Book Club: Player's Handbook II

[Chronos]

To me, what defines a gish isn't just that they can cast and swing a weapon. They have to have abilities that integrate both of those together. The duskblade has that, while most other gishing options don't.

[pabelfly]

Chapter 5: Building Your Identity

So, if the previous chapters have all been providing new material to help someone create a new character, we’re now at the point where we’re deciding how to roleplay that character.

If you need a bit of help roleplaying, this seems pretty solid – you’re given a bunch of different backgrounds, roleplay prompts, and character arc suggestions to use.

However, I’d question the potential disparity between the roleplay and a character’s skill points. Skill points would help reinforce character backgrounds mechanically, but nothing is given here to support that. For example, its suggested that a drifter can find shelter anywhere they go, and have lots of stories to tell about various locations, but that’s not going to be supported by the game if you don’t have ranks in Survival and Knowledge (Local). It would have been nice if they’d perhaps thrown in some traits to support this.

But what does everyone else think about the chapter?

[Inevitability]

The background sections are alright. Like, they're nice prompts for someone looking to flesh out their character some, the little bops of roleplaying suggestions are fun. I don't actually like the youth bits that much: if your farming background is already comfortably established, you don't need a section that says 'as a kid, you did chores on the farm'.

Definitely agreeing with pabel that the lack of actual mechanical benefit here limits how much you can actually get use out of this: if the designers did not want to include another mechanic, they could at least have hedged a little there.

That is, instead of writing "as a gladiator you're an expert on armor, weapons, or fighting styles" they could put something like "your training as a gladiator must have exposed you to many armor, weapons, and fighting styles - did that knowledge stick? If you still can't tell a glaive from a guisarme, how did you survive your gladiatorial matches? Or perhaps some injury robbed you of your skill - a result of the fights, or something inflicted deliberately?"

Like, a guy with a gladiatorial background who's now a cloistered cleric is interesting, but it will have people asking why your former gladiator can't wield a sword to save his life, and the book should pre-empt that and provide some suggestions.

An artisan without ranks in Appraise or Craft might've been a spoiled noble brat pushed into a cushy guild position and allowed to pass the work of apprentices off as his own - did their resentment build into something more? Alternatively, he might be from a place (or time) far removed from ours, and his craftsmanship no more practically applicable than a knack for carving moon rocks would be. An ascetic without knowledge ranks might come from an incredibly dogmatic place that did not permit outside works, or might have received a training focused on the development of personal power over the acquisition of knowledge - why these skewed priorities? A drifter without ranks in survival might've gotten by on charitable aid: what organization provided it, and what's your relationship with them now? Etc etc.

[pabelfly]

Since we're about two weeks away from the end of the book, I think it's time to start asking what our next book will be.

I'd like to alternate between first-party and third-party stuff. Does anyone have any suggestions on good third-party material we could look at?

[Wildstag]

I've always appreciated this chapter, it's the sort of thing that should have been in the PHB, all too often D&D fans focus exclusively on mechanics and not on the roles they're actually playing. This provides some aid for people that aren't so creative on their own. Plus, I don't think some of the examples given here are necessarily good.

Like, just because you've traveled doesn't mean you know much about the localities or should have a bonus to it. You have personal stories to tell, or maybe at most the rumors heard at the dinner table between your hosts and yourself. That's not necessarily knowledge though. Examples such as the ascetic quoting scripture isn't necessarily information relevant to Knowledge (Religion) checks. In books like the Races of X, you get examples of phrases your character might use to express their faith or their culture. It's nice spice for a character.

As far as the weeks go, we've got three chapters left in this book, so we should be done by the end of May. My vote is one of the "Races of" books, maybe starting alphabetically? It'd be less focus on mechanics and more on that flavorful spice I mentioned earlier, but they're still great.

[holbita]

Since we're about two weeks away from the end of the book, I think it's time to start asking what our next book will be.

I'd like to alternate between first-party and third-party stuff. Does anyone have any suggestions on good third-party material we could look at?

Either "Magic" or "Secrets" from AEG.

[pabelfly]

As far as the weeks go, we've got three chapters left in this book, so we should be done by the end of May. My vote is one of the "Races of" books, maybe starting alphabetically? It'd be less focus on mechanics and more on that flavorful spice I mentioned earlier, but they're still great.

