How to calculate ECL of a True Dragon (Silver) Mount

[Dragonsworn]

Hello everyone

So I have a player who want to be a Dragonrider (I know, who doesn't )

However, as this will be for a DragonLance game, the Dragon Rider PrC from the DragonLance Campaign Setting (DLCS) will be used

Now, the section about the Dragon mount reads (I will not copy the whole thing because I do not remember forum rules on that) as follows:

.....(see Table 2-15 for CR and Effective Character Level of various dragon cohorts). A dragon rider counts a dragon's Effective Character Level as being 3 lower than its actual value. The dragon rider cannot attract a cohort whose Effective Character Level (counting the -3 adjustment) is higher than his total levels (this is an exception to the normal rule, which states that the cohort must be lower than the character's level).

First, the dragon rider must use the Leadership feat to gain an appropriate dragon as a cohort. If the character already has a special mount, familiar, or animal companion, he suffers a -2 penalty on his Leadership score......

The class later provides a table with various Dragon types, age categories and ECLs.
The character will be riding a Silver Dragon for both in and out of game reasons

Now, since he will be playing a Knight of Solamnia, actually attracting the Dragon in question should not be a big deal, unless he seriously messes his roleplay (which is not...entirely impossible). Alignment also is not a problem

What I have trouble figuring out is which age category (and ECL) of a silver dragon he is supposed to get. The table lists a juvenile (as this is the first silver dragon of large size available for mounting to Medium creatures, plus he wants as large a dragon as possible) as ECL 19 - which I cannot fathom how it calculated, as a juvenile silver has 16 HD and the Monster Manual gives LA for as old as young, the rest are marked as "-" (could this be a leftover from 3.0 e?)! Does this mean that he gets a Juvenile Silver Dragon as it appears in the MM at character level 19? And if he chooses to enter the PrC at 20, should I give him an ECL 20 Dragon? And how would I go about that? Would adding a HD (with all corresponding boni) suffice?

Basically, how do you figure out which Dragon a Dragon Rider should get through abilities such as this class feature, and how do you determine the rest of its abilities?

[Paragon]

First off, I'm under the impression that the "levels" the PrC mentions are, in fact, the levels in said class. Dragon Rider 3 means 3 levels.

For the good news now. ECL is RHD + LA in this case and since LA is "-" it means it doesn't have any (and that you can't use the dragon as a PC but that's of no importance in your case)

Basically 16HD would mean you need 13 levels in the PrC which can't really happen out-of-the-box. You'd need Bloodlines (gl with these) and/or Legacy Champion and/or Arcane trickster PrC

[pabelfly]

Hey, I'm actually playing that class right now, and I had to figure out these rules to get the right dragon for my character, that wasn't on the list on p79. I'll do my best to help.

As you pointed out, there's a table on p79 that details the basic dragons you can get and the character level you'd need to be to get them. The formula for the list is calculated at HD + Level Adjustment - 3 = Minimum Character Level. For the silver dragon, 13 HD (Young category) + 5 LA - 3 = Minimum Character Level 15. Therefore, the lowest level you can have a Young Silver Dragon is level 15.

Now, there are some that don't have a level adjustment to work out, as you pointed out. That just means that the level adjustment + HD would take you over 20, so it's not included in the regular rules. If we reverse the formula for a Juvenile silver dragon, 16 HD + unknown LA - 3 = Level 19, which comes to LA +6.

Now we have that covered, let's answer the question. The lowest level you can enter the class is level 11. However, they need to be a minimum of level 15 to have a Silver Dragon. If we're not going to be lenient on age categories for mounts, your best bet is to either pick a Wyvern until they're ready for a Silver Dragon, or go through the dragons in the other sourcebooks, and see if there's a suitable one for them to ride, keeping the rules on dragon mounts in mind (minimum Young age category, one size larger than they are, and similar alignment). This is what I did to get a Purple Dragon for my character's mount with this class.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If a creature's total ECL would be above 20, the core rules count it as unplayable as a PC and list a LA "—" since it would be epic level out of the box.

The table lists a Juvenile Silver Dragon as ECL 19, which includes that -3 adjustment that the Dragon Rider gets. A Juvenile Silver Dragon is 16 HD, which means they've assigned it a +6 LA for it to be at ECL 19 on the table.

