The Four Corners of Redemption

[Naysmith]

Soon never said anything like that.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html, the deal has been closed out.

[wilphe]

Yep once you are dead you stop developing or changing

You are who you are, you get some time to work out your baggage and fleshy urges but all that's left is the slow fade into the essence of the outer planes.

[Ionathus]

I'm pretty sure Rich talks about this somewhere. IIRC, he says that, if he let Miko live, the only stories he would've written for her were either full redemption or a full commitment to evil, and he killed her off specifically to avoid her getting either of those endings.

I would be interested to read that analysis if you (or someone else) can find it! I've always liked reading the thoughts behind his writing choices, and that one sounds unfamiliar to me.

[Local_Jerk]

I actually don't think it's too late for Redcloak, for a few reasons:

Spoiler

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1) Thor's Plan doesn't actually need the Dark One; just his power, which Redcloak can channel. Provided he has a 9th-level slot available near the climax, Redcloak can actually turn against his deity to help save the planet. He probably won't be granted any new spells after that, if not lose his powers and status entirely - but he'd still be a hero.

2) Narratively, Redcloak's entire character is built around Sunk Cost Fallacy - feeling he has to stay the course because all the bad things he has caused for the goblin people (including his family) along the way would "be for nothing" otherwise. So for him to finally realize that, no actually, anyone can choose to change who they are and start being a better person at any time no matter what they did before, would be a satisfying direction to take his narrative arc and a good lesson for the fiction to impart.

3) The Dark One himself seems a bit more sinister than the comic is letting on; sure, his own dogma paints him as a champion of the oppressed goblinoids who ascended due to the world's sheer injustice, but we only have his word for it that that's how things actually went down. Moreover, his actions since then (including but not limited to his rather cold treatment of his own high priest, and not seeming to care very much about goblins sacrificed to the plan) have not exactly lined up with the supposedly benevolent image the goblins have of him. In a sense he reminds me of Shar, duping his worshipers into believing she has their best interests at heart more than every other deity while in reality, discarding them the moment they're no longer useful.

Yeah, no. I'm pretty sure the truth is the complete opposite of what you just said. I think TDO would be more than open to a compromise if he knew everything, and that Redcloack's hypocrisy and declining morals are actually disappointing him.

[Tubercular Ox]

I would be interested to read that analysis if you (or someone else) can find it! I've always liked reading the thoughts behind his writing choices, and that one sounds unfamiliar to me.

I screwed it up a bit, of course:

I’m not going to say too much about Miko’s death. Most of what I had to say about Miko herself, I’ve already mentioned in the previous pages. What I will say is that there are two commonly seen storylines when a heroic character falls from grace (be they a paladin, a jedi, or something else): either they choose to fall even further and become a true villain, or they struggle and redeem themselves. Often, they do both, in that order. I thought Miko should be unique as someone who falls from grace, but never gets the opportunity to redeem herself. It stands as a reminder that unlike the heroes in those redemption stories, you or I don’t always get the chance to fix our mistakes before we die. It’s important to consider our actions as we’re doing them, because our number could be up at any minute. Would she have been capable of changing? Would she have become a villain? We don’t know.

[Ionathus]

I screwed it up a bit, of course:

This is great -- thank you!

Yeah, no. I'm pretty sure the truth is the complete opposite of what you just said. I think TDO would be more than open to a compromise if he knew everything, and that Redcloack's hypocrisy and declining morals are actually disappointing him.

I still don't think we have enough (or nearly any, really) info about The Dark One to make a judgment of whether He is more or less "all in" on the plan than Redcloak. I genuinely think it could break either way, and either way would be interesting to watch -- not sure if I have a preferred outcome. Thor's side of the story seems to indicate that TDO is not interested in playing ball with the other gods at all, and will be totally committed to the Snarl Hostage plan. But weirdly, Redcloak's version of TDO's mortal life (and Jirix's story of his afterlife conversation) almost sets up TDO as more reasonable than Redcloak, and likely to work with Thor if he can get what he wants.