I think a Races book would be a pretty good choice after we've done a third-party book.

Either "Magic" or "Secrets" from AEG.

I had a quick look at Secrets, and that seems promising - a variety of content and some interesting presentation there.

Magic is interesting for being written by the future lead designer of 5e, and has a lot more variety than I first thought it would.

Anyone else got any opinions on what our next book should be?

[Troacctid]

I'd like to do a DM-facing book like Exemplars of Evil, Fiendish Codex I, or Elder Evils. Alternatively, it would be pretty cool to do an issue of Dragon or Dungeon Magazine.

[Inevitability]

I'd like to do a DM-facing book like Exemplars of Evil, Fiendish Codex I, or Elder Evils. Alternatively, it would be pretty cool to do an issue of Dragon or Dungeon Magazine.

I like these ideas! I'd be much less interested in 3rd-party work.

[pabelfly]

I'd like to alternate between first-party and third-party stuff. Does anyone have any suggestions on good third-party material we could look at?

Well, it looks like most other people aren't particularly interested in third-party stuff (and maybe we can go as far as Dragon Magazine). Fair enough, I'll drop the idea.

I'll keep an eye on what everyone is suggesting. Thanks for the responses so far.

[Wildstag]

Magic is interesting for being written by the future lead designer of 5e, and has a lot more variety than I first thought it would.

I'm fairly certain that's the case for most of AEG's work. Or at least, I've seen Good and Evil in the same book store and they both have Mearls in the Writing credits. Good even has him as the Project Manager.

[pabelfly]

Chapter 6: The Adventuring Group

This chapter covers the background lore for why a team forms, if you wanted to improve your roleplay here. There’s also some advice on how to play well with a group. If you’re someone who struggles with social etiquette, and aren’t sure how to interact with others, I could see this being rather handy advice.

Next up, we have something called “Teamwork Benefits”, which I was unaware of before reading this chapter. I really appreciate Book Club for little nuggets like this. If you and at least one other person in the party meet prerequisites, typically having skill ranks, you can get some benefits. Fortunately, this doesn’t have to be everyone in the party. Some of these each are suited for adventurers, others might be more useful for DMs looking to slightly boost enemies, and some are so absurdly specific I don’t see them happening at all.

I’ll give a chance for other posters to give their opinions first, before I post my reviews of each Teamwork Benefit.

Lastly, admin stuff - I'm still looking at suggestions for our next book in two weeks. Since two people like the idea of doing a DM support book, I'm happy to look at one of those, unless another suggestion gains traction. It seems that crunch like alternate classes, feats and so forth gets more discussion than RP guidance, so I'll dig through the suggested DM-oriented books to see what of the suggested books are best for this.

[Inevitability]

I like the adventuring party backgrounds: reminds me a little of Blades in the Dark, which effectively turned that into a full-blown game mechanic with your party-as-a-whole being one of several different types and leveling along with the players.

I like how the little so-this-is-a-barbarian section needs to dance around the fact that barbarians don't get Spot while calling them 'great scouts'. Also beautiful how they all but outright say 'monks can do nothing but stay alive'.

Interesting how the 'missing warrior' bit doesn't even bring up summoning despite mentioning druids by name.

Will also have a better look at the teamwork benefits before posting about them.

[pabelfly]

The quick summary:
Best player options: Awareness, Camp Routine, Group Trance, Massed Charge, and Steadfast Resolve. They have the best benefits and you’re most likely to qualify for these ones.

Best DM options: Awareness, Cunning Ambush, Steadfast Resolve, Team Shield Manoeuver, Wall of Steel. If you want to add a bit of bulk or some slightly better numbers or strategies to your enemy stats, these are your best options.

The essay version:
The first problem with Teamwork Benefits is that this wants players to have skill points partially invested in the same skills, but players generally have other skills relevant to their character they’re fully investing in instead. Fortunately, there’s enough options that you’ll have a few you’ll qualify for, and the best ones are pretty easy to qualify for.

Last, these benefits will be more useful for larger groups, where it’s more likely that you’ll have a few people meet the prerequisites to take advantage of them.