The dragon has the abilities printed in the Monster Manual/SRD, plus any your class features grant it.

First off, I'm under the impression that the "levels" the PrC mentions are, in fact, the levels in said class. Dragon Rider 3 means 3 levels.

This wrong, it's total character level as it uses Leadership.

[Prime32]

Of note is that in Dragonlance a dragon can take the Mighty Steed feat (Bestiary of Krynn and Knightly Orders of Ansalon) in order to bear a rider of its own size category, which opens up Young silver dragons as mount options.

Also if you want to get really cheesy you could take Dragon Cohort (Draconomicon) to reduce your dragon's ECL by another -3.

[Dragonsworn]

First off, I'm under the impression that the "levels" the PrC mentions are, in fact, the levels in said class. Dragon Rider 3 means 3 levels.

For the good news now. ECL is RHD + LA in this case and since LA is "-" it means it doesn't have any (and that you can't use the dragon as a PC but that's of no importance in your case)

Basically 16HD would mean you need 13 levels in the PrC which can't really happen out-of-the-box. You'd need Bloodlines (gl with these) and/or Legacy Champion and/or Arcane trickster PrC

That sounds unlikely! Since DLCS came out way before Bloodlines, Legacy Champion or Uncanny* Trickster PrC (I assume you mean), having a PrC list options that would be impossible to achieve would be rather counterintuitive to the design goals of PrCs (or the game in general, for that matter)!

Hey, I'm actually playing that class right now, and I had to figure out these rules to get the right dragon for my character, that wasn't on the list on p79. I'll do my best to help.

Hey, awesome! Is it for a DragonLance game, or did you just find the class useful? And how is your experience with it? Is it useful/worthy/rewarding? And most importantly, is it fun?

As you pointed out, there's a table on p79 that details the basic dragons you can get and the character level you'd need to be to get them. The formula for the list is calculated at HD + Level Adjustment - 3 = Minimum Character Level. For the silver dragon, 13 HD (Young category) + 5 LA - 3 = Minimum Character Level 15. Therefore, the lowest level you can have a Young Silver Dragon is level 15.

Now, there are some that don't have a level adjustment to work out, as you pointed out. That just means that the level adjustment + HD would take you over 20, so it's not included in the regular rules. If we reverse the formula for a Juvenile silver dragon, 16 HD + unknown LA - 3 = Level 19, which comes to LA +6.

You know, it didn't even occur to me that they would be omitting epic progressions! That makes perfect sense, thank you!!!

And I had a feeling the LA for a juvenile Silver would be +6, which a quick googling confirmed here, but it's nice to see others come to the same conclusion!

Now we have that covered, let's answer the question. The lowest level you can enter the class is level 11. However, they need to be a minimum of level 15 to have a Silver Dragon. If we're not going to be lenient on age categories for mounts, your best bet is to either pick a Wyvern until they're ready for a Silver Dragon, or go through the dragons in the other sourcebooks, and see if there's a suitable one for them to ride, keeping the rules on dragon mounts in mind (minimum Young age category, one size larger than they are, and similar alignment). This is what I did to get a Purple Dragon for my character's mount with this class.

The player is planning to enter the class at the level that the desired mount will be available, earlier (and possibly later) levels will be devoted to other PrCs (as I said, Knight of Solamnia), so that is not an issue. Thanks though!

If a creature's total ECL would be above 20, the core rules count it as unplayable as a PC and list a LA "—" since it would be epic level out of the box.

The table lists a Juvenile Silver Dragon as ECL 19, which includes that -3 adjustment that the Dragon Rider gets. A Juvenile Silver Dragon is 16 HD, which means they've assigned it a +6 LA for it to be at ECL 19 on the table.

The dragon has the abilities printed in the Monster Manual/SRD, plus any your class features grant it.




This wrong, it's total character level as it uses Leadership.

Again, thanks, you all helped me figure it out






So, on that venue, since the character can attract a Dragon of ECL as high as his own, if he enters Dragon Rider at 20 level, should he get an ECL 20 Silver Dragon? And how do I do that? Is it a Juvenile with 1 extra HD? Something else? How do you level up Dragons?

