OOTS #1300 - The Discussion Thread

[hroþila]

I don't think the Mirkwood Elves are more serious, it's just that we see them in more serious situations (catching intruders as opposed to receiving guests, plus being in an army and fighting a battle and what not) but before that what we see is a buncha Mirkwood Elves throwing a party in the forest and one guard drinking himself to sleep, as you allude to

Tolkien's elves are more attuned to nature and they care deeply about trees and stuff, but the latter at least would also apply to a lesser or greater extent to most of the Free Folk. I wouldn't be surprised if the tree-hugging elf archetype came in no small part from the later association of LotR with hippies

[Metastachydium]

Speaking of which, does anyone know where the mechanics for alcohol are in 3.5e? I know that it's mechanically treated as a poison.

Cityscape and A&EG, if memory serves.

(Actual absinthe contains thujone, which is indeed a toxic chemical. Whether or not thujone actually has the effects the absinthe drinkers of legend claim it does is very much up for debate, though.)

I've heard that most of its effects are largely due to being alcoholic rather than any other properties. Either way I don't think they'd be very nice to V and their poor Fortitude saves though.

People shouldn't overvalue thujone. It's also in thyme and rosemary, and nobody claims those are toxic.

It's actually not a myth, in all likelihood, but it has nothing to do with thujone, less to do with alcohol than you'd think, and even less to do with real absinthe. The issues reported likely arose from counterfeit absinthes being coloured green with copper-based chemicals.

[KorvinStarmast]

I wouldn't be surprised if the tree-hugging elf archetype came in no small part from the later association of LotR with hippies

Runequest elves were very "nature centric" sorts. Also, elves in forests are a deeply ingrained bit of European legendarium all over the continent, not just in English folk lore.

[ The issues reported likely arose from counterfeit absinthes being coloured green with copper-based chemicals.

Gives "a penny for your thoughts" a new meaning.

[gbaji]

Runequest elves were very "nature centric" sorts. Also, elves in forests are a deeply ingrained bit of European legendarium all over the continent, not just in English folk lore.

Though, to be fair, like 3" tall (not the Runequest elves, the lore based ones).

[KorvinStarmast]

Though, to be fair, like 3" tall (not the Runequest elves, the lore based ones).

Those are fairies and pixies more often than elves. But "elves are smaller than humans" as a general principle seems to be a continental baseline. Their size seemed to vary a bit in the British Isles various legendaria. (Tam Lin and the Faerie queen being but one example ...)

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think you're all getting it wrong: Vaarsuvius is drinking alcohol. It's been a tough day after all.

Why not both? Anybody who says alcohol isn't a solution failed chemistry. People would even sometimes say that alcohol was healthy with a straight face.

. I think the bit about absinthe being poisonous (beyond the alcohol) is an urban myth but it’d still mess them up nastily with their Con penalty, wouldn’t it?

The story about it being a hallucinogen is false; although lots of things were included in absinthe before food regulations.

Traditional absinthe contains thujone, which is toxic, but all told would be significantly less toxic than the alcohol. America and the EU limit the amount of thujone to less than a 100th of what traditional absinthe had.

Speaking of which, does anyone know where the mechanics for alcohol are in 3.5e? I know that it's mechanically treated as a poison.

There are no mechanics, and it's a good thing there aren't. Murderhobos would never drink if there was a concrete penalty.

Also, nobody wants to do nuances of how drunk you are (# of ounces of alcohol * 500/ (con score * weight) = # sheets to the wind, see chart for consqeuences of being 1-4 sheets to the wind; wait should we roll something? DO dwarves get a bonus?)Red dragon inn not withstanding

Actually, where did the tree-hugger elf trope start from in the first place? D&D?

Folklore, probably starting with the start of the iron age.

With the romantic movement of the 19th century both elves and nature became "good".

People shouldn't overvalue thujone. It's also in thyme and rosemary, and nobody claims those are toxic.

People used to believe they were magic, as immortalized in the most famous song about a love potion.

[gbaji]

One of my general responses whenever someone says "X substance is toxic!" is to note that Everything is toxic. The poison is in the dose.

It's one of those meaningless phrases that people use all the time, usually because they think it's meaningful, or important, or... something. It's also a statement that can be used to place unwarranted weight on the dangers of one thing versus antother, even when those aren't actually relevant at all (see dihydrogen monoxide for an example of how easily this can be manipulated). So the moment someone says "be afraid of X, because it's toxic!" the next question(s) that should come to mind should be "how toxic? Toxic to whom/what? In what dosage? In what enviornment?".