[Kardwill]

Yeah, the fact that TDO has completely and abruptly cut communication with every one of his former allies and kills on sight any emissary doesn't sound promising.

He could be angry about the fact they hid the Snarl from him, or he could simply think he doesn't need to play nice anymore if he can simply blackmail everygod. But both of those explanations mean he's not likely to listen to reason.

Note that he's never been directly "onstrip" the way Thor or Hel have been, though. Even in the strips he appears in, he's "narrated" by someone else. And every direct info we have about him comes from unreliable narrators : his devoted priest (Jirix), his enemy who barely knows him (Thor), and a god of deceit (Loki). So "who is really TDO?" or, more importantly "WWTDOD" are kinda unclear for the moment.

[SlashDash]

Put in the camp that thinks there's a likelihood that the Dark One is *less* evil than assumed not more.
I mean he is still evil, but as horrible as some people here think.

There's obviously a reason why Redcloak mentioned several times in panel that he does not get direct communication from The Dark One when we have seen that Odin, Hel, Thor and Loki can talk to their clerics.


Also, I highly doubt Redcloak is going to survive this story. He'll enact Thor's plan, but will die shortly after.
Having Redcloak die just help tie everything in a neat little bow. He doesn't get to live after all the evil he has done and on the other hand, him eventually doing the right thing will lead to the ultimate wish of all clerics - to finally be with his god.

[Dummy]

Mmm... I don't think Redcloack can get a redemption, not before the end at least.

He is too far gone into his own plans and acording to him if he abandons them everything he has worked for will have been for nothing. For him to actually realize that he is wrong he won't need a realitzation, he will need all his efforts to become pointless.

I think that what would be required to happen is that he "wins" somehow, he would complete the ritual and teleport the Gate to The Dark One or atleast something close enought, but to do that he would need to channel The Dark One's power and that would be enought Purple color to seal the Gate forever, basically meaning that the plan was flawed from the start because both Redcloack and The Dark One didn't had enought information because they both refused to listen to others.

Once he had both "won" and "lost" then he would had completed his mission while not acomplishing his objective, forcing him to either change and force himself to think about what he has done or break and lash out.

[brian 333]

Put in the camp that thinks there's a likelihood that the Dark One is *less* evil than assumed not more.
I mean he is still evil, but as horrible as some people here think.

There's obviously a reason why Redcloak mentioned several times in panel that he does not get direct communication from The Dark One when we have seen that Odin, Hel, Thor and Loki can talk to their clerics.


Also, I highly doubt Redcloak is going to survive this story. He'll enact Thor's plan, but will die shortly after.
Having Redcloak die just help tie everything in a neat little bow. He doesn't get to live after all the evil he has done and on the other hand, him eventually doing the right thing will lead to the ultimate wish of all clerics - to finally be with his god.

TDO does not talk to Redcloak because Redcloak does not call. On the first opportunity he had TDO did send Redcloak a message. It is not TDO's refusal to talk to Redcloak that is the issue; it is Redcloak's unwillingness to cast a Commune spell.

[Coppercloud]

I think that what would be required to happen is that he "wins" somehow, he would complete the ritual and teleport the Gate to The Dark One or at least something close enough, but to do that he would need to channel The Dark One's power and that would be enough Purple color to seal the Gate forever, basically meaning that the plan was flawed from the start because both Redcloak and The Dark One didn't had enough information because they both refused to listen to others.

Once he had both "won" and "lost" then he would had completed his mission while not accomplishing his objective, forcing him to either change and force himself to think about what he has done or break and lash out.

Not much chances of that, the Giant explained that the Rift-sealing ritual has to be voluntary (last paragraph).

[KorvinStarmast]

and in fact it would be far more likely that some of the evil gods would start spamming big flashy portals to the Dark One's domain until the Snarl took the bait and went through.

That's sort of funny, unless you are Redcloak. If TDO gets consumed by the Snarl, RC gets no spells, and he reverts to simply being a nerd who nobody likes. Which, if the world survives, might result in him returning to his brother's village and trying to undertake a journey of redemption as a regular goblin doing regular stuff in the community and

Spoiler: SoD Spoiler?