Of note is that in Dragonlance a dragon can take the Mighty Steed feat (Bestiary of Krynn and Knightly Orders of Ansalon) in order to bear a rider of its own size category, which opens up Young silver dragons as mount options.

I am aware of that trick, but the player wants as big a Dragon as possible, so that feat is of little help!

Also if you want to get really cheesy you could take Dragon Cohort (Draconomicon) to reduce your dragon's ECL by another -3.

Wait, this is interesting!

So the link I provided earlier lists a Young Adult Silver Dragon as an ECL of somewhere between 27 and 32! However, since the LA given for silvers in the MM (up to young) is +4, +4, +5 and then the juvenile gets a +6, if we continue that advancement (which is not certain to be true, as we cannot know how the developers did it, but anyway) then a Young Adult would have an LA of +7, which on top of its 19 HD would give it a total ECL of 26! If the class feature of the Dragon rider and this feat can be combined for a total reduction of -6, then entering the PrC at lvl 20 would result in gaining a Young Adult Silver Dragon as a mount. Is this correct?

I need to figure out how you level up Dragons!!!!!

[pabelfly]

Hey, awesome! Is it for a DragonLance game, or did you just find the class useful? And how is your experience with it? Is it useful/worthy/rewarding? And most importantly, is it fun?

So, context: my current playable build is a mounted archer on a dragon. No specific setting. I obviously needed a way to get a dragon, and Dragon Rider let me recruit one with reduced cost (the Young Silver Dragon is an ECL 18 character that you can recruit at level 15, for example). You also get to add some nice bonuses like extra HP and armor to the creature, bonus feats and so forth.

How good Dragon Rider is depends on what you're giving up to get into the class and get your dragon. A casting class loses spellcasting, for example, is perhaps too steep a cost to pay. I might find another way to get a Dragon then, such as the previously-mentioned Dragon Cohort, accepting the downside of having a weaker Dragon in exchange for progressing spellcasting. However, my build is Champion of the Wild Ranger 10/Dragon Rider X, and giving up Ranger levels isn't nearly as big a deal, and the upside is a more powerful dragon than what I'd get elsewhere.

The build overall, taking into account that it's a two-for-one, is solid overall, and I'm pretty happy with it. My archer is fine without the dragon, since I've got the feats I need to function well. The dragon is fine without the archer, especially with the various bonuses. And sitting on a dragon, directing it to breathe fire onto my enemies is a blast. Very fun build concept.

[Remuko]

That sounds unlikely! Since DLCS came out way before Bloodlines, Legacy Champion or Uncanny* Trickster PrC (I assume you mean), having a PrC list options that would be impossible to achieve would be rather counterintuitive to the design goals of PrCs (or the game in general, for that matter)!



Hey, awesome! Is it for a DragonLance game, or did you just find the class useful? And how is your experience with it? Is it useful/worthy/rewarding? And most importantly, is it fun?



You know, it didn't even occur to me that they would be omitting epic progressions! That makes perfect sense, thank you!!!

And I had a feeling the LA for a juvenile Silver would be +6, which a quick googling confirmed here, but it's nice to see others come to the same conclusion!



The player is planning to enter the class at the level that the desired mount will be available, earlier (and possibly later) levels will be devoted to other PrCs (as I said, Knight of Solamnia), so that is not an issue. Thanks though!



Again, thanks, you all helped me figure it out






So, on that venue, since the character can attract a Dragon of ECL as high as his own, if he enters Dragon Rider at 20 level, should he get an ECL 20 Silver Dragon? And how do I do that? Is it a Juvenile with 1 extra HD? Something else? How do you level up Dragons?



I am aware of that trick, but the player wants as big a Dragon as possible, so that feat is of little help!



Wait, this is interesting!

So the link I provided earlier lists a Young Adult Silver Dragon as an ECL of somewhere between 27 and 32! However, since the LA given for silvers in the MM (up to young) is +4, +4, +5 and then the juvenile gets a +6, if we continue that advancement (which is not certain to be true, as we cannot know how the developers did it, but anyway) then a Young Adult would have an LA of +7, which on top of its 19 HD would give it a total ECL of 26! If the class feature of the Dragon rider and this feat can be combined for a total reduction of -6, then entering the PrC at lvl 20 would result in gaining a Young Adult Silver Dragon as a mount. Is this correct?

