What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

[tokek]

Ah, but the really real question is do you need papers to go with your janitor disguise and is a forgery and a disguise check enough, or do you want to spend a week fabricating and establishing your backstory as Five-foot Dave the "Giant" and really selling the bit as a mute, idiot, short-stack, weakling that's only good for cleaning the latrines? Further, and let's face it more importantly, what ultra specific spell that I'll obviously always have prepared should I create to make sure I don't need to make any checks doing it instead of playing a Rogue? Should we call it Oxymoron or just Win D&D

As I said earlier - once we go down the route of railroading exactly what is required the railroad is the problem not any character class.

Some of this discussion has set the bar so high its clearly impossible for any class at all to achieve. To me that is the epitome of meaningless discussion but I guess its amusing to the people involved.

[LudicSavant]

Ah, but the really real question is do you need papers to go with your janitor disguise and is a forgery and a disguise check enough, or do you want to spend a week fabricating and establishing your backstory as Five-foot Dave the "Giant" and really selling the bit as a mute, idiot, short-stack, weakling that's only good for cleaning the latrines?

LOL

Based on this post, there seems to be a conflict on what "it" is referring to. You seem to be asking me to defend the Assassin as a very strong subclass. I've never been doing that; I've been defending two of it's abilities in a vacuum.

Well I'm not sure why you're defending it to me, because my position is likewise that the Assassin is not a very strong subclass, and that neither Infiltration Expertise nor Impostor nor Assassinate is enough to save it.

I have relatively little interest in talking about it in a vacuum, because I cannot take these features individually. Shrug.

[Kane0]

Standardized subclass levels is at the top of my 6e wishlist in flaming letters.

At this point i'm locked in on "why wait, i'll do it myself".

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I know it's not at all germane to the issue, but I do find it slightly vexing comparing assassin against subclasses published after WotC threw their hands up in the air and decided to embrace power creep with clear eyes and open hearts. Most 2014 subclass options are bad compared to 2020 or later subclasses.

[KorvinStarmast]

And since this is a level 9 party, we're at a point where the opposition that might actually worry a competent party (especially if it's for more than a week) is stuff like illithids and archmages and angels and such. And the competition for your job is something like an Eloquence Bard.

Or a whispers bard.
As to the Rogue/Assassin feature at level 9 ... perhaps add
"You can cast the spell nondetection once per long rest without using spell components" as a part of that level 9 feature.
Chances to infiltrate suddenly expand and the spell caster in the party isn't taxed.

Non detection lasts for 8 hours. If you wanted to scale it down as being "too powerful" then have it last one hour, like Freedom of Movement and some other buffs.
Spell durations tend to be instantaneous, 1 minute, 10 minutes, 1 hour, 8 hours, 24 hours, or until dispelled.

As compared to a different martial benefit: Level 10 barbarian, Totem, gets Commune with Nature as a ritual, and that's a 5th level spell.

I know it's not at all germane to the issue, but I do find it slightly vexing comparing assassin against subclasses published after WotC threw their hands up in the air and decided to embrace power creep with clear eyes and open hearts. Most 2014 subclass options are bad compared to 2020 or later subclasses.

The power Creep in Tasha's was marked. There was a slight power creep in Xanathar's, which in some cases they could have mitigated by (for example) back filling "always known ranger spells" for the Hunter and Beast master...but they were too lazy to do that.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

The power Creep in Tasha's was marked. There was a slight power creep in Xanathar's, which in some cases they could have mitigated by (for example) back filling "always known ranger spells" for the Hunter and Beast master...but they were too lazy to do that.

And some of the XGtE power creep was deliberate -- the ranger subclasses were an attempt to fix the bad chassis. In Tasha's, reason went out the window. There are about six subclasses in there that should never have been printed; compare them to earlier UAs that were rejected for powercreep. But that's a whole different conversation, and one that's unfortunately about five years too late.

[tokek]

And some of the XGtE power creep was deliberate -- the ranger subclasses were an attempt to fix the bad chassis. In Tasha's, reason went out the window. There are about six subclasses in there that should never have been printed; compare them to earlier UAs that were rejected for powercreep. But that's a whole different conversation, and one that's unfortunately about five years too late.

And yet in the context of this discussion I still think Arcane Trickster is the strongest Rogue subclass.

Soulknife is very good but on balance I think Arcane Trickster edges it.

