My Math-Fu is failing me

[RNightstalker]

So I'm going to have a character with a +5 Defending weapon soon, with a magic price of 72,000 on top of the weapon itself. If my next improvement were to make it a +6 Defending weapon, how do I calculate that cost? The +6 enhancement puts it at epic, but still overall a +7 weapon. Does it jump to the +7 epic price or is it epic +6 +regular +7?

[Biggus]

It would jump to the price for a +7 epic weapon:

Note that the +6 to +10 rows apply only to weapons that provide an enhancement bonus of +6 to + 10 or weapons with a single special ability whose market price modifier is +6 to +10

[RNightstalker]

Thanks, that's the answer I was afraid of.

[Darg]

What is your goal with the +6 enhancement? One way around the epic limit is to give the weapon bane. Against particular enemies the enhancement bonus is treated as +2 higher. This would allow you to get a +7 AC with a +5 xbane defending weapon against particular creatures. Otherwise, you could start adding custom spells to the weapon like casting divine favor or something.

[Biggus]

Thanks, that's the answer I was afraid of.

Yeah, the price for getting epic enhancements on a weapon which already has special abilities always seemed unfair to me. With a weapon which is only +6 total before going epic the difference between calculating the two "sides" separately or together isn't that great, but with a +10 weapon it's massive. Might be worth asking your DM about it, this is one of the major ways martials get screwed compared to casters at epic.

What is your goal with the +6 enhancement? One way around the epic limit is to give the weapon bane. Against particular enemies the enhancement bonus is treated as +2 higher. This would allow you to get a +7 AC with a +5 xbane defending weapon against particular creatures. Otherwise, you could start adding custom spells to the weapon like casting divine favor or something.

Given that there are 31 categories of bane weapon this is going to be of limited use unless you know the campaign is going to be really heavy on one type of foe. There are some bane weapon spells though; Undead Bane Weapon (SpC) lasts for an hour per level but obviously only works against undead, Bladebane (UE) only lasts a round per level and costs 500GP per casting but that's nothing compared to the cost of an actual epic weapon. If Dragon Magazine content is allowed the best general option is Bane Weapon (#297, p.47) which lasts ten minutes per level and doesn't have a material component cost.

[Darg]

Yeah, the price for getting epic enhancements on a weapon which already has special abilities always seemed unfair to me. With a weapon which is only +6 total before going epic the difference between calculating the two "sides" separately or together isn't that great, but with a +10 weapon it's massive. Might be worth asking your DM about it, this is one of the major ways martials get screwed compared to casters at epic.

To be fair, ELH is 3.0 and the update doesn't make it wholly 3.5 content. In 3.0, your enhancement bonus also has the property of bypassing some pretty significant damage reduction.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Stacking all of the possible bane enhancements on a weapon crystal (MIC) is quite cheap.

Also, grab a tooth of Leraje for a 20 hour greater magic weapon +5.

Also also, the kakita katana from OA can net you a +2 non-magical enhancement bonus to attack and damage. It's non-magical, so it doesn't apply against the cost for any magical enhancements you add, but it is an enhancement bonus, which qualifies for magical enhancement in the first place.

Now all you have to pay for on that weapon is defending, but you gain all of the benefits of a +5 bane (everything) weapon.

Or if you want, you could take a raptor arrow, add sizing and morphing, and it now has bane (everything), doesn't require any weapon crystals, and since it can be enhanced as ammo, all enhancements are 1/50 the cost.

[RNightstalker]

What is your goal with the +6 enhancement? One way around the epic limit is to give the weapon bane. Against particular enemies the enhancement bonus is treated as +2 higher. This would allow you to get a +7 AC with a +5 xbane defending weapon against particular creatures. Otherwise, you could start adding custom spells to the weapon like casting divine favor or something.

Continuing to increase the AC bonus, thats it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Continuing to increase the AC bonus, thats it.

Defending explicitly stacks with all other forms of AC bonus. Couldn't you just get a whole bunch of +1 defending weapons (sleeve blades, wrist blades, knee blades, boot blades, braid blades, etc, all of which have bayonets) and pay for a Chained permanency'd greater magic weapon?

[Darg]

Defending explicitly stacks with all other forms of AC bonus. Couldn't you just get a whole bunch of +1 defending weapons (sleeve blades, wrist blades, knee blades, boot blades, braid blades, etc, all of which have bayonets) and pay for a Chained permanency'd greater magic weapon?

Depends on how the DM defines "same source." Just like how multiple instances of a spell counts as the same source, benefiting from the same weapon special ability could be considered the same source.

[Biggus]

Continuing to increase the AC bonus, thats it.

That seems like the most expensive possible way to increase your AC. Even if the pricing worked the way you hoped pretty much any other way would be cheaper. Is there a particular reason you want this specific kind of AC bonus?

