How much would cost to pay a team to capture a red dragon wyrmling?

[Samael Morgenst]

It's not very powerful (CR 4, or 5 for a very young specimen) but it's intelligent and elusive.

An owlbear youth or egg fetches 3000 gp.
A griffon, same CR but more intelligent and able to fly, up to 7000 gp for a youth.

So, how much should a patron pay for a red dragon egg, or for a red wyrmiling?

[Inevitability]

Arms and Equipment Guide has rules for dragon eggs, which seem like an alright starting point.

The price for an egg begins at 10,000 gp and goes up depending on the buyer. There is no “open market” for dragon eggs. The training cost is widely variable, but never less than 5,000 gp. Dragons can never be domesticated.

According to the Draconomicon, red dragon eggs have an incubation time of nearly two years and must be kept in swelteringly hot conditions, so I would assume the cost of a wyrmling to be significantly higher than this still, just so you don't have to go through the hassle of hatching.

I think upwards of 20000 GP for a wyrmling makes sense, given all this. Spellcasting services to get Darsson's Firey Furnace + 10th-level Permanency comes out to 5560 GP already, and seems like a good sort of benchmark for the cost to magically sustain the sort of environment for multiple years. Add some markup, the cost of shelter, the cost of guarding your egg throughout all that time, and I think that doubling the price just so you don't have to hatch the egg yourself is more than reasonable.

[pabelfly]

Dragonlance Campaign Setting has the Dragon Rider PrC. You can pay a dragon to join you for the cost of 1,000 gold per HD.

Draconomicon also has recruitment rules for dragons p138. 500 gold per HD per year.

These are not dragon eggs, or tame dragons, but these might suit your purposes if you want to be using a Dragon as a character, or just want a rough guide as to what a dragon might be costed at when adding them to the party.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Arms and Equipment Guide has rules for dragon eggs, which seem like an alright starting point.



According to the Draconomicon, red dragon eggs have an incubation time of nearly two years and must be kept in swelteringly hot conditions, so I would assume the cost of a wyrmling to be significantly higher than this still, just so you don't have to go through the hassle of hatching.

I think 15000-20000 GP for a wyrmling wouldn't be unreasonable, given all this.

The point of buying an egg is to have the Wyrmling imprint on you from birth‚ making befriending it and raising it easier. There would be less.demand for an already born wyrmling. It also requires stealing it from an adult dragon's lair‚ upping the difficulty several times compared to capturing a wyrmling in its first years‚ especially a chromatic one‚ since chromatic parents care less about their young compared to metallic. I'd say 15k would be reasonable for a metallic wyrmling (up to 20k for a gold wyrmling)‚ but that a chromatic one would be more in the 7-12k range.

[hamishspence]

Some chromatic dragons, usually younger ones, when they start laying, don't look after the egg in their lair but just leave it to hatch by itself and take care of itself when it hatches.


Finding such an egg before it hatches would provide whatever advantages can be gained from having the wyrmling from the moment of the hatching point, as well as the advantage of not having to venture into the lair of an adult dragon.

[Samael Morgenst]

There are many profitable uses for dragon breeding, although they're quite moral bankrup.
With the one-time investment for a Ring of Regeneration, a single dragon can slowly provide the raw materials to equip a whole army with dragoncraft weapons and armors. Not to mention industrial-scale dragonegg hatching.

---

By the way, from the Draconomicon:

A single hide can yield more than one set of armor if the armor is sized for creatures smaller than the size given on the table. For each size category of the finished armor smaller than the size given on the table, double the number of sets of armor can be made. For instance, when making banded mail from the hide of a Colossal dragon, an armorsmith can make one suit of Huge armor (as the table indicates), two suits of Large armor, four suits of Medium armor, eight suits of Small armor, sixteen suits of Tiny armor, thirty-two suits of Diminutive armor, or sixty-four suits of Fine armor

Could it work backwards too?

