Baldur's Gate 3 III: No Plans for DLC Or A Fourth Thread

[Errorname]

I mean, definitely have some sort of spaceship command, but I really do think spaceship systems should take a backseat to strange new worlds and races to interact with. The draw to a Star Trek RPG should be being thrust into situations and having a 4 o'clock meeting about them.

My thinking is that from a nuts and bolts combat system perspective, what you need to nail is the bridge command stuff and not the away mission bits. Away missions would be good to have, but if you can only have one you take the bridge command.

Eh, if the game is good enough people will show up. The D&D movie didn't pull in huge crowds, yet Baldur's Gate was a titanic blockbuster that very same year and pulled in scores of new players who barely knew anything about the underlying IP.

I'd agree with that. I'd also say that when I've been thinking about Larian picking up a license, I'd imagine they'd want something they're passionate about more than anything else.

Rather than an RPG, I think a strategy game in the vein of FTL where you have to manage a ship's various systems (engines, weapons, shields, transporter, life support etc) and personnel through various deep space challenges like pirates, asteroids, rival factions and the like would be the way to go.

I guess we're getting into a discussion of genre boundaries, because I absolutely think you could do a game where combat is FTL style ship and crew management that is still very much an RPG. Combat systems aren't diagnostic for RPGness to me, Fallout 1 uses turn based tactics and New Vegas uses first person shooting but both games are clearly RPGs. I don't see any reason why you couldn't make an RPG that borrows strategy game mechanics for it's combat encounters.

Here again though, I'd say a AA or indie would suffice.

Okay, but you could have made a perfectly adequate AA or Indie Baldur's Gate 3 as well.

[Zevox]

So speaking of which, other than Undermountain or digital boardgames, Waterdeep seems to lack videogame adaptation.
Like Neverwinter, Icewind Dale, and especially Baldur’s Gate got one.

If we're talking about locations for other FR games, I'd rather they leave the Sword Coast altogether. Nothing against it, but they've used it for everything, and there's plenty more to the setting, even without leaving the continent of Faerun. Set something in Cormyr, or Thay, or Turmish for once, rather than the same few major cities of the west coast.

[Psyren]

I'd agree with that. I'd also say that when I've been thinking about Larian picking up a license, I'd imagine they'd want something they're passionate about more than anything else.
...
I guess we're getting into a discussion of genre boundaries, because I absolutely think you could do a game where combat is FTL style ship and crew management that is still very much an RPG. Combat systems aren't diagnostic for RPGness to me, Fallout 1 uses turn based tactics and New Vegas uses first person shooting but both games are clearly RPGs. I don't see any reason why you couldn't make an RPG that borrows strategy game mechanics for it's combat encounters.

You could; I was being more narrow and sticking with the kind of party-based CRPG that is more Larian's wheelhouse since we were talking about enlisting them specifically. Not saying they couldn't make such combat work, but I don't know of them having any track record in that space.

Okay, but you could have made a perfectly adequate AA or Indie Baldur's Gate 3 as well.

We did, it's called Solasta

(I doubt Larian would have gotten the license for that, but sure.)

[Anonymouswizard]

My thinking is that from a nuts and bolts combat system perspective, what you need to nail is the bridge command stuff and not the away mission bits. Away missions would be good to have, but if you can only have one you take the bridge command.

Youn see, my thought was 'the away mission is actually more central to the show than space combat is'.

If we're talking about locations for other FR games, I'd rather they leave the Sword Coast altogether. Nothing against it, but they've used it for everything, and there's plenty more to the setting, even without leaving the continent of Faerun. Set something in Cormyr, or Thay, or Turmish for once, rather than the same few major cities of the west coast.

Random idea: they should do a D&D game in a setting that isn't rubbish. I'd love to see a Sharn: City of Towers game, just to pick an example.

[Zevox]

Random idea: they should do a D&D game in a setting that isn't rubbish. I'd love to see a Sharn: City of Towers game, just to pick an example.

You undercut yourself there, suggesting Eberron after asking for a setting that isn't rubbish.

[t209]

If we're talking about locations for other FR games, I'd rather they leave the Sword Coast altogether. Nothing against it, but they've used it for everything, and there's plenty more to the setting, even without leaving the continent of Faerun. Set something in Cormyr, or Thay, or Turmish for once, rather than the same few major cities of the west coast.