[RNightstalker]

Defending explicitly stacks with all other forms of AC bonus. Couldn't you just get a whole bunch of +1 defending weapons (sleeve blades, wrist blades, knee blades, boot blades, braid blades, etc, all of which have bayonets) and pay for a Chained permanency'd greater magic weapon?

We're not going to see eye to eye that multiple defending bonuses will stack...It's a nice idea and quite imbalancing. While technically, extremely technically RAW, most people can tell that RAI is that multiple defending bonuses won't stack with themselves, but will all others...

Depends on how the DM defines "same source." Just like how multiple instances of a spell counts as the same source, benefiting from the same weapon special ability could be considered the same source.

I agree. If something like that were allowed, I'm not going to DM a game for a speed run.

That seems like the most expensive possible way to increase your AC. Even if the pricing worked the way you hoped pretty much any other way would be cheaper. Is there a particular reason you want this specific kind of AC bonus?

The campaign it's in will be going to at least 40th, and the DM has houseruled so far that epic weapon enhancements are still bonus squared times 2,000 instead of the 20,000 upcharge. I'm actually trying to talk him out of or at least altering a little bit for balance. I want the bonus because at some point that will be cheaper than upgrading something else from a +14 to a +15.

[InvisibleBison]

Or if you want, you could take a raptor arrow, add sizing and morphing, and it now has bane (everything), doesn't require any weapon crystals, and since it can be enhanced as ammo, all enhancements are 1/50 the cost.

Morphing can't be applied to ammunition; it's only available for melee or thrown weapons.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Getting a decent AC at high levels is a losing proposition. It's ridiculously expensive if you don't stack cheap defending weapons.

Why not make yourself un-attackable, instead? Lots of miss chances, lots of ranks in and bonuses to Hide, negating sight and special senses, stacking tons of penalties and negative status effects on opponents, using decoys to force enemies to attack things other than you and to waste actions and resources, and so on. It can be very expensive at low levels, but far less expensive than decent AC at high levels.

Alchemical items alone can do a lot for you, and they're much cheaper at high levels, especially if you can craft them yourself.

Morphing can't be applied to ammunition; it's only available for melee or thrown weapons.

Arrows can be used as melee weapons, so...

Alternatively, enhance a morphing weapon as a raptor arrow.

[InvisibleBison]

Arrows can be used as melee weapons, so...

Arrows used as melee weapons are improvised weapons, and thus can't be enchanted.

Alternatively, enhance a morphing weapon as a raptor arrow.

You can only make an arrow into a raptor arrow, and morphing weapons can only turn into melee or thrown weapons.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Arrows used as melee weapons are improvised weapons, and thus can't be enchanted.



You can only make an arrow into a raptor arrow, and morphing weapons can only turn into melee or thrown weapons.

Err... No?

The wielder of a morphing weapon can reshape it into any other weapon of the same type (light, one-handed, or two-handed) as a standard action. For instance, a morphing longsword could become a battleaxe or a composite longbow. If a single weapon created with the morphing property becomes a double weapon, only one end of the double weapon has the weapon's magical bonus. If a double weapon created with the morphing property becomes a single weapon, it can have the properties of either end of the original double weapon.

The properties of the other end are dormant but not lost; they become active again when the morphing weapon once again becomes a double weapon.

[InvisibleBison]

Err... No?

The ability was updated in the Magic Item Compendium.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The ability was updated in the Magic Item Compendium.

Huh.

Well, regardless, improvised melee weapons are still melee weapons, because they're weapons being used in melee. Arrows can be used as such explicitly. Unless we have a rule stating that improvised melee weapons are not weapons usable in melee...?

[InvisibleBison]

Huh.

Well, regardless, improvised melee weapons are still melee weapons, because they're weapons being used in melee. Arrows can be used as such explicitly. Unless we have a rule stating that improvised melee weapons are not weapons usable in melee...?

You can only enchant masterwork weapons, and improvised weapons cannot be masterwork weapons.

[RNightstalker]

You can only enchant masterwork weapons, and improvised weapons cannot be masterwork weapons.

I hate to do this but to his point, a masterwork arrow used to stab someone (Legolas was a big fan of it so it's got some precedent) would be a masterwork improvised, unless there's something specific that I don't know of. But to your point, just because anything can really be used as an improvised weapon, doesn't mean it's classified as a melee weapon. That's what makes the difference.

[InvisibleBison]

I hate to do this but to his point, a masterwork arrow used to stab someone (Legolas was a big fan of it so it's got some precedent) would be a masterwork improvised, unless there's something specific that I don't know of. But to your point, just because anything can really be used as an improvised weapon, doesn't mean it's classified as a melee weapon. That's what makes the difference.