Could a human-sized (medium) full-plate be crafted from 2 gargantuan / 4 huge / 8 large / 16 medium / 32 small / 64 tiny dragons? (for example, 64 white dragon wyrmlings)

[atemu1234]

Arms and Equipment Guide has rules for dragon eggs, which seem like an alright starting point.



According to the Draconomicon, red dragon eggs have an incubation time of nearly two years and must be kept in swelteringly hot conditions, so I would assume the cost of a wyrmling to be significantly higher than this still, just so you don't have to go through the hassle of hatching.

I think upwards of 20000 GP for a wyrmling makes sense, given all this. Spellcasting services to get Darsson's Firey Furnace + 10th-level Permanency comes out to 5560 GP already, and seems like a good sort of benchmark for the cost to magically sustain the sort of environment for multiple years. Add some markup, the cost of shelter, the cost of guarding your egg throughout all that time, and I think that doubling the price just so you don't have to hatch the egg yourself is more than reasonable.

This is the most sensible option; though really, if the patrons are players, they should be the ones hunting down the dragon egg themselves. Hiring a team is just a recipe for A) huge life insurance costs and B) a pissed-off mama dragon, and see A).

[AMFV]

It's not very powerful (CR 4, or 5 for a very young specimen) but it's intelligent and elusive.

An owlbear youth or egg fetches 3000 gp.
A griffon, same CR but more intelligent and able to fly, up to 7000 gp for a youth.

So, how much should a patron pay for a red dragon egg, or for a red wyrmiling?

I suspect the cost issue is not for dealing with the Wyrmling itself but rather it's parent if they happen to be around. While Red Dragons often are not attentive parents they still would probably not approve of their offspring being held in captivity. So that's likely to significantly increase the cost.


Edit:

Some chromatic dragons, usually younger ones, when they start laying, don't look after the egg in their lair but just leave it to hatch by itself and take care of itself when it hatches.


Finding such an egg before it hatches would provide whatever advantages can be gained from having the wyrmling from the moment of the hatching point, as well as the advantage of not having to venture into the lair of an adult dragon.

The thing is that even assuming that's true, you still have to deal with the fact that greater draconic community is definitely going to become aware of the fact that you are dealing in dragons.

[Crake]

The point of buying an egg is to have the Wyrmling imprint on you from birth‚ making befriending it and raising it easier.

Dragons don't imprint, they're fully intelligent and sentient before even hatching, and by default view any non dragons as lesser beings by default. At best you could convince a red dragon that you're a valuable minion worth keeping around, at worst, you'd have to fight tooth and nail just to keep it from burning your home down.

As per the draconomicon, page 13:

RULES: REARING A DRAGON
Being an adoptive parent to a dragon is no easy task. Even good-aligned dragons have a sense of superiority and an innate yearning for freedom. Most dragons instinctively defer to older dragons of the same kind, but they tend to regard other creatures with some disdain.

Older and wiser dragons eventually learn to respect non-dragons for their abilities and accomplishments, but a newly hatched wyrmling tends to regard a nondragon foster parent as a captor—or at best as a well-meaning fool. Still, it is possible for a nondragon character to forge a bond with a newly hatched wyrmling. Accomplishing this requires the use of Diplomacy or Intimidate as well as (eventually) the Handle Animal skill. A character seeking to rear a newly hatched wyrmling must begin with a Diplomacy or Intimidate check to persuade the dragon to accept the character’s guidance; 5 or more ranks of Knowledge (arcana) gives the character a +2 bonus on the check. The character’s Diplomacy or Intimidate check is opposed by a Sense Motive check by the dragon. The dragon has a +15 racial bonus on its check. Certain other conditions, such as those mentioned on the table below, can further modify the wyrmling’s Sense Motive check.

Condition Modifier
Character tended the dragon’s egg while it was incubating: –2
Character was present at the dragon’s hatching: –5
Each component of dragon’s alignment in common with the character’s¹: –5

¹Alignment components are chaos, evil, good, law, and neutral.