I need to figure out how you level up Dragons!!!!!

rules for leveling up dragons are in the draconomicon. basically they get an age category every 3 HD for true dragons so they cant gain that third RHD until theyre the right age to grow. so they just level as normal. gain a Dragon HD, get D12 HP, +1 attack bonus, possibly +1 to all 3 saves (dragon HD have good saves in fort ref and will) depending on level, and 6+int mod skill points. possibly a feat or ability score increase depending on level as well.

[Crake]

rules for leveling up dragons are in the draconomicon. basically they get an age category every 3 HD for true dragons so they cant gain that third RHD until theyre the right age to grow. so they just level as normal. gain a Dragon HD, get D12 HP, +1 attack bonus, possibly +1 to all 3 saves (dragon HD have good saves in fort ref and will) depending on level, and 6+int mod skill points. possibly a feat or ability score increase depending on level as well.

Iirc, they also need to hit age levels between their age categories to gain those in-between HD

[Dragonsworn]

So, context: my current playable build is a mounted archer on a dragon. No specific setting. I obviously needed a way to get a dragon, and Dragon Rider let me recruit one with reduced cost (the Young Silver Dragon is an ECL 18 character that you can recruit at level 15, for example). You also get to add some nice bonuses like extra HP and armor to the creature, bonus feats and so forth.

How good Dragon Rider is depends on what you're giving up to get into the class and get your dragon. A casting class loses spellcasting, for example, is perhaps too steep a cost to pay. I might find another way to get a Dragon then, such as the previously-mentioned Dragon Cohort, accepting the downside of having a weaker Dragon in exchange for progressing spellcasting. However, my build is Champion of the Wild Ranger 10/Dragon Rider X, and giving up Ranger levels isn't nearly as big a deal, and the upside is a more powerful dragon than what I'd get elsewhere.

The build overall, taking into account that it's a two-for-one, is solid overall, and I'm pretty happy with it. My archer is fine without the dragon, since I've got the feats I need to function well. The dragon is fine without the archer, especially with the various bonuses. And sitting on a dragon, directing it to breathe fire onto my enemies is a blast. Very fun build concept.

Interesting. Does it feel like a Ranger with a Dragon tacked on, or do the two blend well together?

Also, I see you finished the PrC. My player plans to take only one level to get the dragon! Do you think the extra boni the dragon gets from the class are very important, or can they do without them?

rules for leveling up dragons are in the draconomicon.

Thanks for that, I checked the Dragonomicon. I assume you mean the entry "Advanced Dragons" on page 100, but that refers to advancing Great Wyrms! Is there another passage I missed?

Edit: I have just found what you were talking about: the "Dragons as Player Characters" at page 141. I still have some question, mainly the ones that follow

basically they get an age category every 3 HD for true dragons so they cant gain that third RHD until theyre the right age to grow. so they just level as normal. gain a Dragon HD, get D12 HP, +1 attack bonus, possibly +1 to all 3 saves (dragon HD have good saves in fort ref and will) depending on level, and 6+int mod skill points. possibly a feat or ability score increase depending on level as well.

I had figured that is how it would probably go, but here is my problem: continuing the previous example, a Juvenile Silver going to Young Adult gains +4 Strength and +2 Constitution. Is that just by aging, which means that in between those age categories they gain no ablility score increases barring the +1 every 4 HD? Or should those benefits be spread out in between the advancement from 16 to 19 HD? And, if so, how? Same goes for the breath weapon increase

Iirc, they also need to hit age levels between their age categories to gain those in-between HD

The character will enter the PrC and acquire the draconic mount as lately as possible (probably level 19 or 20), so this will probably not be an issue



Also, how would you guys handle a Dragon mount as far as spell and feat selection goes? Would you allow the player to fully customize the Dragon, or do you find this too powerful?




And, finally, anyone willing to weigh in on whether a 20 level character with one level in this PrC and the Dragon Cohort feat could get a Young Adult Silver Dragon as a mount (main concern here would be the LA of the Dragon, as it can be AT MOST a +7, but I have no idea where to begin looking for hints for that!)

[pabelfly]

Interesting. Does it feel like a Ranger with a Dragon tacked on, or do the two blend well together?