Cormyr…it could work but there is issue with Shou Town in Marsember (or Westgate) if they wanted to include them.
Even if they’re written in 2000’s.
Though Cormyr might work as Forgotten Realms’ Daggerfall and Game of Thrones style story.

[Spore]

Honestly these aren't exactly golden years for any big genre IP with the odd exception of Dune. A lot of franchises hit massive peaks in the '10s but we're in the period where the momentum is dwindling.

They have run dry of ideas for big IPs short of the odd umpteenth world reset (Mystra dies again somehow) or remake (which I wouldnt be against with many FR games). And Dune is in the lucky spot to be a semi big IP that is still somewhat fresh in modern eyes. It is an obvious religious simile, it is scifi with a bit of mysticism. It is not Scifi with englightenment (Star Trek) nor Science Fantasy, classic fantasy or Modern Fantasy.

again Larien is too inventive and in the astonishingly lucky position to not be beholden to outside interests and with a lot of playets willing to play whatever they make to squander that on franchise service* - but a Trek kinda sci-fi would play really well to their strengths.

Larian is not lucky in the slightest. Whoever attributes their success to mere luck has not seen their track record. Divinity as a series might have started as luck, but it is just a calculated risk (a bit sprawling RPG that truly reacts to player choices rarely feels as such, just see Fable or dozen other tries to be "reactive"). But the only other game I know that is similarly immersive - Fallout New Vegas; which was built upon the advertisement of Fallout 3 and the series as a whole - Larian both used the name BG 3 AND their genius marketing.

Baldur's Gate 3 is not known as "the sequel to the Bhaalsparn Trilogy", it is known as "the game where you can **** a bear", the "game with the sassy vampire" or even just "pick your waifu between stoic softie, big cuddly mommy, actual softie and the bonus option of unrepentant ******* dommy mommy". And their advertisers should be lauded for releasing a cutscene with the Halsin romance like 2 weeks before the game launch. Like many RPGs since the 2010s it is a dating simulation on the side of being an actual RPG. Which is important to simulate the parasocial relationships between player characters on an actual D&D table, because honestly like many modern players we really miss other players in our single player games.

In my case it goes as far as I prefer MMOs to be played alone to actual single player games because I know there are people around that I can include.

[Psyren]

They have run dry of ideas for big IPs short of the odd umpteenth world reset (Mystra dies again somehow) or remake (which I wouldnt be against with many FR games).

Somehow Mystra returned

I would absolutely adore 5e remakes of classic D&D CRPGs like Pool of Radiance, Stone Prophet or Wake of the Ravager. If Larian's Divinity Engine is off the table, Solasta's translation of the 5e rules to Unity would do the trick imo.

Larian is not lucky in the slightest. Whoever attributes their success to mere luck has not seen their track record. Divinity as a series might have started as luck, but it is just a calculated risk (a bit sprawling RPG that truly reacts to player choices rarely feels as such, just see Fable or dozen other tries to be "reactive"). But the only other game I know that is similarly immersive - Fallout New Vegas; which was built upon the advertisement of Fallout 3 and the series as a whole - Larian both used the name BG 3 AND their genius marketing.

I mean there was some luck involved with their history, like how Steam rolled out its Early Access functionality right as their crowdfunding campaign for DOS1 was kicking off, after they had sworn off publisher money due to the many, many instances of being burned by publishers in the past. Admitting that isn't a slight against Larian; as any D&D player can attest, the biggest success stories usually involve at least a small bit of luck.

[warty goblin]

I meant lucky as in fortunate, enviable or rare, not getting where they are due to random chance. Could have picked a better word.

[Errorname]

(I doubt Larian would have gotten the license for that, but sure.)

My point is more that for games like this generally the thing that you're getting with AAA budgets is presentation. You don't need an AAA budget for the core game, you need the budget to be able to afford making every dialogue a fully voiced and animated cutscene and to have top-of-the-line graphics for all of it.

Youn see, my thought was 'the away mission is actually more central to the show than space combat is'.

Star Trek has certainly tried to be a series about boots on the ground gunfights, but that's not what's unique about the setting and not what it's good at. The compelling stuff when they beam down is the talky bits more than the fighty bits, and you don't need a dedicated combat system for those.