Phantom is very thematic but pretty weak below 9th level when it feels like it actually gets a subclass

[Dr.Samurai]

So long as we don't set the bar so insanely high that we are basically setting up a situation where the DM is declaring infiltration impossible. Which I think part of this conversation has been doing

Indeed. "Well, Infiltration Expertise doesn't let you walk through walls so... you know, not good for infiltration."

Spoiler: Standard Infiltration Scenario

Show

Wizard: Okay, I have my Mind Blank running, Polymorph, and all my other illusions spells. I approach the gate.
DM: Ok, the stock human character takes one look at you and is immediately convinced that you are who you say you are.
Wizard: Really? I don't have to show them my papers or anything?
DM: No, magic is really strong and this is how I adjudicate it.
Wizard: Ok, I walk right through.
DM: Ok, you're in scot-free. What do you do Assassin?
Assassin: Ok, I also approach, and remember I'm using Infiltration Expertise so I have the perfect disguise, unless something super obvious happens.
DM: Yeah, I know how the feature works. Okay so as you approach, a mind flayer can be seen coming from the back of the gate house and joining the human at the gate. It's tentacles are writhing and it says, well wait do you understand Quallith?
Assassin: ... ... ... no.
DM: Ok that's fine. Basically you can kind of tell that the mind flayer's gestures with its hands and tentacles are amelioratory. And the human rolls his eyes and says "Whatever Gary, you always have an excuse. Just try and get here on time, all the rest of us do it" and then the human clocks out on a punch time clock behind him and leaves.
Assassin: So I'm approaching during some sort of shift change? And the relief is an illithid?
DM: Seems like. So you approach and at first it seems like the mind flayer is fooled by your perfect disguise and flawless papers, but then it has a start, like something has startled it. You can't know for sure, but you're worried it is probing your mind. Suddenly you hear its voice in your mind: Why are your thoughts about infiltrating this place?
Assassin: Um...
DM: The voice in your head continues: Are you a giant? Do you know up to 10 languages?
Assassin: Excuse me?
DM: The illithid snaps its fingers and an angel and a demon appear from either side of you, You're going to have to come with us, they say in a melodic tone. Roll a wisdom save vs a Charm effect. A lich can be heard laughing in the distance.
Assassin: Wait, what is happening right now?
Wizard: *smirks, and looks back from inside the castle* You should have played a spellcaster bro.

Or...

DM: You approach the illithid that has been posted as a guard to the mind flayer colony you are trying to infiltrate.
Bard: Ok, I step up, Fee Fi Fo Fum, we'd like to enter the colony please.
Assassin: Why are you polymorphed as a giant?
Bard: It's necessary to get in.
DM: Okay so the mind flayer looks up at you, craning its neck to get a full vision of you because you're so big. An eyebrow goes up, I cannot read your thoughts. Why are you shielding your mind from me? Seems suspicious.
Bard: I roll Deception with Expertise. Well, I got an 18, stupid low rolls.
DM: That's enough, the Mind Flayer has passive insight of 16 and there's nothing that will ever change that ever so you will always curbstomp with your Deception.
Bard: Oh great! Ok so yeah I'm like "I have to shield my mind from the energies of the faerzress".
DM: Oh good one. Ok, the mind flayer is like "Sounds legit. You are free to--" before he finishes his sentence, a succubus pops up from behind the counter, "Hey I found that piece of brain you said went missing. Hey, why is this bard polymorphed into a giant?" The Mind Flayer gives you a suspicious look, "Seems like you didn't account for Truesight, impostor!" He turns to the succubus and says "This creature is also shielding its mind from my mental probing."
Bard: Oh man, a succubus too! Ok, I roll Deception again. Darn, a 17, what is up with these dice!
DM: That's ok, the succubus only has a passive insight of 15 and that will never change no matter what. So as long as you roll a 3 or higher you can tell these two anything you want and they'll believe it.
Bard: That's what I like to hear. Okay, I'm like "I was cursed by a witch" or something I don't know lol I say whatever.
DM: That works. They're both like "Ok, makes sense." and let you through. Assassin?
Assassin: Ok, I don't know what all that was about. But I approach, and I am wearing my perfect disguise as an infamous duergar noble and slaver from the Middledark, complete with letters signed by drow nobles and duergar kings, seeking council with the Ulitharid.
DM: Yeah sure. But... remind me of your name again.
Assassin: The identity is Gralrik Starkhorn III.
DM: From the Middeldark, and a noble and slaver. And you said with affiliations to what groups?
Assassin: The Grim Psions, the Keepers of the Flame, and the Gray Hammers.
DM: That's what I thought. Ok, so the mind flayer and succubus are looking over your papers and are about to let you in, when to everyone's complete and total shock, a duergar that looks just like your disguise comes walking up and says "I am Gralrik Starkhorn III, infamous noble and slaver of the Middledark, and member of the Grim Psions, Keepers of the Flame, and the Gray Hammers. Unfortunately, you failed to realize you had taken the exact identity of someone else, and your infiltration fails.
Assassin: Well, you're right. I am in complete and total shock. Well, whatever, I'll roll Deception.
DM: No, that's not how the feature works. You fail. You can't take on someone else's identity. That's a condition for auto-failure.
Assassin: So what happens now?
DM: Roll Initiative. Bard, sit this one out as you already made it inside.
Bard: You got it champ!

