OOTS #1300 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

I'm almost willing to bet on the longshot - Belkar dying in this fight and being revived.

Ooh, interesting! He lives, he dies, he lives again!

And then dies again, obvs, but still!

[LuPuWei]

Calder is going to regret it if O-Chul makes it up there

[bunsen_h]

I hope that this final dungeon isn't so close to where Team Evil are that they can hear the fighting, figure out the direction, and create some kind of shortcut. I think it's quite unlikely, but...

[gbaji]

Ten gold on "Belkar doesn't die in this fight".

I am not taking that bet at all. This is not the final fight, so whatever is in store for Belkar isn't going to happen here.

And while not completely impossible, I'm not sure what the narrative value of "someone dies, and is raised" has here. If we assume that all of the members of the Order will be at the final battle, then any of them dying at any point along the way must serve some narrative purpose. We have seen the purpose of both Roy and Durkon's deaths (and to some degree Minrah's as well). At this late stage in the game, there isn't a whole lot of plot or character development to be gained by that.

I hope that this final dungeon isn't so close to where Team Evil are that they can hear the fighting, figure out the direction, and create some kind of shortcut. I think it's quite unlikely, but...

Yeah. Highly unllikely. The dungeons are all buried in the ground around the area, presumably somewhat close, but I'd assume there's enough stone between them to make tunneling from one to the other at least somewhat difficult. Serini designed them to hold a wide variety of different kinds of monsters within them. I'm guessing that there's a lot more than just walls between them, so hearing should be completely out of the question. I don't suppose it rules out "randomly digging and getting lucky", but that was frankly an option for TE to try before they bothered searching the dungeons in the first place.

That we don't see dozens of randomly dug tunnels in the Hollow already suggests that they have decided that "explore the dungeons" is the best way to get to where they are going. I see no reason for them to change that approach now. At the very least, they would finish the Qunton's search before trying something so completely different, and word of Roy says that'll take them another 2-3 days to do that. So yeah... the odds of them "finding a shortcut" before that time period is up, seems extremely small.

[drazen]

What if the Threads of Reality are affecting Calder's horns, much like Worf slipping between alternate universes in Parallels?

Reality is frayed and gets slightly rewritten near the gates. Hence forgetting Blackwing or Calder's horns switching.

Or maybe OOTS meant to reflect a story being by an unreliable narrator with a poor memory! 🤷*

[KorvinStarmast]

I hope that this final dungeon isn't so close to where Team Evil are that they can hear the fighting, figure out the direction, and create some kind of shortcut. I think it's quite unlikely, but...

I like this thought. I have no idea how sound travels in these caves/tunnels/dungeons.

[Menas]

I don't think that panel means what you think it means.

Would be cool if it did though.

[Menas]

A yet-unsaid possibility is that the next strip could involve Calder give Belkar a deal.

Turn against your allies or I eat the lizard. This offer stands for the next six seconds.

That could be fun.

Calder eats BF.
Sunny gets healed and returns to place anti-magic gaze on Calder, from a lot further away.
BF gets revenge. But not the ultimate revenge. Because that would involve killing all of Calder's descendants also. Which would be just plain mean. Maybe even evil.

[Lord Torath]

Ah, gotcha.

In that case, I don't think your assessment of Belkar's abilities against a red dragon squares up.

Also, ignoring that Calder has already hurt Bloodfeast.

And yet, by the end of this, I strongly suspect Calder will no longer be able to eat solid food. Or any food, for that matter. Not that it will be solely due to Belkar, of course.

[Ruck]

In the last 2 strips, the dragon has been on the ground, on his back, tilting his head to look toward the right of the panels. In the previous ones, he was upward and mostly pointed toward the left.
Maybe that change of overall position of the dragon created some confusion between 1298 and 1299, and it has been repeated since he's been mostly static in the last 2 strips?

Yeah. I suspect that the iimages of Calder on his back are flipped horizontally, which is what's causing the flipping of the horns.