Awareness – this setup seems like it is common enough, given that Listen and Spot are common skills to take, and you’ll typically be within 30ft of your allies most of the time. This one is worth remembering.

Camp Routine – take a single rank in Survival to get a conditional +2 to Listen and Spot. Very good deal, this will probably be what you want to get at level 5.

Circle of Blades – having someone with Weapon Specialization and someone else with Sneak Attack isn’t going to be common. And if you somehow meet that requirement, you need to ready an action. And if you do all that, you get a +2 to damage. I don’t see this happening often or being worthwhile to train in for when it does, is what I’m saying.

Crowded Charge – the problem with this is that characters who don’t want to be jumping about (so, anyone that’s not an ubercharger) aren’t taking ranks in Jump.

Cunning Ambush – my experience is that characters are typically travelling to a problem and don’t have the opportunity to ambush enemies. Maybe a DM can make use of this one, though.

Expert Mountaineer – I have never played a character that took any ranks in Use Rope, and I’ve rarely climbed mountains. There might be games where this is useful but I don’t play in them.

Foe Hunting – if you have Favored Enemy +4, you can flank to do extra damage. But you already should be doing pretty good damage if you have a +4 to said damage rolls, never mind the other bonuses Ranger can get to their favoured enemies.

Group Trance – if you’re an Elf or half-elf, this lets a party member gain the benefits of sleep with just four hours of rest. No-one is using half-elf, but Elf is pretty solid for many casting types. If you’re in a situation where time is of the essence and you need to recover spells, this could be useful. The requirements of team members are suitably low too.

Indirect Fire – if you’re in the right position, you can spend a move action to help an archer mitigate the effects of cover on a target, or give them a +2 to attack rolls. The problem will be being in the right position, and then having the move action to spare in the specific turn you’d need to spend it. This is too narrow a use case to train in over other, more broader options.

Like a Rock – you can give adjacent allies a +4 against Bull Rush checks. Unfortunately, Bull Rushes aren’t that common. Secondly, allies don’t normally stand next to eachother in combat for a variety of reasons.

Massed Charge – this is pretty good, provided your Team Leader with the high Balance skill has a good initiative. This means a bunch of your allies can attack sooner, and I think we all know how to optimize a charge.

Missile Volley – my dnd group typically has zero or one person doing an archery build, this requires that you have two of them with specific feats. But let’s say you do meet these circumstances. You’ll be trading multiple attacks for a single, slightly more accurate attack. Not a good trade.

Steadfast Resolve – Iron Will is a common prereq feat for a bunch of prestige classes, including Ur-Priest and Incantatrix, as well as the Reserves of Strength feat. So, occasionally, you’ll meet this requirement in the party, and if you do, you can also pencil in a +2 to certain Will saves, which is a nice free boost.

Superior Team Effort – my experience, the person who is taking skill focus for a skill has so thoroughly optimized for that particular skill that Aid Another isn’t relevant for passing the DC of the intended skill check. And taking Skill Focus is rather rare anyway, since it’s horribly underpowered.

Team Rush – does anyone care about overland movement speed being different for different party members?

Team Melee Tactics – first, Combat Expertise and Dodge are occasional feat taxes for melee builds, so you might sometimes qualify for this one. You still won’t have someone who wants to trade their turn for someone else, and if you do, that boost in accuracy is 5% - not really worth bothering about for one single attack.

Team Shield Manoeuver – using a shield is a suboptimal strategy, so having two people in the group using one would be rare, and even then, the two have to be adjacent to eachother to get this effect. I just don’t see this happening often in play.

Wall of Steel – as above, and an arcane spellcaster has much better options to boost their AC than this.

[Inevitability]

Awareness: This feels... incredibly bland. And kind of useless, to boot, given that this is D&D 3.5 and by the time you hit level 9, giving a +2 to the uninvested 10 wisdom fighter doesn't really matter when enemy sneaks have stealth modifiers hovering around the low twenties. Just poor design.

Camp Routine: Rather weak, but at least there's something here. A clear use case for why we'd care about the low-perception guy getting a bonus, a benefit for the highly invested party members still, and some fun flavor.