I know it's not at all germane to the issue, but I do find it slightly vexing comparing assassin against subclasses published after WotC threw their hands up in the air and decided to embrace power creep with clear eyes and open hearts. Most 2014 subclass options are bad compared to 2020 or later subclasses.

Agreed as well. I don't particularly like these types of comparisons because it doesn't actually speak to how the class plays out in play.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

And yet in the context of this discussion I still think Arcane Trickster is the strongest Rogue subclass.

Soulknife is very good but on balance I think Arcane Trickster edges it.

Phantom is very thematic but pretty weak below 9th level when it feels like it actually gets a subclass

Might be true, though 2014 PHB Arcane Trickster is pretty bad in combat. The SCAG cantrips, later reprinted, make a big difference. That was always one of the problems with power creep and why casters were great. Every printed class spell is retroactively available to casters, but subclass features aren't.

[Witty Username]

Might be true, though 2014 PHB Arcane Trickster is pretty bad in combat. The SCAG cantrips, later reprinted, make a big difference. That was always one of the problems with power creep and why casters were great. Every printed class spell is retroactively available to casters, but subclass features aren't.

I would say their is a range between bad and not better than everyone else that AT prior to scag falls into.

Rogue damage is pretty much only bad in comparison to SS and GWM nonsense, which is commonly discussed as the best damage option available.

[Blatant Beast]

I'm talking about getting in. The part people keep glossing over is the disguises and forgeries which are getting you in in the first place. You guys have now resorted to calling it a "fake ID" as if it's a trivial thing, but it's actually the beginning of this entire process.

This seems to be the whole dispute, in a nutshell. Everyone agrees it is the beginning of the process. The trouble arises in the valuation placed on that.

Some are saying: "Hey, Infiltration Expertise gets you through the door, it is good"
and others are saying: "Hey, Infiltration Expertise gets you through the door, but is that good enough?"

If having a disguise is all that is needed for entry, then Infiltration Expertise, a Disguise Kit, or a Seeming spell all help enable success, to varying degrees. The Seeming spell is essentially a level equivalent effect to an Assassin's Infiltration Expertise, both are available at 9th level.

To use a pop culture reference, the Endor Command Team, in Return of the Jedi, is the ideal result for Infiltration Expertise: The DM gives the PC a Shuttle, an older Passcode, Uniforms, and it does indeed get them through the front door, except a psionic foe is given a reason to see through the ruse.

Ironically, the Endor Command Team, could have flown in on the Millennium Falcon, announced to the Imperials that they had Luke Skywalker on board, and they were going to self detonate and blow up Luke and the Falcon, unless allowed access to the Planet, and Vader would have let them on through.

Design-wise, many Infiltration Scenarios, will be designed to have multiple potential avenues for entry.

Oddfather and others have made the point that some games do not allow downtime, which is another viewpoint in which to evaluate the ability.

In regards to Powercreep: the problem with XGE is the power-creep was uneven. This goes back to what Psyren made reference to: unfortunately the Rogue has a large percentage of 'stinkers' in terms of subclasses. The Inquisitive is arguably the best subclass out of the bunch in XGE.....and it is not great. Some might argue the Scout is the best subclass option out of XGE, and again the option is just not great.

The Arcane Trickster is in a good shape, overall, due to the additional spells added to the Wizard spell list over time.