Ship combat and infantry combat require two systems with minimal overlap, it would be expensive to implement both even if you weren't trying to also do a robust RPG narrative at the same time. Ship combat is more unique to the franchise and frankly something that it's better at. I have a hard time imagining enough diversity in weapons and abilities to make satisfying infantry tactics combat without just making a bunch of stuff up, but it's very easy for me to imagine that diversity for ship combat and crew management

Larian is not lucky in the slightest. Whoever attributes their success to mere luck has not seen their track record.

It is not mere luck that Larian is successful, there is obviously a massive amount of talent there, but there is also a lot of luck to it.

[warty goblin]

Ship combat is tricky in an RPG context, particularly following the ST formula of a single capital ship, because then the player only has a single unit, and that makes tactics of maneuver much harder to put in the game. Particularly in a turn based title. You can do it in a dedicated strategy title because most of the time the player will have multiple units and although losses should be minimized in a strategy game they aren't more or less unacceptable the way they are in an RPG.

Also, making ship combat feel like, well, ship combat and not bog standard tactics combat with dudes wearing ship hats requires lots of detailed fiddly things like subsystem damage and turning radii and fire arcs. These are all doable things, but they're very far from what Larien's done well in the past. And they aren't exactly titchy little things either, you can make a fairly substantial game with just those, no story or anything else needed.

[Anonymouswizard]

Star Trek has certainly tried to be a series about boots on the ground gunfights, but that's not what's unique about the setting and not what it's good at. The compelling stuff when they beam down is the talky bits more than the fighty bits, and you don't need a dedicated combat system for those.

Remember that my initial pitch actually suggested de-emphasised combat, and rather exploiting Larian's tendency to let you poke everything. No gunfights, phasers are more of a tool used for intimidation or stealth if they appear at all.

You're the one who insisted combat was necessary in a theoretical game based on a franchise that (mostly) de-emphasises armed conflict. Hell that iconic climatic space battle in The Wrath of Khan? It would be utterly terrible to play in almost any space combat system I've seen.

Focus on the away missions, because they're the core of the franchise.


P.S.:Forgotten Realms sucks, Eberron has interesting stuff like magic trains.

[t209]

Remember that my initial pitch actually suggested de-emphasised combat, and rather exploiting Larian's tendency to let you poke everything. No gunfights, phasers are more of a tool used for intimidation or stealth if they appear at all.

You're the one who insisted combat was necessary in a theoretical game based on a franchise that (mostly) de-emphasises armed conflict. Hell that iconic climatic space battle in The Wrath of Khan? It would be utterly terrible to play in almost any space combat system I've seen.

Focus on the away missions, because they're the core of the franchise.


P.S.:Forgotten Realms sucks, Eberron has interesting stuff like magic trains.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=84-wQlXiG5U&t=1038s
There was one Eberron adaptation.
Maybe AoE 3 and 4 style trade route but with magic trains would work.

[InvisibleBison]

P.S.:Forgotten Realms sucks, Eberron has interesting stuff like magic trains.

Magic trains aren't particularly interesting.

[Anonymouswizard]

Magic trains aren't particularly interesting.

In what kind of fantasy world is a train boring?

[InvisibleBison]

In what kind of fantasy world is a train boring?

As a narrative/worldbuilding feature, trains are not interesting in and of themselves, they're only interesting if they are used to tell an interesting story. Whether they're in a fantasy setting, a real-world setting, a sci-fi setting or any other kind of setting has no bearing on that.

[Errorname]

Ship combat is tricky in an RPG context, particularly following the ST formula of a single capital ship, because then the player only has a single unit, and that makes tactics of maneuver much harder to put in the game. Particularly in a turn based title. You can do it in a dedicated strategy title because most of the time the player will have multiple units and although losses should be minimized in a strategy game they aren't more or less unacceptable the way they are in an RPG.

In the sort of system I'm thinking of your units aren't 'your ship', but 'your crew'. FTL would be the model for this sort of gameplay. The tactics aren't "should I move my destroyer into cover or try to take out their frigate", it's "should I send my weapons officer to help put out a fire in the engine room".