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doing his best to help and support h is nieces/nephews, whose father he betrayed.

It's contributing a 9th-level spell slot willingly to a specific ritual that Thor will explain to Durkon later, not just casting any 9th-level spell at any target.

Handy to have this Word of Giant available to preclude a few pages of guesswork.

[SlashDash]

TDO does not talk to Redcloak because Redcloak does not call. On the first opportunity he had TDO did send Redcloak a message. It is not TDO's refusal to talk to Redcloak that is the issue; it is Redcloak's unwillingness to cast a Commune spell.

Not sure what you are basing this on. #1206 says the opposite.

Wait, he told you this? In person? You actually met Thor?

Aye! E' Gave me this mission 'imself

... I've never spoken to my god. Not directly.

Oh! Well, I'm sure e's just, busy. Wit' work n' stuff

I know. I try to give him space.

'E prob'bly just wants ta take things slow. See how they go.

I've been his high priest for 35 years.

…Mebbe 'e dinnae want to ruin tha friendship?

It seems clear that The Dark One isn't the one initiating contact and Redcloak is ready to take their communication to the next level.

[brian 333]

Not sure what you are basing this on. #1206 says the opposite.

Wait, he told you this? In person? You actually met Thor?

Aye! E' Gave me this mission 'imself

... I've never spoken to my god. Not directly.

Oh! Well, I'm sure e's just, busy. Wit' work n' stuff

I know. I try to give him space.

'E prob'bly just wants ta take things slow. See how they go.

I've been his high priest for 35 years.

…Mebbe 'e dinnae want to ruin tha friendship?

It seems clear that The Dark One isn't the one initiating contact and Redcloak is ready to take their communication to the next level.

You have that backwards.

Thor did not initiate communication with Durkon until he died. There was ample time to have done so before. The gods seem to be the ones waiting for the call.

They even offer commune spells for that specific purpose. They answer prayers for spells, give signs and portents, and in one specific case, sent a courier to repeat his specific message.

Redcloak could ask via Commune if he is doing the right thing.

Redcloak could pray for a sign that he is doing the right thing.

Redcloak could instruct a powerful hobgoblin in what he wishes to say to TDO, kill it, then raise the dead hobgoblin to get the reply.

Redcloak could have used Plane Shift on the day he made Level 9 to go to TDO's plane and ask for a heart-to-heart.

If RC really wanted to talk to his god, he has the means. It is not TDO shutting out RC, it is RC avoiding The Dark One.

[Ionathus]

You have that backwards.

Thor did not initiate communication with Durkon until he died. There was ample time to have done so before. The gods seem to be the ones waiting for the call.

First off, we've seen Durkon call for Thor's help multiple times. It's always a cutaway joke panel where Thor is preoccupied and not paying attention. The impression I've always had is that direct deific revelation is extremely rare, and vague or unanswered messages are the norm.

Also, we've seen how tedious Commune is to use when Durkon used it recently. It crapped out on him after like two minutes. If Thor wanted to have a single uninterrupted conversation with Durkon, waiting for him to die was the best way to do it.

[brian 333]

All of that does not diminish the fact that Redcloak can attempt to initiate a conversation with The Dark One whenever he chooses, but has not tried.

Praying for spells is not the same as speaking to a deity. But a deity can choose to not grant them if it wishes to send a message. So far, The Dark One continues to grant spells to RC, so we know RC is not out-of-door with TDO.

[MoiMagnus]

If RC never tried to commune with TDO (despite complaining about lack of communication), then he is significantly further in the "know that he is wrong but doesn't want to hear it" than I understood, in the sense that not only he is stuck in the sunk cost fallacy but he also fear that his own god might disagree with him on some points.

If RC cannot commune with TDO, then that means there are additional details about TDO's personality and/or his power that we don't know yet.

My personal feeling is that the comics are more going for the latter than the former (almost everything about TDO is kept as a mystery, including if he is fully completed as a deity), but IMO both are compatible with what we know and the former would naturally lead to a finale relying on "TDO is not that bas of a god".