I was staring at the images for a fair bit yesterday trying to figure out how they could be flipped or rotated to cause this effect. I guess that's plausible.

(Unrelated, I'll also bet against Belkar dying here. As I probably will continue to do until the final battle. I'm also leaning against Bloodfeast dying; that's much more plausible, but I can't think of and haven't seen suggested any narrative purpose for it.)

[Ghosty]

I'm almost willing to bet on the longshot - Belkar dying in this fight and being revived.

Hmmm. I like it. Maybe he only goes to Limbo or---ROFL---shows up at Bifrost and Thor asks him, "WTF are you doing here?!"

[Liquor Box]

I'm also betting against Belkar dying. He is one of the six main protagonists. It would be a poor end for him to die facing some monster in the dungeon, and then miss the final boss, when les important characters like Minrah, Serini and the paladins make it.

[KorvinStarmast]

--shows up at Bifrost and Thor asks him, "WTF are you doing here?!"

Minrah would put in a good word for him.

[enh]

In strip 0008, healing potion stolen form Belkar and fed to Elan was green.

It's also not the same shape as any other glass bottle in the entire history of the strip, and it's the size of Haley's torso. I'm ignoring it as "predating when the Giant started treating the plot seriously".

[Coppercloud]

And while not completely impossible, I'm not sure what the narrative value of "someone dies, and is raised" has here.

I was going for the most unlikely event, but it might actually make sense. It would be another red herring after Belkar's confrontation with Malack and his fall in the Godsmoot, and it would establish that at this point the Order would save him. Which would contrast his final death, where his body or soul would be unavailable.

It's also not the same shape as any other glass bottle in the entire history of the strip, and it's the size of Haley's torso. I'm ignoring it as "predating when the Giant started treating the plot seriously".

That's always a good take for the early strips, I think. We'll probably see the effect of Vaarsuvius's potion soon, and if it isn't spelled out then we can chalk it up as "unusual-looking health potion" - it certainly looks different than the one basic potion that Haley acquired a hundred strips ago.

[Euan]

"Gnaw gnaw gnaw" is hilarious.

And if anything happens to lizard-sized Bloodfeast I will probably cry.

[Hish]

V also had an odd healing potion in the BRitF pit scene. It was orange instead of green but there's some precedent.

[Metastachydium]

V also had an odd healing potion in the BRitF pit scene. It was orange instead of green but there's some precedent.

That's not even the only one of its sort.

[Tzardok]

It may depends on the potion's strength. A potion: cure light wounds may be red, a potion: cure serious moderate wounds orange, a potion: cure critical serious wounds green.

Wait, can one make cure critical wounds into a potion, or is it too high level?Edit: No, you can't.

[arimareiji]

And yet, by the end of this, I strongly suspect Calder will no longer be able to eat solid food. Or any food, for that matter. Not that it will be solely due to Belkar, of course.

Too soon to say. If Team Evil comes this way, he might become partial to braaaaains.

Or, a nasty thought (which I severely doubt the Giant would implement): If V doesn't disintegrate the body and someone scoops it up and pours it into the faux acid… Redcloak might Speak With Dead when they see a body they didn't create, to gain intel. Somehow Calder conveys how much he'd love to join them, and one Raise Dead later he becomes a member of Team Evil - always hiring.

[SlashDash]

From the art, it looks like Calder could have tail smashed Sunny pretty much no matter where they were. On the ground made sense, since Minrah wanted to be with Sunny (maybe helping out, healing, etc)

Thinking it over, perhaps it was a good idea because with Bloodfeast on top of Calder, Sunny would need a better angle for his ray, otherwise possibly Bloodfest would still be in the anti-magic but Calder won't.

I'd be shocked if this dungeon isn't hundreds of feet down under the ground through solid rock. Smashing a wall is one thing. Tunneling through a moutainside is a completely different one. It's kind of the quandary that Calder is in. Even if he wins/escapes, where does he go? We don't actually know where the exit to this place is.