Otherwise, we could be just taking about water, right? Or Oxygen. Or.... well.... anything and everything that exists in the world around us.

So... Absinthe is toxic, if it includes certain chemicals within it (usually related to storage or processing, and not the liquor itself), and those chemicals exceed a specific dosage. Similarly, alcohol is toxic, but only if it exceeds specific levels for human consumption (and honestly usually has more to do with processing, and whether there's ethanol in there). A glass of wine a day not only isn't going to kill you, but does arguably have some health benefits. A fifth of vodka a day, on the other hand...

Can make the same points about coffee, chocolate, carbs, proteins, sugars, and pretty much everything else one might consume in some way. The poison is in the dose.

So... long meandering way to say that V could certainly decide to consume wine as desired, or even absinthe as well. In moderation, of course! And hey! This is a fantasy world with magic healing spells. So... no way to know how easy it may be to deal with many health issues related to such things anyway. Does a single use of cure poison resolve years of liver damge from overdrinking? Dunno. Not even sure to what degree the game system really cares about stuff like this.

[konradknox]

I just love that Bloodfeast's time has come! I was re-reading the desert chapter where they tamed him and were running away from Tarquin and his crew.

[KorvinStarmast]

One of my general responses whenever someone says "X substance is toxic!" is to note that Everything is toxic. The poison is in the dose.

"The danger is in the dose" is what our flight surgeon used to say.

I learned about water poisoning during desert survival training.

[Ruck]

It's actually not a myth, in all likelihood, but it has nothing to do with thujone, less to do with alcohol than you'd think, and even less to do with real absinthe. The issues reported likely arose from counterfeit absinthes being coloured green with copper-based chemicals.

Huh! Never heard this before, but it at least makes sense on the surface to me.

[Errorname]

Tolkien's elves are more attuned to nature and they care deeply about trees and stuff, but the latter at least would also apply to a lesser or greater extent to most of the Free Folk. I wouldn't be surprised if the tree-hugging elf archetype came in no small part from the later association of LotR with hippies

Yeah, it's one of those things that is based on an element of Tolkien's work which his imitators picked up on and flanderized into it's current form

[jokem]

I am wondering if any of the casters have Dispel Magic and if that would work on Bloodfeast?
I recall V suggested greater dispel was prepared.

[brian 333]

I am wondering if any of the casters have Dispel Magic and if that would work on Bloodfeast?
I recall V suggested greater dispel was prepared.

But do they have Baleful Polymorph to return him to a more portable size? Or is your plan to leave full-sized Bloodfeast in this room permanently?

[Menas]

I noticed just now that nobody is recalling that starshine is the heroine among polymorphed lizards, and no dragon should dare to eat those small reptiles when in front of them stays the Pointy Death Incarnate.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html

Which can be topped off by Vaarsuvius changing into a lizard, casting suggestion on Calder, and ordering him to vomit up BF (while aiming for the halfling).

[Menas]

So if Calder swallowed Bloodfeast whole, then swallowed Sunny whole, and Sunny used his AMF gaze on Bloodfeast inside Calder's stomach, Bloodfeast could expand and blow Calder into pieces.

Since the AMF gaze is treated as a 'field', then I believe it applies to anything within the field, whether it's inside someone else's stomach or not.

[danielxcutter]

It's probably been mentioned like three times in this thread alone, but no it wouldn't; there isn't line of effect or line of sight.

[KorvinStarmast]

Which can be topped off by Vaarsuvius changing into a lizard, casting suggestion on Calder, and ordering him to vomit up BF (while aiming for the halfling).

That would be hilarious.

[Shining Wrath]

One of my general responses whenever someone says "X substance is toxic!" is to note that Everything is toxic. The poison is in the dose.

It's one of those meaningless phrases that people use all the time, usually because they think it's meaningful, or important, or... something. It's also a statement that can be used to place unwarranted weight on the dangers of one thing versus antother, even when those aren't actually relevant at all (see dihydrogen monoxide for an example of how easily this can be manipulated). So the moment someone says "be afraid of X, because it's toxic!" the next question(s) that should come to mind should be "how toxic? Toxic to whom/what? In what dosage? In what enviornment?".

Otherwise, we could be just taking about water, right? Or Oxygen. Or.... well.... anything and everything that exists in the world around us.