This opposed check is rolled secretly by the DM, so that the player of the character does not immediately know the result of the check. If the wyrmling wins the opposed check, it regards the character as a captor and attempts to gain its freedom any way it can. (Most dragons, even newly hatched wyrmlings, are smart enough to forego an immediate attack on a more powerful being, and will wait for the right opportunity to escape.) No attempt by this character to rear this dragon can succeed. This opposed check cannot be retried.

If the character wins this opposed check, he or she can attempt to rear the dragon. The process takes 5 years, but once the rearing period begins, the character need only devote one day a week to the dragon’s training. Throughout the rearing period, however, the dragon must be fed and housed at a cost of 10 gp per day.

When the rearing period has run its course, the character attempts a Handle Animal check (DC 20 + the dragon’s Hit Dice at the very young stage). Only one check is made, rolled secretly by the DM. A failed check cannot be retried. If the character’s Handle Animal check fails, the dragon is not successfully reared and seeks to leave, as noted above. If the check succeeds, the character can begin to train the dragon to perform tasks (the most common of which is serving as a mount; see Dragons as Mounts, page 136, and the Handle Animal skill, page 74 of the Player’s Handbook).

For many characters, the ultimate purpose of rearing a dragon is to make it available to the character as a cohort. To rear a dragon for this reason, the character must have taken the Leadership feat (see page 106 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide) by the time the rearing period expires, and must have a sufficiently high Leadership score to attract the dragon as a cohort at that time (using the dragon’s Hit Dice at the very young stage as its cohort level). Also, the dragon’s alignment must not be opposed to the character’s alignment on either the law-vs.-chaos or good-vs.-evil axis (for example, a lawful good character cannot attempt to rear a chaotic evil wyrmling). For more information, see Dragons as Cohorts, page 138.

[AMFV]

Dragons don't imprint, they're fully intelligent and sentient before even hatching, and by default view any non dragons as lesser beings by default. At best you could convince a red dragon that you're a valuable minion worth keeping around, at worst, you'd have to fight tooth and nail just to keep it from burning your home down.

As per the draconomicon, page 13:

It's important to note that the people paying you to capture the Wyrmling may themselves be incorrect about that.

[rel]

A quest giver offers 1k to 2k GP per PC.

And the PC's can likely make a little more looting the dragons hoard, and get a higher payout by accepting payment in something less liquid than diamond dust and platinum coins.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Dragons don't imprint, they're fully intelligent and sentient before even hatching, and by default view any non dragons as lesser beings by default. At best you could convince a red dragon that you're a valuable minion worth keeping around, at worst, you'd have to fight tooth and nail just to keep it from burning your home down.

As per the draconomicon, page 13:

Character tended the dragon’s egg while it was incubating: –2
Character was present at the dragon’s hatching: –5

I mean‚ you gave the answer yourself. Maybe imprinting wasn't the right word‚ but being the first person a wyrmling sees definitely helps befriending it later.

[Unoriginal]

It's not very powerful (CR 4, or 5 for a very young specimen) but it's intelligent and elusive.

An owlbear youth or egg fetches 3000 gp.
A griffon, same CR but more intelligent and able to fly, up to 7000 gp for a youth.

So, how much should a patron pay for a red dragon egg, or for a red wyrmiling?

The book Lords of Madness gives this guideline for the price of a slave (with a CR of 1 minimum):

CR²x100 gp

So assuming the typical slavers' price estimations are being used, CR 4 Wyrmling would be 1600 and a CR 5 would be 2500.

[Crake]

Character tended the dragon’s egg while it was incubating: –2
Character was present at the dragon’s hatching: –5

I mean‚ you gave the answer yourself. Maybe imprinting wasn't the right word‚ but being the first person a wyrmling sees definitely helps befriending it later.

It does help, yeah; imprinting implies an almost instant, familial trust and bond, which is definitely not descriptive of the relationship they have with any non-dragon rearers.

[AMFV]

It does help, yeah; imprinting implies an almost instant, familial trust and bond, which is definitely not descriptive of the relationship they have with any non-dragon rearers.