Also, I see you finished the PrC. My player plans to take only one level to get the dragon! Do you think the extra boni the dragon gets from the class are very important, or can they do without them?

My build is currently Ranger 10/Dragon Rider 5. I put X as I intend to keep levelling it.

As for flavour, since I created it as a level 13 character, I can't really comment on how "Ranger" it felt before the class. I do try to create my characters with the design intent to be playable at as low a level as possible, so I think it would have been functional at a low level.

Lastly, let's compare two hypothetical level 20 characters: one who has one level of Dragon Rider, and the other which has 10 levels. They'll both have a Silver Juvenile Dragon as a mount.

• 6 extra hit dice takes the Juvenile Dragon from 16HD to 22HD, or 142HP to 172HP. That's over 20% more HP.
• 6 extra hit dice also gives you +6 BAB and +2 to all your saves.
• 6 extra natural armor means 30% regular attacks and attacks that target you while you're flatfooted that would have hit you now miss.
• You miss out on three feats, as well as various class features that help dragon riding

Those are pretty significant bonuses, IMO. Now, if this character has other things they'd like to be doing (such as progressing Spellcasting) it may be worthwhile to take that other class instead.

Also, how would you guys handle a Dragon mount as far as spell and feat selection goes? Would you allow the player to fully customize the Dragon, or do you find this too powerful?

I selected feats for my build and things haven't gone too outlandish. I'd say it's fine.

And, finally, anyone willing to weigh in on whether a 20 level character with one level in this PrC and the Dragon Cohort feat could get a Young Adult Silver Dragon as a mount (main concern here would be the LA of the Dragon, as it can be AT MOST a +7, but I have no idea where to begin looking for hints for that!)

1) I don't think Dragon Cohort and Leadership stack. I can see why people think otherwise though. I'll debate the point if people really want, but for the purposes of answering this post it's not relevant.
2) Disregarding my opinion on point 1), I'd just give them the Juvenile one to start with, and if you think it underpowered, you can easily justify ageing it up to Young Adult.

[Remuko]

Thanks for that, I checked the Dragonomicon. I assume you mean the entry "Advanced Dragons" on page 100, but that refers to advancing Great Wyrms! Is there another passage I missed?

Edit: I have just found what you were talking about: the "Dragons as Player Characters" at page 141. I still have some question, mainly the ones that follow



I had figured that is how it would probably go, but here is my problem: continuing the previous example, a Juvenile Silver going to Young Adult gains +4 Strength and +2 Constitution. Is that just by aging, which means that in between those age categories they gain no ablility score increases barring the +1 every 4 HD? Or should those benefits be spread out in between the advancement from 16 to 19 HD? And, if so, how? Same goes for the breath weapon increase

Its based on age category. Those ability score increases some only when they change age category. So a Juvenile who is 1HD away from becoming Young Adult doesnt get the bonus until becoming Young Adult. Its not some slow partial gains over time. They just suddenly bump up an age category and often size as well and get all the new stuff for that age category, which includes the stronger breath weapon, tho a breath weapons save DC is 10+ 1/2 total HD + Con mod, so extra HD increase this as normal. Yes they get +1 as normal every 4 HD and then on age increase they get the +4 str and +2 con from your example.

[Dragonsworn]

My build is currently Ranger 10/Dragon Rider 5. I put X as I intend to keep levelling it.

As for flavour, since I created it as a level 13 character, I can't really comment on how "Ranger" it felt before the class. I do try to create my characters with the design intent to be playable at as low a level as possible, so I think it would have been functional at a low level.

Lastly, let's compare two hypothetical level 20 characters: one who has one level of Dragon Rider, and the other which has 10 levels. They'll both have a Silver Juvenile Dragon as a mount.

• 6 extra hit dice takes the Juvenile Dragon from 16HD to 22HD, or 142HP to 172HP. That's over 20% more HP.
• 6 extra hit dice also gives you +6 BAB and +2 to all your saves.
• 6 extra natural armor means 30% regular attacks and attacks that target you while you're flatfooted that would have hit you now miss.
• You miss out on three feats, as well as various class features that help dragon riding

Those are pretty significant bonuses, IMO. Now, if this character has other things they'd like to be doing (such as progressing Spellcasting) it may be worthwhile to take that other class instead.