So... Absinthe is toxic, if it includes certain chemicals within it (usually related to storage or processing, and not the liquor itself), and those chemicals exceed a specific dosage. Similarly, alcohol is toxic, but only if it exceeds specific levels for human consumption (and honestly usually has more to do with processing, and whether there's ethanol in there). A glass of wine a day not only isn't going to kill you, but does arguably have some health benefits. A fifth of vodka a day, on the other hand...

Can make the same points about coffee, chocolate, carbs, proteins, sugars, and pretty much everything else one might consume in some way. The poison is in the dose.

So... long meandering way to say that V could certainly decide to consume wine as desired, or even absinthe as well. In moderation, of course! And hey! This is a fantasy world with magic healing spells. So... no way to know how easy it may be to deal with many health issues related to such things anyway. Does a single use of cure poison resolve years of liver damge from overdrinking? Dunno. Not even sure to what degree the game system really cares about stuff like this.

Also, everything is radioactive. Photons are a form of radioactivity and everything with a temperature above absolute zero radiates them.

[bunsen_h]

Also, everything is radioactive. Photons are a form of radioactivity and everything with a temperature above absolute zero radiates them.

High-energy photons — gamma rays — are a form of radioactivity. There's a degree of flexibility in the definitions of what photons are considered to be gamma rays, depending on the subject under consideration. But not all photons qualify.

Now, if you're talking about a true black body, yes, there is nominally some gamma emission at any temperature above absolute zero. But true black-body objects don't exist, though I suppose a black hole might come close.

It's actually not a myth, in all likelihood, but it has nothing to do with thujone, less to do with alcohol than you'd think, and even less to do with real absinthe. The issues reported likely arose from counterfeit absinthes being coloured green with copper-based chemicals.

Good ol' copper arsenate!

[gbaji]

It's probably been mentioned like three times in this thread alone, but no it wouldn't; there isn't line of effect or line of sight.

See... I get this in an absolute sense, but not in a practical one. There's some wiggle room here, that lies somewhere betweeen "solid walls block AMF from extending to the other side of the wall", and "squishy/softt/thin things block the AMF as well".

So... If I hold up a sheet between me and Sunny, can I block the AMF and cast spells?

What if I have a ring of regeneration on my finger and am wearing a glove on that hand? Does clothing block AMF? So... I wear a beekeeper suit and I"m golden?

One either has to rule that "a person and all objects on/in their person" is in the AMF, or... not. I would tend to rule that if Caulder's body is in the AMF, then anything inside his body is also in the AMF. And yes, that would include someone/thing that he has swallowed. Ruling otherwise runs you down a rabbit hole of increasingly strange rulings.

I'd say that solid walls/floors block AMF, but nothing else (maybe a cabinet would work maybe?). I would certainly *not* rule that living beings bodies block AMF at all. Again, because otherwise, you get into silly territory with the effect.

[JonahFalcon]

Kind of easy to see where this is going.

V will cast Dispel Magic on Bloodfeast, who kills the dragon.

However, this will mean Bloodfeast will no longer be able to follow, so the party loses a potent member.

[Metastachydium]

Huh! Never heard this before, but it at least makes sense on the surface to me.

Back in my edgy high school days (mercifully) long past, I was rather fascinated by absinthe because it's usually green (I never saw the appeal of the red version, let alone the boring colourless "bleu" one) and very potent, so I know this and that about the thing since. And the more I learned about the nature of copper posioning in the meantime, the more the whole notion seems to track.

Good ol' copper arsenate!

Ah, I knew we can trust the resident chemist to make it sound even worse!

[brian 333]

See... I get this in an absolute sense, but not in a practical one. There's some wiggle room here, that lies somewhere betweeen "solid walls block AMF from extending to the other side of the wall", and "squishy/softt/thin things block the AMF as well".

So... If I hold up a sheet between me and Sunny, can I block the AMF and cast spells?

What if I have a ring of regeneration on my finger and am wearing a glove on that hand? Does clothing block AMF? So... I wear a beekeeper suit and I"m golden?

One either has to rule that "a person and all objects on/in their person" is in the AMF, or... not. I would tend to rule that if Caulder's body is in the AMF, then anything inside his body is also in the AMF. And yes, that would include someone/thing that he has swallowed. Ruling otherwise runs you down a rabbit hole of increasingly strange rulings.

I'd say that solid walls/floors block AMF, but nothing else (maybe a cabinet would work maybe?). I would certainly *not* rule that living beings bodies block AMF at all. Again, because otherwise, you get into silly territory with the effect.