It's also important to note that they're paying you to retrieve the dragon because they believe it will work. You don't like lose the money if they get eaten later.

[Samael Morgenst]

The idea was to bred and butcher dragons rather than tame them.

[Bohandas]

The point of buying an egg is to have the Wyrmling imprint on you from birth‚ making befriending it and raising it easier.

I don't think chaotic evil dragons have the right kind of lifecycle for that to be a thing

[AMFV]

The idea was to bred and butcher dragons rather than tame them.

That's likely to attract negative attention from the entire Draconic community. So probably the cost would bump significantly.

[Samael Morgenst]

Nah, Frost Giants does no routinely with white dragons.

[Inevitability]

Nah, Frost Giants does no routinely with white dragons.

White dragons specifically are the weird cousin of dragonkind, though. Weaker than any other, among the most antisocial, textually mostly interested in being big and scary and eating a whale every other week. Not enough power to command respect from other dragons, not enough cohesion to command it from each other. So what if those overgrown wyverns get themselves captured by giants? They're already at odds with the giants, but there's no reason to prioritize freeing their dragon pets.

On the other hand... if someone starts abducting and breeding red dragons, other dragons are sure to take notice. Whatever you want red dragons for is presumably something you can use other kinds for, and given their power, "If they can do it to the reds they can do it to us" is going to be the first thing that comes to mind for many. Even a silver or gold dragon would feel a pang of self-interested worry (not to mention moral disapproval, depending on what you're using that dragon for), and have reasons to stop you. Especially if you're not a giant, just a mortal wizard, and thus decidedly more bite-sized.

...so I guess my question is - would it hamper you to switch to breeding white dragons instead?

[AMFV]

Nah, Frost Giants does no routinely with white dragons.

Frost Giants are also (in lore at least) extremely powerful on their own account. If you're the kind of person that needs to hire somebody to do this you're probably not that powerful. Also White Dragons are as pointed out, kind of not the same as others. Also, I'm pretty sure that they're breeding them, not butchering them. Once you start wantonly murdering dragonkind, especially baby dragonkind that's very likely to get you some pretty negative attention.

White dragons specifically are the weird cousin of dragonkind, though. Weaker than any other, among the most antisocial, textually mostly interested in being big and scary and eating a whale every other week. Not enough power to command respect from other dragons, not enough cohesion to command it from each other. So what if those overgrown wyverns get themselves captured by giants? They're already at odds with the giants, but there's no reason to prioritize freeing their dragon pets.

Also White Dragons are really isolated. And therefore this practice may not be widely known. It's not like the Frost Giants are posting an advert in Adventurer's Monthly, which is likely to get a lot of attention. This however is asking around to hire somebody, that is much more likely to attract attention.

On the other hand... if someone starts abducting and breeding red dragons, other dragons are sure to take notice. Whatever you want red dragons for is presumably something you can use other kinds for, and given their power, "If they can do it to the reds they can do it to us" is going to be the first thing that comes to mind for many. Even a silver or gold dragon would feel a pang of self-interested worry (not to mention moral disapproval, depending on what you're using that dragon for), and have reasons to stop you. Especially if you're not a giant, just a mortal wizard, and thus decidedly more bite-sized.

...so I guess my question is - would it hamper you to switch to breeding white dragons instead?

Or even just have the realistic consequences in play! Have the NPCs hiring the PCs and the PCs get hunted by dragons, have to explain themselves! That to me is a great option. Have the PCs buying dragons and trying to rear them suffer consequences from Dragonkind. That's reasonable and expectable consequence for that and that takes care of the story for the next few months of sessions. Or even longer since Dragons scale really well as baddies.

[hamishspence]

Frost Giants are also (in lore at least) extremely powerful on their own account. If you're the kind of person that needs to hire somebody to do this you're probably not that powerful. Also White Dragons are as pointed out, kind of not the same as others. Also, I'm pretty sure that they're breeding them, not butchering them. Once you start wantonly murdering dragonkind, especially baby dragonkind that's very likely to get you some pretty negative attention.