Remember that my initial pitch actually suggested de-emphasised combat, and rather exploiting Larian's tendency to let you poke everything. No gunfights, phasers are more of a tool used for intimidation or stealth if they appear at all.

You're the one who insisted combat was necessary in a theoretical game based on a franchise that (mostly) de-emphasises armed conflict. Hell that iconic climatic space battle in The Wrath of Khan? It would be utterly terrible to play in almost any space combat system I've seen.

Part of this is just me talking about how I would want to adapt this setting to an RPG and latching onto the elements that I find compelling about the setting. I do think I got a little confused by your mention of origin characters and figured you'd want your squad members to have mechanical things to contribute, which in most RPGs ends up being combat. Thinking about it a little more, I could see ways to have a party with clear distinct roles who have things to mechanically contribute in a game where the non-talky bits are more exploring and puzzle solving than combat.

I still prefer the ship management focus both because it's an idea I find cool independently of Star Trek, but also because it fits well with the sort of thing I associate with the series. Stuff like Balance of Terror and Wrath of Khan, obviously, but also episodes about weird space anomalies and solving problems by doing unorthodox retrofits to the ship's technobabble engine. It feels very Star Trek while also being something that I think naturally lends itself to engaging gameplay.

As a narrative/worldbuilding feature, trains are not interesting in and of themselves, they're only interesting if they are used to tell an interesting story. Whether they're in a fantasy setting, a real-world setting, a sci-fi setting or any other kind of setting has no bearing on that.

For what it's worth, the early days of railroading were a dramatic and historically important period of time, so they do lend themselves to interesting stories if one was interested in telling them.

[Cikomyr2]

Ship combat is tricky in an RPG context, particularly following the ST formula of a single capital ship, because then the player only has a single unit, and that makes tactics of maneuver much harder to put in the game. Particularly in a turn based title. You can do it in a dedicated strategy title because most of the time the player will have multiple units and although losses should be minimized in a strategy game they aren't more or less unacceptable the way they are in an RPG.

Also, making ship combat feel like, well, ship combat and not bog standard tactics combat with dudes wearing ship hats requires lots of detailed fiddly things like subsystem damage and turning radii and fire arcs. These are all doable things, but they're very far from what Larien's done well in the past. And they aren't exactly titchy little things either, you can make a fairly substantial game with just those, no story or anything else needed.

This is why i think an RPG more in the line of DS9 or Babylon 5 would be better suited. Its easier to be in command of a space station that gets reinforced and upgraded with whatever ally you manage to scrounge in your story.

Otherwise, the station is a Place, like any other. Ships come to you.

[Rodin]

Personally, I would kill for an Away-Team based Star Trek game, on a ship other than the Enterprise. Rather than send down the Captain, the First Officer, the Chief Science Officer, and the head Doctor, you're an actual team of lower ranked officers whose job it is to go on these missions - kind of like how Voyager: Elite Force did it. But instead of an FPS, it's a party-based RPG which deemphasizes combat. Each party member has their own set of skills and can learn more as they get more experienced, and these skills allow them to find ways to resolve the mission. Your team and your ship get more renown as the missions are completed, which leads to more dangerous away missions. The bridge crew act as mission control and infodump for you as well as acting as "camp companions" to talk to in Ten-Forward.

I dunno whether Larian would be the best to work on that sort of game (they seem to really love working on combat systems) but I'd love to see someone take a crack at it. The space battle Star Trek games have never interested me because they miss the point of what Star Trek is all about.

[LibraryOgre]

If we're talking about locations for other FR games, I'd rather they leave the Sword Coast altogether. Nothing against it, but they've used it for everything, and there's plenty more to the setting, even without leaving the continent of Faerun. Set something in Cormyr, or Thay, or Turmish for once, rather than the same few major cities of the west coast.

Pool of Radiance was north shore of the Moonsea (mostly Phlan). Curse of the Azure Bonds and Pools of Darkness were the Dalelands, and, of course, Eye of the Beholder started in Waterdeep, and went to Myth Drannor (as did the 3e-ish Pool of Radiance). Menzoberranzan... you'll never guess where that one happened!

Ironically, though, Baldur's Gate 2 had nothing to do with the city of Baldur's Gate.