Well, the end goal of his build are 9th level spells, so more of Dragonrider will probably be contrary to his character idea

I selected feats for my build and things haven't gone too outlandish. I'd say it's fine.

Good to know, thanks

1) I don't think Dragon Cohort and Leadership stack. I can see why people think otherwise though. I'll debate the point if people really want, but for the purposes of answering this post it's not relevant.
2) Disregarding my opinion on point 1), I'd just give them the Juvenile one to start with, and if you think it underpowered, you can easily justify ageing it up to Young Adult.

1) Out of curiosity, why do you think that is?
2) He will only take 1 level of Dragon Rider, possibly his 20th just to get the dragon mount. I think justifying in game the dragon aging a whole age category will be difficult!

Its based on age category. Those ability score increases some only when they change age category. So a Juvenile who is 1HD away from becoming Young Adult doesnt get the bonus until becoming Young Adult. Its not some slow partial gains over time. They just suddenly bump up an age category and often size as well and get all the new stuff for that age category, which includes the stronger breath weapon, tho a breath weapons save DC is 10+ 1/2 total HD + Con mod, so extra HD increase this as normal. Yes they get +1 as normal every 4 HD and then on age increase they get the +4 str and +2 con from your example.

I was afraid it was going to be so....

[pabelfly]

1) Out of curiosity, why do you think that is? (that Dragon Cohort and Dragon Rider don't stack)

Dragon Cohort directs you specifically to p139 of Draconomicon to look at a list of dragons to recruit. The dragons are listed with their normal ECL, and Dragon Cohort says you can get one three ECL below what's indicated of p139 of the Draconomicon table.

Dragon Rider counts a dragon's level as being 3 ECL below it's actual value, not it's current value. Now, the reason I say they don't stack is because they both say they're reducing the ECL from the original value.

Reminder that there's also the line, "the dragon rider cannot attract a cohort whose Effective Character Level (counting the -3 adjustment) is higher than his character level," so that would seem to rule out shenanigans here too.

[Dragonsworn]

Dragon Cohort directs you specifically to p139 of Draconomicon to look at a list of dragons to recruit. The dragons are listed with their normal ECL, and Dragon Cohort says you can get one three ECL below what's indicated of p139 of the Draconomicon table.

Dragon Rider counts a dragon's level as being 3 ECL below it's actual value, not it's current value. Now, the reason I say they don't stack is because they both say they're reducing the ECL from the original value.

Reminder that there's also the line, "the dragon rider cannot attract a cohort whose Effective Character Level (counting the -3 adjustment) is higher than his character level," so that would seem to rule out shenanigans here too.

Well, I would disagree with that! The entirety of D&D 3.5 splatbooks have been published under the premise that the person who had the book would only have access to the three core books (Player's Hanbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual) and the book in question, so cross referencing was never a big thing in development! Add to that the weird place DragonLance occupies with regards to legality and relationship with the rest of 1st party D&D, I think none of the developers put much thought into that

What I mean is, they both reference original ECL value because they had to basically ignore the existence of one another, so as far as they were concerned each of them was respectively they only way to reduce a Dragon Cohort's ECL!

In addition, referencing original ECL seems highly unlikely to be a restrictive clause rather than the way they desided to phrase it, though I fully admit that is just my way of reading it and I can certainly see other people following your reading!

Plus, DLCS came out so far before Dragonomicon, there were no other ways to reduse ECL, so they could not have taken it into account!

Regarding your last point, if we accept that the class feature and the feat stack, there would be no shenanigans in play (at least if we can somehow assure or safely infer a Young Adult Silver Dragon's LA to be no higher than +7)

[pabelfly]

Well, I would disagree with that! The entirety of D&D 3.5 splatbooks have been published under the premise that the person who had the book would only have access to the three core books (Player's Hanbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual) and the book in question, so cross referencing was never a big thing in development! Add to that the weird place DragonLance occupies with regards to legality and relationship with the rest of 1st party D&D, I think none of the developers put much thought into that

What I mean is, they both reference original ECL value because they had to basically ignore the existence of one another, so as far as they were concerned each of them was respectively they only way to reduce a Dragon Cohort's ECL!