Yup - in the Prince of Lies Forgotten Realms novel, a baby white dragon that had been butchered for its organs, got animated as an undead and sent back home, and the resulting attack by an army of white dragons (among other monsters) devastated the city of Zhentil Keep.


So, even white dragons, with enough provocation, will band together to attack those who harm their offspring sufficiently.

[AMFV]

Yup - in the Prince of Lies Forgotten Realms novel, a baby white dragon that had been butchered for its organs, got animated as an undead and sent back home, and the resulting attack by an army of white dragons (among other monsters) devastated the city of Zhentil Keep.


So, even white dragons, with enough provocation, will band together to attack those who harm their offspring sufficiently.

That's okay I'm sure a bunch of clones of the boss survived.

[Samael Morgenst]

Frost Giants are also (in lore at least) extremely powerful on their own account.

Not so much...
for the most they are beefy brute that a single decently optimized spellcaster can easily overpower or trick by level 7 or so.

...so I guess my question is - would it hamper you to switch to breeding white dragons instead?

Well... no, I guess it can be done with whites too, as long they are True Dragons.

Also, I'm pretty sure that they're breeding them, not butchering them.

From Monster Manual 1:

White dragons’ natural enemies are frost giants, who kill the
dragons for food and armor and capture them to use as guards.

[AMFV]

Not so much...
for the most they are beefy brute that a single decently optimized spellcaster can easily overpower or trick by level 7 or so.

You know that they get class levels too, right? Like the ones in the MM are generic mooks. Like even in adventure modules you have suboptimized ones with class levels.

Well... no, I guess it can be done with whites too, as long they are True Dragons.

I think you'd still have a lot of problems.

From Monster Manual 1:

That doesn't say anything about infants. Intelligent creatures tend to regard infanticide as considerably worse. And Dragons are intelligent creatures. And even then you have as presented lore examples of White Dragons taking revenge and they're the most chaotic least organized of the bunch.

[Unoriginal]

Not so much...
for the most they are beefy brute that a single decently optimized spellcaster can easily overpower or trick by level 7 or so.

If a single decently optimized caster needs to be lvl 7 or more to easily handle your basic mook, in 3.5, you're a pretty frighteningly powerful faction.

Most of the world is far less powerful than "easily beaten by a single decently optimized 7th level spellcaster".

[Inevitability]

In any world where level 7 human casters are optimized enough to beat mid-level monsters solo, so are the giant casters. The monster manual explicitly spells out that frost giant leaders tend to be barbarians, fighters, clerics, or sorcerers, and more broadly that 'many groups of frost giants include clerics' (note the plural). You can't just vaguely gesture at the tremendous power of spells here, not when your enemies have the exact same spells.

edit: also wait, the sample frost giant blackguard given has too low a wisdom score to cast his 3rd- and 4th-level spells? WotC, why?

[AMFV]

In any world where level 7 human casters are optimized enough to beat mid-level monsters solo, so are the giant casters. The monster manual explicitly spells out that frost giant leaders tend to be barbarians, fighters, clerics, or sorcerers, and more broadly that 'many groups of frost giants include clerics' (note the plural). You can't just vaguely gesture at the tremendous power of spells here, not when your enemies have the exact same spells.

edit: also wait, the sample frost giant blackguard given has too low a wisdom score to cast his 3rd- and 4th-level spells? WotC, why?

Presumably he uses his NPC gear to buy a Wisdom boosting item.

[Inevitability]

Presumably he uses his NPC gear to buy a Wisdom boosting item.

He comes with NPC gear - apparently +2 fullplate was considered more important than that periapt.

[AMFV]

He comes with NPC gear - apparently +2 fullplate was considered more important than that periapt.

You can't ever look at WotC statblocks, it's like gazing into the abyss... Fortunately you can like give him actual good stuff. Just make all his class levels nonassociated! I can't see any problem with that!