Random idea: they should do a D&D game in a setting that isn't rubbish. I'd love to see a Sharn: City of Towers game, just to pick an example.

Boy, do I have news for you.

[Psyren]

As a narrative/worldbuilding feature, trains are not interesting in and of themselves, they're only interesting if they are used to tell an interesting story. Whether they're in a fantasy setting, a real-world setting, a sci-fi setting or any other kind of setting has no bearing on that.

While you can tell a good story anywhere, there are certain kinds of stories that trains are particularly well-suited to; see Cyre 1313 in Ravenloft for example, which is actually a train from Eberron. Or if you want to go outside D&D, Mummy on the Orient Express or Snowpiercer.

But more to the point - I think we're overdue for some urban/magepunk fantasy in the next big CRPG.

[Eldonauran]

But more to the point - I think we're overdue for some urban/magepunk fantasy in the next big CRPG.

Is 2017 recent enough for that? Though, it might be more science fantasy ... I definitely got the urban/magepunk feel to it when I played. Almost hurt myself laughing when I found out you can die in the first few choices in the game. Ker-splat.

[Errorname]

But more to the point - I think we're overdue for some urban/magepunk fantasy in the next big CRPG.

Who has the rights to Arcanum nowadays?

[Cikomyr2]

Who has the rights to Arcanum nowadays?

I would squeeeee if Laurian did a Arcanum sequel.

Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura 2 Electric Aetheroo

[diplomancer]

The cost of starting as a different class is literally 100 gold. Compare that to the time cost of going through the entire tutorial multiple times until you don't get unlucky and...yeah, I can see why you would want to do that. My Honor mode run was with Karlach as PC and I still jumped up the side of the cliff so I could grab Gale and Lae'zel before fighting the Intellect Devourers.

The other hardest fight for me was the Githyanki scout party near the mountain pass. Closest I came to dying until I stupidly yelled insults at Gortash during the coronation because, well, Karlach.

The cost of changing your class is 0. You can pickpocket your money back, and Bone Man doesn't get upset with you if you fail, so you can try as many times as needed.

I agree that the Githyanki patrol fight is another tough and dangerous fight, though you can avoid it with the right rolls.

[Draconi Redfir]

Baldurs gate 3 shares the same problem i had with Pathfinder:Wrath of the Righteous when it comes to Respeccing.

It doesn't let you just change ONE thing. It's all or nothing.

If you level up and decide to take lets say "Alert" as a feat, and then play around with it a bit and decide "nah, it's not for me", then you can't go back and just swap out that one feat and nothing else.

Nah, instead you need to go aaaallllll the way back to level one and completely re-build your entire character from scratch through every. single. level. Mess something up? gotta do it all over again! Gods (in the context of D&D) forbid you didn't memorize your entire build.

[Psyren]

Who has the rights to Arcanum nowadays?

A quick Google says Microsoft technically owns it now.

Baldurs gate 3 shares the same problem i had with Pathfinder:Wrath of the Righteous when it comes to Respeccing.

It doesn't let you just change ONE thing. It's all or nothing.

If you level up and decide to take lets say "Alert" as a feat, and then play around with it a bit and decide "nah, it's not for me", then you can't go back and just swap out that one feat and nothing else.

Nah, instead you need to go aaaallllll the way back to level one and completely re-build your entire character from scratch through every. single. level. Mess something up? gotta do it all over again! Gods (in the context of D&D) forbid you didn't memorize your entire build.

While this is true, 5e has a LOT fewer choices to make at each level than PF, especially for noncasters, so it's honestly not that bad.

[Draconi Redfir]

While this is true, 5e has a LOT fewer choices to make at each level than PF, especially for noncasters, so it's honestly not that bad.

true, still a qol feature that i feel was missed.

[LibraryOgre]

Which is why you save before you respec.... I agree it is annoying, and with WotR, it can be even worse.

[Anonymouswizard]

BG3 just kind of drops the ball on character progression, in addition to the respec annoyance there's the fact that you need to look at at external website to see upcoming features. At least WotR allows you to see everything coming up in your current class on the level up screen so you can start planning your full build from level one (it's issue is that, unlike BG3, you need to plan your build from level one).

At least it doesn't demand as much system mastery as the Divinity: Original Sin duology does.