The main issue I'm saying this is because as I said before - the odds of Team Evil just going through the front door and facing all of Serini's traps is 0. There is no way in heck that's going to happen.

Something need to happen to let Team Evil get straight to the point.
Calder getting out just seems like a good way to make that happen.

They're both highly capable melee combatants. Calder, being a dragon, has tons of HPs, and decreasing those HPs is about the only way to defeat him.

Having two more people with strong melee attacks would seem to be incredibly useful in this situation. Paladins get the same to-hit tables as fighters, so even if they don't have weapons on the same level as Roy's, they'll still be a significant asset to fighting against a dragon.

Are they that capable? Compared to the far more optimal party around them? I don't think so.
And again, without the anti-magic ray - and bloodfest keeping him down, Calder will take flight obviously. Thus making all of the melee combat nearly impossible. Lien has a crossbow, but she's not as good as Haley with it. O-Chul's entire build is suboptimal on purpose.

Their BAB just means they get bonus to hit - they don't get bonus to damage. Unlike fighters and rangers, they don't get bonus feats. Unlike Barbarians, they don't get damage boosts. They get the mounts and spells, none of which apply here.

Paladins do get protection from evil as a first level spell. And it does seem to be a pretty obvious one for a paladin to have ready.

O-Chul can't cast spells. He has abysmal Charisma score and we know he multiclassed into Paladin. He doesn't even have a mount.

As I said, I don't know Lien's stats, but she has a mount so she's at least paladin 5. No clue if she multiclassed or not. But we have never seen her cast a spell that I recall. And more notably, they need to cast that before being taken over.

I would say if anything, the fact that Minrah wasted her cast could be the Chekov's gun that another domination is coming and she's out (whether Durkon memorized one or not is also an issue)

Paladins also get good saves, and get bonuses to saves (ok, maybe O'chul might not get much of this bonus). If anything, they are the least likely to actually be dominated or affected by spells of any kind of just about anyone in the party.

Quite the opposite. Paladins have an abysmal track record with saving throws in this story.
Thanh fell to Tsukiko's domination. The entire saphire guard went down due to Xykon's insanity symbol.
O-Chul himself was paralyzed by Xykon. O-Chul and Lien both fell to Serini's poison.

Probably other examples I'm forgetting.

When has a paladin managed to get a good save in this story?


Also note that if anything, dwarven clerics are expected to be extra resistant to saves and pure fighters being usually weak to will saves. Yet against the vampires - Roy saved and Hilga didn't.

If the author wants them to roll a 1, they will roll a 1.

[Kish]

Also note that if anything, dwarven clerics are expected to be extra resistant to saves and pure fighters being usually weak to will saves. Yet against the vampires - Roy saved and Hilga didn't.

Roy did not save. Roy was affected by a Mind Blank, a level 8 spell from a caster level 17 wizard. Hilgya was affected by a Protection from Law from a wand (caster level 1 unless she paid more than the default price for a wand with a higher caster level and didn't mention it). The vampires launched a barrage of mostly low-caster-level Dispel Magics, the item-based Protection from Evil and Law spells were removed, the Mind Blanks stayed.

[arimareiji]

If the author wants them to roll a 1, they will roll a 1.

At least nominally, saving throws represent the element of random chance. Random chance that can be skewed by bonuses and penalties and many other things, yes, but random chance nonetheless.

"Random chance" is the meat and drink of storytellers. But the overwhelming majority of stories that occur by actual random chance… are pretty boring, which is why the ones people tell you IRL usually start with "You're not going to believe what just happened!". (^_~)

_{Edit: Got caught in lag halfway between. Sympathies to the server, which seems to be struggling under the weight of our enthusiasm for the latest chapter.}

[Tzardok]

Their BAB just means they get bonus to hit - they don't get bonus to damage. Unlike fighters and rangers, they don't get bonus feats. Unlike Barbarians, they don't get damage boosts. They get the mounts and spells, none of which apply here.

They get Smite Evil, which does grant a damage boost.