In addition, referencing original ECL seems highly unlikely to be a restrictive clause rather than the way they desided to phrase it, though I fully admit that is just my way of reading it and I can certainly see other people following your reading!

Plus, DLCS came out so far before Dragonomicon, there were no other ways to reduse ECL, so they could not have taken it into account!

Regarding your last point, if we accept that the class feature and the feat stack, there would be no shenanigans in play (at least if we can somehow assure or safely infer a Young Adult Silver Dragon's LA to be no higher than +7)

If you think stacking the two is fine for your table, I'm happy to take your word for it. You're the DM, it's your game, you know your players, the table and their characters best. But that is different to following the rules that were written. As you yourself said, they're both targeting the original ECL, so they're both two different methods of doing the same thing.

But, again, your game, you're the DM. You're allowed to reinterpret the rules however you want, but you are reinterpreting them.

[Remuko]

If you think stacking the two is fine for your table, I'm happy to take your word for it. You're the DM, it's your game, you know your players, the table and their characters best. But that is different to following the rules that were written. As you yourself said, they're both targeting the original ECL, so they're both two different methods of doing the same thing.

But, again, your game, you're the DM. You're allowed to reinterpret the rules however you want, but you are reinterpreting them.

You appear to be doing the same though. Nothing suggests two different things targetting the original ECL can't stack and additively reduce the total ECL. theyre not the same source or anything. I think them stacking is the most plain, RAW, and common sense reading. Now, of course, as you said DMs at their own tables can change things all they want but as is there's no reason they shouldn't stack.

[Dragonsworn]

If you think stacking the two is fine for your table, I'm happy to take your word for it. You're the DM, it's your game, you know your players, the table and their characters best. But that is different to following the rules that were written. As you yourself said, they're both targeting the original ECL, so they're both two different methods of doing the same thing.

But, again, your game, you're the DM. You're allowed to reinterpret the rules however you want, but you are reinterpreting them.

I didn't consider it reinterpreting them, as I view the two as non mutually exclusive. Yes, they target original value, but that is no reason for them not to stack the same way as putting on armour and shield stack to your previous (original) AC score! If they provided some short of modifier type to this reduction then sure, but as it strands they seem perfectly stackable

Though I can see where you are coming from, and I can see many people ruling the same, especially if the potential power of a DRAGON seems rather intimidating!!!

You appear to be doing the same though. Nothing suggests two different things targetting the original ECL can't stack and additively reduce the total ECL. theyre not the same source or anything. I think them stacking is the most plain, RAW, and common sense reading. Now, of course, as you said DMs at their own tables can change things all they want but as is there's no reason they shouldn't stack.

True, apart from modifier type, the source clause is also satisfied here!

[Dragonsworn]

So, any chance someone might be able to infer (or take an educated guess) on what a Young Adult Silver Dragon's LA should be?

[Remuko]

So, any chance someone might be able to infer (or take an educated guess) on what a Young Adult Silver Dragon's LA should be?

There's a series LA reassignment threads on here and an archive for previously rated monsters. Honestly most monsters are not nearly worth the LA the game gives them and plenty of the ones without a given one aren't worth any.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=469 Here is the link to the young adult silver dragon from said reassignment. Obviously you'd need to run it by your DM.

[Dragonsworn]

There's a series LA reassignment threads on here and an archive for previously rated monsters. Honestly most monsters are not nearly worth the LA the game gives them and plenty of the ones without a given one aren't worth any.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=469 Here is the link to the young adult silver dragon from said reassignment. Obviously you'd need to run it by your DM.

Well, this just ends up saying that they are not really worth any LA! Plus, it finishes with "don't play one", meaning it is probably intended for PC Dragons, not PC Dragon mounts!!

Appreciate the link though. Any other possibilities?

[Remuko]

Well, this just ends up saying that they are not really worth any LA! Plus, it finishes with "don't play one", meaning it is probably intended for PC Dragons, not PC Dragon mounts!!

Appreciate the link though. Any other possibilities?

yes thats my point. theyre too weak for LA which is intended to rate how strong something is if used as a Player Character, its the same thing used by the class, its all part of ECL. the point is it wouldnt be too strong to be used as that thread mentions if your DM would allow it. 90% of all LA in 3.5 are wrong (too high or in rare cases too low, or non-existent).