Circle of Blades: Readied action attacks aren't the greatest strategy (I guess this might be fun in E6?), and what's up with the prerequisites? What is it about 'hitting a guy at the same time' that specifically calls for fighter/rogue synergy?

Crowded Charge: Now this I like; a very clean solution to a problem likely to arise in certain parties. The requirement is meaningful without being punishing and has some innate synergy with Leap Attack, Tiger Claw maneuvers, etc.

(Improved) Cunning Ambush: Another fun one! Ambushes aren't the most common but this makes them a lot more viable. My only qualm is the random-seeming Listen requirement. The improvement is great as well. This is what a teamwork benefit should look like: a way to enable a whole new way of play on the party-wide level.

Expert Mountaineers: I dislike this solely because 'climbing' should rapidly stop being a tool in your arsenal around level 5. Outside of that, it's great: the skillful character gets a time to shine and everyone else benefits.

Foe Hunting: A bit bland, but I'll take it. Encouraging flanks is nice and I like the flavor of the ranger imparting some of his favored enemy knowledge.

Group Trance: Miles better than Camp Routine, but race-restricted so w/e. I like this a lot; very elegant design.

Indirect Fire: I get why this had to be a teamwork benefit, and I don't even think it's weak, but that's about it. The action required feels really rough for whoever is pointing out the invisible foe, though I guess a caster might not mind that much.

Like a Rock: Very situational, but at least it's flavorful.

Massed Charge: Sure, it requires a very specific kind of party, but it's cool! There's not a lot of teamwork benefits where I'd show them to my table and ask everyone to build around it, but this might be one of them. I think some White Raven maneuvers qualify also.

Missile Volley: All-archer is significantly harder to make work than all-charger. It's neat.

Steadfast Resolve: Fear can be nasty, but this still feels like a lot of investment (Iron Will? Really?) for not all that much payoff.

Superior Team Effort: I question how many parties even use Aid Another to begin with, but the design is impeccable: let the skill-booster shine while everyone else gets to meaningfully contribute.

Team Melee Tactics: I think there's 1 feat in tome of battle that kinda somewhat encourages using aid another for attack rolls? And that one opportunity attack feat? But generally, this keys off of an action that's simply not worth doing. The combat expertise requirement kills it dead for me.

Team Rush: I kinda like this one! Not sure how it works, but I like the mental image of a 40 ft. speed orc barbarian dragging along the poor little gnome fighter.

Team Shield Maneuver: 3.5 design keeps assuming that characters falling to the negatives is a common occurrence, instead of something that mathematically stops happening as HP scales. The effect is cool, when it applies, so points for that, but shields need all the help they can get and I'd have liked to see this be a bit stronger.

Wall of Steel: Very exploitable: I like it! I think I saw someone use this with Inlindl School to get incredibly high to-hit. But also in general just a nice way to protect your allies; great, evocative design.

[Darg]

I like the adventuring party backgrounds: reminds me a little of Blades in the Dark, which effectively turned that into a full-blown game mechanic with your party-as-a-whole being one of several different types and leveling along with the players.

I like how the little so-this-is-a-barbarian section needs to dance around the fact that barbarians don't get Spot while calling them 'great scouts'. Also beautiful how they all but outright say 'monks can do nothing but stay alive'.

Interesting how the 'missing warrior' bit doesn't even bring up summoning despite mentioning druids by name.

Will also have a better look at the teamwork benefits before posting about them.

You only need spot for scouting if you are expecting an ambush. Finding the cave you want to go to or spotting an enemy camp doesn't actually entail using the spot skill. Moving 33% faster also has its perks for scouting.

[Lilapop]

Clerics and druids are competent warriors in their own right, and with the right set of buff spells [...], they can be the equals of nearly any warrior-type character.

Wow, did they actually start playing their own game after like six years?

(such as bull’s strength, magic weapon, and the like)

Nope, they still haven't a clue. If the first thing that comes to mind here is NOT divine power, then I guess we shouldn't be surprised they are thinking about high-AC, attritional fighting when talking about the monk

Team Rush – does anyone care about overland movement speed being different for different party members?