O-Chul can't cast spells. He has abysmal Charisma score and we know he multiclassed into Paladin. He doesn't even have a mount.

Paladins cast from Wisdom, and O-Chul's Wis should be high enough. If there's something keeping him from casting it's him not having enough class levels.

Quite the opposite. Paladins have an abysmal track record with saving throws in this story.
Thanh fell to Tsukiko's domination. The entire saphire guard went down due to Xykon's insanity symbol.
O-Chul himself was paralyzed by Xykon. O-Chul and Lien both fell to Serini's poison.

The fact that most of them blew their saves doesn't mean that paladins in general don't have high saves, as they get their Cha as a bonus to saves. (So O-Chul's out of luck.)

[SlashDash]

Roy did not save. Roy was affected by a Mind Blank

I was referring to #1001 and also a reminder that Durkon specifically wondered if Mr Scruffy could get just Roy and not anyone else to fight Malack. He expected Roy to make a save.

The point is that just because something is stereotypical - like paladins having good saves - doesn't mean it's in effect in the story or in particular scenes with particular characters.

They get Smite Evil, which does grant a damage boost.

If the anti-magic ray is on, they can't Smite Evil.
If the anti-magic ray is off, Calder will fly and be out of melee range just like he was at the start of combat.

Either way, there will be no smiting.

Also not to kick a man when he is down, but O-Chul's smite evil isn't that great. He gains no bonus to hit (poor Charisma) and adds his paladin level to damage which we know can't be more than 4 at most.

I'm not saying Paladins are terrible characters, heck, Soon was the only being in the entire story that got Xykon scared enough to try and run away.

In this situation, they are not really helpful.
Unless of course, the author has some amazing trick up their sleeve.
But that would make it more likely to be something unrelated to them being paladins.



Lien is specialized in aquatic combat. Sure, she's standing in water now - and that might have been intentional by the author - but the assumption the original poster referred to is a situation where she'll get out of it.

And O-Chul's specialty is being a tank - something that isn't useful against a giant monster with massive AOE power that can fly out of range.
If they block his flight and spellcasting, then they got a dino to do a better job.

Paladins cast from Wisdom, and O-Chul's Wis should be high enough. If there's something keeping him from casting it's him not having enough class levels.

Not having enough levels is exactly a reason not to cast spells. He needs to be at least paladin 4 to cast assuming he has a bonus to wisdom score.

Also, I'll repeat again - have we seen either of them cast a spell? Ever?
Lien is at least paladin 5, so she has spells. Sure. But we haven't seen her use them.

The fact that most of them blew their saves doesn't mean that paladins in general don't have high saves, as they get their Cha as a bonus to saves. (So O-Chul's out of luck.)

The fact that we have seen something happen most of the time doesn't mean it happens most of the time?


Just to be clear here -

I'm not saying that it has to be that they'll be dominated.
What I am saying is that seeing them now and assuming they'll be part of the action seems like a safe bet.

But they aren't changing the tide of battle - they can't. They are not equipped to be a major impact in this particular situation.

Paladins have the problem of being:
1) Very magic dependent
2) Very melee dependent - Lien's crossbow barely did anything to Oona. Calder is on another level entirely.

They are also not the main characters, just side kicks.

So it's likely that something else will be done with them.
I merely suggest that they'll be dominated because that it Calder's schtick and Haley's bluff got him to stop doing it for the party, but new comers might make him go for it again.

[Tubercular Ox]

Saha Kapoor in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished never visibly cast a spell, but she spoke with animals all the time. Maybe Rich was testing out a style for half casters?

I don't know that this changes the current argument at all, but it nags at me every time someone says we've never seen the Paladins cast a spell.

[Shining Wrath]

Professional, albeit old, boxer vs whatever Jake Paul is. Tyson 'should' be devastating. One/two combinations against someone not similarly trained, and this fight would be over. As it would if, e.g., Floyd Meriwether or Oscar De La Hoya were Paul's opponent. But that wouldn't be entertaining.