You are applying logic, thus your confusion.

Cones emit in a cone from the source, and anything that blocks that 'shadows' whatever is behind it. There are drawings of how this works. However, within the AoE, there can be 'wraparound' so the effect might fill in behind an obstruction at least to some extent.

The problem with the bee-suit is that anything worn is part of the character, not a separate object. This leads to craziness like a sheet of glass in a window protecting a character from a Medusa's gaze, but a tower shield not doing so.

When it comes to understanding The Rules of Magic, it is best to avoid Logic until you cannot find a rule that covers the situation.

[Tzardok]

The problem with the bee-suit is that anything worn is part of the character, not a separate object. This leads to craziness like a sheet of glass in a window protecting a character from a Medusa's gaze, but a tower shield not doing so.

I'm not sure how you came up with that. A tower shield can explicitely be used to grant the wielder total cover, thereby breaking line of effect (with the special exception for targetting spells. So it can't hide you from, for example, a magic missile, but it blocks explosion type effects). And gaze attacks follow line of sight, not line of effect. Concealment defends against it, but cover not (unless it is opaque).

[brian 333]

I'm not sure how you came up with that. A tower shield can explicitely be used to grant the wielder total cover, thereby breaking line of effect (with the special exception for targetting spells. So it can't hide you from, for example, a magic missile, but it blocks explosion type effects). And gaze attacks follow line of sight, not line of effect. Concealment defends against it, but cover not (unless it is opaque).

You can stand in the open behind a sheet of glass and look at a Medusa. Otherwise, you have to not look at a Medusa whether you are hiding behind the shield or not.

Tower shields are great for lots of things. They don't really help with gaze attacks.

[Tzardok]

You can stand in the open behind a sheet of glass and look at a Medusa.

Says what? Really, tell me, where does it say that gaze attacks which we know can penetrate the borders of planes (you can be petrified by a medusa when looking at her from the Ethereal) can't go through transparant barriers?

Tower shields are great for lots of things. They don't really help with gaze attacks.

Sure they do. You set it up to make a total cover. Bamm! You've got an opaque barrier that keeps you from seeing it. Sure, to attack you need to leave lean around it, reducing it to cover and exposing you to the gaze, but if you don't want to attack it works just as well as a blindfold or just closing your eyes.

[gbaji]

The problem with the bee-suit is that anything worn is part of the character, not a separate object.

I would argue that the same rule applies to "things inside your stomach".

[Tzardok]

I would argue that the same rule applies to "things inside your stomach".

"Things" inside your stomach, maybe. But living (or undead, or animated) creatures are never a part of the outside creature. To the rules, a creature and an object are very different things.

[brian 333]

Says what? Really, tell me, where does it say that gaze attacks which we know can penetrate the borders of planes (you can be petrified by a medusa when looking at her from the Ethereal) can't go through transparant barriers?



Sure they do. You set it up to make a total cover. Bamm! You've got an opaque barrier that keeps you from seeing it. Sure, to attack you need to leave lean around it, reducing it to cover and exposing you to the gaze, but if you don't want to attack it works just as well as a blindfold or just closing your eyes.

https://media.wizards.com/2017/podca...01_19_2017.mp3

It is actually something I did not believe until I was informed on these forums.

[gbaji]

"Things" inside your stomach, maybe. But living (or undead, or animated) creatures are never a part of the outside creature. To the rules, a creature and an object are very different things.

Honestly? Not really seeing the distinction, especially if it actually makes running things more difficult and not less.

The real question is "what kind of material blocks the effect of an AMF?" IMO. This is not the same as some kind of burst type effect. An AMF equally affects everything and everybody within the defined "area" of the effect itself. The idea that this is somehow blocked, or will create a "magic area within an area no magic works" is strange all by itself. I actually have a hard time accepting even walls and floors blocking this effect (it's not physical, or causing damage, or billowing out in a cloud or anything, right?). But the idea that a living body does?

Nah. Not seeing it. Everything in the area is affected by the AMF. Every Thing. Period. No exceptions. Putting something in a pot with a lid on it? Still affected. Swallowing it? Still affected. It's just a vastly easier way of running the effect. As I said earlier, otherwise you have to eternally carve out exceptions, and then exceptions to the exceptions, etc, etc, etc.

Why would an object inside someone be affected, but not a living being inside someone? And is it really about "someone"? What if I wrap myself in living skin? Am I immune? What if I swim along inside a gelatinout cube? I'm fine now? Dunno. Just seems silly.