Overland speed is a function of tactical speed, and your fastest party member can easily have more than double that of the slowest. So if you key your overland to exclusively the high number, it too doubles. That may be meaningless in some campaigns, but in others it could be quite crucial. Of course, you could achieve the same by the barbarian wearing the tibbit as a fur stole and the sorcerer riding on the dire wolf animal companion (or popping feathers [legendary eagle] plus some other druid spells for an easy 264 miles/day).

[pabelfly]

So, I agree with most of Inevitability's assessments, just a few comments to add.

Awareness: This feels... incredibly bland. And kind of useless, to boot, given that this is D&D 3.5 and by the time you hit level 9, giving a +2 to the uninvested 10 wisdom fighter doesn't really matter when enemy sneaks have stealth modifiers hovering around the low twenties. Just poor design.

I kind of disagree with you there. This applies to all team members, so it's going to apply to both the Fighter that has no Spot and Listen, and the Ranger who has full ranks in both. If you've got a caster that wants to do stuff like alarms and whatever, this is less relevant, but if you want to use skill checks, this is pretty decent.

(Improved) Cunning Ambush: Another fun one! Ambushes aren't the most common but this makes them a lot more viable. My only qualm is the random-seeming Listen requirement. The improvement is great as well. This is what a teamwork benefit should look like: a way to enable a whole new way of play on the party-wide level.

It's been my experience that party members don't normally get the chance to set up an ambush. However, I think this is good for the DM though, if he wants a mechanical justification for setting up an ambush that's hard for the players to detect.

Massed Charge: Sure, it requires a very specific kind of party, but it's cool! There's not a lot of teamwork benefits where I'd show them to my table and ask everyone to build around it, but this might be one of them. I think some White Raven maneuvers qualify also.

This is a pretty fair point. Hell, I might do that for my table myself.

Steadfast Resolve: Fear can be nasty, but this still feels like a lot of investment (Iron Will? Really?) for not all that much payoff.

I wouldn't pick Iron Will in of itself for a build or this ability, but there's a few different reasons to get it - classes like Incantatrix, Ur-Priest, and Runescarred Berserker require it, and you need it for the Reserves of Strength feat, among other less-likely use cases. If I got Iron Will on my build for some reason, this would be a nice secondary benefit I could pass around.

[Inevitability]

I kind of disagree with you there. This applies to all team members, so it's going to apply to both the Fighter that has no Spot and Listen, and the Ranger who has full ranks in both. If you've got a caster that wants to do stuff like alarms and whatever, this is less relevant, but if you want to use skill checks, this is pretty decent.

[...]

I wouldn't pick Iron Will in of itself for a build or this ability, but there's a few different reasons to get it - classes like Incantatrix, Ur-Priest, and Runescarred Berserker require it, and you need it for the Reserves of Strength feat, among other less-likely use cases. If I got Iron Will on my build for some reason, this would be a nice secondary benefit I could pass around.

Fair point on Steadfast Resolve; I hadn't considered the case where you've got Iron Will anyway, and I really should have. It's pretty good then yeah.

As for Awareness: perhaps 'useless' was the wrong word, but 'pointless as a teamwork benefit' seems accurate. A teamwork benefit, by design, is meant to create synergy between a highly skilled leader and several less-skilled members; typically by the latter assisting the former, but sometimes the other way around. This doesn't do either.

If you've got one party member with maxed Spot and Listen and three with no investment, the only meaningful effect awareness has is that it gives +2 to the perceptive guy's skills. It's a 'teamwork benefit' that doesn't really involve the team at all - it just improves the PC who was going to be making the check anyway. Where's the teamwork?

If I had to make a teamwork benefit for spot/listen (difficult given how much spot/listen is a skill where you really only need one person to pass) my first thought would've been something more like Indirect Fire, and my second a way to prevent allies from being surprised/flanked/flat-footed if you yourself are not. If I was going to make it a plain bonus, I'd at least have it scale to the number of allies within 30 feet.

[Darg]

I think the biggest thing to keep in mind is that not every teamwork benefit works for every group and not every party member needs to be part of every team. Teamwork benefits are there to be something extra and not really a "build your character around" type of set up.