Even older professional athletes in person often seem otherworldly with just how fast they can move and how strong and precise they are.

All I was doing with the quote was agreeing that Calder probably vowed to never submit again, but pain (like the pain of having a dinosaur grab your windpipe) has a way of changing minds.

He needs to live for a bit, anyway, as I'm sure he has a few bon mots to reveal about Serini, the Scribble, the Gates, and the Snarl. Who knows what he learned from those he mind-controlled? Maybe we can learn a bit more about V, V's omnicide, and how that is or isn't working out?

Can't wait.

Once upon a time I had a realtor who had played a few seasons for the Broncos as a running back. When I knew him he was in his 60's.
He was helping me move some stuff out of my house, which he had sold for me, and we were loading it into the back of a truck with a ramp. He turned, caught his foot on a lip, and started to fall.
At 60 something he was quick enough to get his hands out in front of him and do a cartwheel down the ramp. Now, this was a half-assed cartwheel, he didn't get his feet all the way up above his head, the North Korean judge gave him a '1' - but turning a trip and fall into a cartwheel, on a ramp rather than level ground, in the split second he had to realize he'd tripped - I was impressed.

[bunsen_h]

Quite the opposite. Paladins have an abysmal track record with saving throws in this story.
Thanh fell to Tsukiko's domination. The entire saphire guard went down due to Xykon's insanity symbol.
O-Chul himself was paralyzed by Xykon. O-Chul and Lien both fell to Serini's poison.

Probably other examples I'm forgetting.

When has a paladin managed to get a good save in this story?

O-Chul wasn't affected by the Symbol of Insanity. And learned Xykon's spell list "one saving throw at a time". He's got really good CON and appears to have pretty good WIS; he managed to break free of Xykon's Mass Hold Person. He might do okay against Calder's attempts to dominate.

Also note that if anything, dwarven clerics are expected to be extra resistant to saves and pure fighters being usually weak to will saves. Yet against the vampires - Roy saved and Hilga didn't.

If the author wants them to roll a 1, they will roll a 1.

"And once again, Probability proves itself willing to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper-piece harlot."

At 60 something he was quick enough to get his hands out in front of him and do a cartwheel down the ramp. Now, this was a half-assed cartwheel, he didn't get his feet all the way up above his head, the North Korean judge gave him a '1' - but turning a trip and fall into a cartwheel, on a ramp rather than level ground, in the split second he had to realize he'd tripped - I was impressed.

"I meant to do that." (Lyrics)

[Metastachydium]

Not having enough levels is exactly a reason not to cast spells. He needs to be at least paladin 4 to cast assuming he has a bonus to wisdom score.

Also, I'll repeat again - have we seen either of them cast a spell? Ever?
Lien is at least paladin 5, so she has spells. Sure. But we haven't seen her use them.

Not that I remember, anyhow, but that's largely irrwlwvant. We know she can cast spells, because she's told us that much, and quite explicitly.

O-Chul wasn't affected by the Symbol of Insanity. And learned Xykon's spell list "one saving throw at a time". He's got really good CON and appears to have pretty good WIS; he managed to break free of Xykon's Mass Hold Person. He might do okay against Calder's attempts to dominate.

Yep. In terms of Fort, we're likely looking at something above +15 for a modifier if he's naked, assuming no feats or such to boost it. Serini got really lucky with that poison, and even then it took an awful long time for it to take effect. As for Wis, beyond the thing with the Symbol, O-Chul, of all poeple, getting dominated sounds, narratively speaking, very unlikely. That's not an O-Chul thing to do.

[Thecommander236]

I think I see what's going to happen.

Sunny is going to convey O Chul and Lian into the battle, and Serini is going to learn that these Paladins are not quite as Lawful Stupid as Soon. This will enhance trust of the Order both in terms of "able to face Xykon" and also "Hey, these people aren't stupid".

To be fair, Soon wasn't Lawful Stupid either. It was stupid of Serini trying to use the dragon as one of her guards in the first place.