You can't have a masterwork improvised weapon, they're mutually exclusive categories. Items that are masterwork in some other capacity can be used as improvised weapons, but they don't transfer the masterwork property into their use as a weapon.

[RNightstalker]

You can't have a masterwork improvised weapon, they're mutually exclusive categories. Items that are masterwork in some other capacity can be used as improvised weapons, but they don't transfer the masterwork property into their use as a weapon.

Just for shiggles, you have a source on that?

[Remuko]

You can't have a masterwork improvised weapon, they're mutually exclusive categories. Items that are masterwork in some other capacity can be used as improvised weapons, but they don't transfer the masterwork property into their use as a weapon.

that seems kinda silly to me. I want an epic level bartender who had all the furniture in his bar made masterwork quality so its all enchanted as magic weapons for epic bar brawls!

[InvisibleBison]

Just for shiggles, you have a source on that?

It's not explicit, but something I think is implied by the rules for masterwork and improvised weapons:

A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon.

Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat.

It's not possible for something to simultaneously be both not crafted to use as a weapon and a more finely crafted than normal weapon.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's not explicit, but something I think is implied by the rules for masterwork and improvised weapons:




It's not possible for something to simultaneously be both not crafted to use as a weapon and a more finely crafted than normal weapon.

Err, you do know that arrows are weapons and are, in fact, crafted to be used in combat, yes? Also, they can absolutely be masterwork.

[InvisibleBison]

Err, you do know that arrows are weapons and are, in fact, crafted to be used in combat, yes? Also, they can absolutely be masterwork.

Arrows are not built to be used as melee weapons. A masterwork arrow's masterwork-ness lies in things like a well-balanced shaft, choice feathers used in the fletching, extra care put into attaching the pieces together, the notch that rides on the bowstring being of exactly the ideal depth, etc - things that improve its ability to be shot out of a bow and hit a target. None of these things matter when using it as a melee weapon, and thus it is no more a masterwork melee weapon than a masterwork breastplate that you hit someone with.

[Darg]

Getting a decent AC at high levels is a losing proposition. It's ridiculously expensive if you don't stack cheap defending weapons.

Is it though? Oil of magic vestment +5 is only 3k, potion of shield of faith +5 is only 900, potion of barkskin +5 is only 1.2k. You don't need maxed out AC vs every creature.

Mithril full plate +3: 11-14 AC; 19,650gp
Animated tower shield +1: 5 AC; 9,180gp
Ring of protection +2: 2 AC; 8000gp
Amulet of natural armor +2: 2 AC; 8000gp

44,830gp for 30-33 AC. WBL at 13 is 150,000gp. A glabrezu is CR 13 sitting at 31 strength with an AB of +20. A young adult dragon has a CR of 13 with an AB of +27. When you come across an enemy you need more AC for, it's extremely easy to spend 4.5k to boost your AC by +7 from potions changing the 33 into 40 AC. But that's a single CR appropriate monster rather than a group EL appropriate encounter.

[RNightstalker]

that seems kinda silly to me. I want an epic level bartender who had all the furniture in his bar made masterwork quality so its all enchanted as magic weapons for epic bar brawls!

I like that! Let's add some constant spells to keep the furniture to continually repair itself!

[Biggus]

The campaign it's in will be going to at least 40th, and the DM has houseruled so far that epic weapon enhancements are still bonus squared times 2,000 instead of the 20,000 upcharge. I'm actually trying to talk him out of or at least altering a little bit for balance. I want the bonus because at some point that will be cheaper than upgrading something else from a +14 to a +15.

Oh I see! If he's already houseruled it, suggesting he adopt your houseruled "middle way" rather than the ELH rules seems worth a try.

I did consider reducing the epic multiplier to x5 in my games but decided not to as it meant that some epic-bonus items would cost less than 200,000GP. That's clearly not a problem for your DM though.

Fair play for trying to persuade the DM to increase the price of items, not many players would do that even if it would cause imbalance (+30 sword anyone?).

Out of curiosity, have they houseruled that all epic items don't trigger the x10 multiplier?

[RNightstalker]

Oh I see! If he's already houseruled it, suggesting he adopt your houseruled "middle way" rather than the ELH rules seems worth a try.

I did consider reducing the epic multiplier to x5 in my games but decided not to as it meant that some epic-bonus items would cost less than 200,000GP. That's clearly not a problem for your DM though.

Fair play for trying to persuade the DM to increase the price of items, not many players would do that even if it would cause imbalance (+30 sword anyone?).

Out of curiosity, have they houseruled that all epic items don't trigger the x10 multiplier?

I'm a DM too and I'm trying not to break his game, and yes that's a houserule that's already been made.