Awareness: Got 2+ classes with spot as a class skill as part of your party? Investing 2 ranks isn't going to harm them in any way shape or form and you get the benefit of more easily spotting enemies. This stacks with Camp Routine and is practically free with Indirect Fire.

Camp Routine: 1 rank isn't much of an investment and stacks with Camp Routine. In scenarios where this would be valuable, the endurance feat can be as well. These combo well with the Team Rush benefit.

Circle of Blades: This is one of those that are best as a passive benefit as it isn't exactly a stretch that a fighter would have weapon specialization and rogues can't take extra attacks using a standard action anyways. This also combos well with a character making use of the spring attack feat.

Crowded Charge: Obviously good and combos well with Massed Charge.

Cunning Ambush: Both it and the improved version are simply excellent.

Expert Mountaineers: Stacking bonus to climb checks from strongest to weakest climbers in a group for 1 rank? Yes please. Despite Inevitability's claim, options for allowing a team to traverse climbing terrain over the course of a day are pretty limited until higher levels as they only last rounds/1-10 minutes per level. Not every group has an abundance of casters either.

Foe Hunting: Lots of teamwork benefits need a rank of survival and so this is pretty much free damage for parties with a ranger in the group.

Group Trance: I've always been a fan of elves' meditation to skip sleep. If you have a group with 0 arcane casters you just gained yourself 4 hours per day. Otherwise you've gained the ability to reduce the number of watches and increase the number of eyes on watch. Combos well with the spot and survival benefits.

Indirect Fire: A group wide melee AND ranged blindfight and sharp shooting feats and location pinpointing unseen creatures for just the cost of a single move action and 3 ranks in spot? Oh heck yes.

Like a Rock: It's basically a free benefit. 1 rank isn't going to kill anyone and you need the rank anyways for Massed Charge.

Massed Charge: Bigger power attacks or more likely to hit. No real downside unless you are low in the initiative order.

Missile Volley: Assumes your team isn't a bunch of muscleheaded uberchargers. PBS and rapid shot are actually excellent feats usable with thrown weapons in melee too. Might be unattainable if you didn't know that, but if you did it's pretty likely you'll get access to this benefit. This benefit helps everyone hit at the cost of their less likely to hit attacks. Win win at all ranges in my book.

Steadfast Resolve: I mean, if you have 8 ranks of concentration AND iron will, why not? Considering the necessity for a less than necessary feat I can't say this is ever going to see play. Might be worth it if the benefit stacked with itself, but the wording seems to preclude that interpretation. Recommended: remove the iron will requirement and replace it with a Wisdom score of 15.

Superior Team Effort: If you use aid another to help with a particular skill check that a character has skill focus for then it's perfectly fine. Combos well with cunning ambush though. Outside of that, can't really see this getting much use. Recommend just removing the skill focus feat requirement.

Team Melee Tactics: If your build uses combat expertise and dodge, it's free. Using aid another to improve another's attack roll is already really rare and magic is available for hard to hit enemies. I just don't think this will ever see much use. Maybe if it had the benefit of causing the creature hit to provoke an AoO?

Team Rush: If you don't or can't use mounts, can speed up travel a lot. Please say thank you to your monk travel mule.

Team Shield Maneuver: Shield Specialization gives access to some decent PHB2 shield feats. If you got that already this is a 100% free benefit. Not great if you are using animated shields as the game eventually assumes you will.

Wall of Steel: If you have a fighter, this is 100% free and has a great effect. Even though you can't stack the benefit of this benefit with itself, giving up to a +7-10 AC to another is a huge advantage.

[pabelfly]

Steadfast Resolve: I mean, if you have 8 ranks of concentration AND iron will, why not? Considering the necessity for a less than necessary feat I can't say this is ever going to see play. Might be worth it if the benefit stacked with itself, but the wording seems to preclude that interpretation. Recommended: remove the iron will requirement and replace it with a Wisdom score of 15.

I did look up Iron Will to see what prestige classes required it, and the most popular options would be Incantatrix, Ur-Priest, and maybe Nar Demonbinder. There's also the Reserves of Strength feat that also requires Iron Will. If I were running a build with one of those classes (or one of the other less-likely options that requires both Iron Will and Concentration ranks), I'd strongly consider sharing this teamwork benefit with the rest of the party.