[Psyren]

As compared to a different martial benefit: Level 10 barbarian, Totem, gets Commune with Nature as a ritual, and that's a 5th level spell.
The power Creep in Tasha's was marked. There was a slight power creep in Xanathar's, which in some cases they could have mitigated by (for example) back filling "always known ranger spells" for the Hunter and Beast master...but they were too lazy to do that.

I know it's not at all germane to the issue, but I do find it slightly vexing comparing assassin against subclasses published after WotC threw their hands up in the air and decided to embrace power creep with clear eyes and open hearts. Most 2014 subclass options are bad compared to 2020 or later subclasses.

Okay, I keep seeing this and it's bugging me. Say it with me: normalizing subclass design to be in line with your stronger entries isn't power creep. It's normalizing.

Soulknife/Phantom aren't power creep, because Arcane Trickster already existed.
Swarmkeeper/Fey Wanderer aren't power creep, because Gloomstalker already existed.
Rune Knight/Psi Warrior aren't power creeep, because Battle Master/Eldritch Knight already existed.
Even the Sorcerer subclasses aren't power creep, because the base Sorcerer was so constrained relative to every other caster.

There are examples of power creep in Tasha's - Cleric is by far the most egregious of that set. But Rogue and Ranger ain't it.

And yet in the context of this discussion I still think Arcane Trickster is the strongest Rogue subclass.

Soulknife is very good but on balance I think Arcane Trickster edges it.

Phantom is very thematic but pretty weak below 9th level when it feels like it actually gets a subclass

Exactly right, AT is stronger. For one thing, it can very reliably get that reaction SA thanks to Mirror Image + Sentinel. It also has more toys it can use outside of combat. And it has unique tricks all its own like being able to disarm traps and pick pockets from a distance.

[Witty Username]

Some might argue the Scout is the best subclass option out of XGE, and again the option is just not great.

How the mighty have fallen, back when that book came out I remember people saying scout was a full replacement for ranger.

[Dr.Samurai]

This seems to be the whole dispute, in a nutshell. Everyone agrees it is the beginning of the process. The trouble arises in the valuation placed on that.

I'm not quite certain. It is definitely a major sticking point to the dispute, but I don't know it's the entire dispute. Because once you're in, I am still putting forth that Infiltration Expertise makes you belong there, and so you will have a far easier time speaking with the people you're trying to infiltrate and moving around.

It's really the valuation on Disguise/Deception that is on the table in my estimation. Because let's say that your disguise/forgery gets you through the door as a non-assassin. Ok so you're in. Now how far does that get you for the rest of the "mission"? You duped the people standing guard, are you going to dupe everyone else every time? The dice are swingy, which everyone is also glossing over. In my opinion, Infiltration Expertise gets you much further than the door, unless of course you start assuming Read Thoughts and needing to Polymorph into a demon and whatever other obstacles we may uncover in this discussion. At which point these are considerations for everyone.

Some are saying: "Hey, Infiltration Expertise gets you through the door, it is good"
and others are saying: "Hey, Infiltration Expertise gets you through the door, but is that good enough?"

I'm saying it does more than simply get you through the door, but I'm focusing on the door because others are assuming they're just going to waltz in. To my mind, Infiltration Expertise can forego a number of rolls even after getting in through the front. We can completely ignore the door and say a non-assassin doesn't even go for a disguise and forgery and just uses invisibility, climbing, etc to sneak in. And that's fine, it's a different way to do it. But I think doing it with Infiltration Expertise is a fun and powerful way to do it.

With regards to "people are just asking it that is good enough", seems to me like we're just stacking a scenario where infiltration can't be done except by spellcasters. Which means it won't work well in a game that requires the solution to every problem to be spells. I fully admit that.

If having a disguise is all that is needed for entry, then Infiltration Expertise, a Disguise Kit, or a Seeming spell all help enable success, to varying degrees. The Seeming spell is essentially a level equivalent effect to an Assassin's Infiltration Expertise, both are available at 9th level.

Yes, but Seeming doesn't insinuate you into an organization. And Seeming fails to Truesight and Detect Thoughts, which were called out as fail-states for the mundane disguises. I look at it like this:

Seeming:
1. Can be pierced by Truesight (I didn't bring up liches and angels and demons, others did, and they have Truesight)
2. Susceptible to physical interaction (person can feel that the illusion is not there)
3. Allows for Investigation to pierce the illusion (vs Spell DC, so again we're looking at around DC 16)
4. Needs Deception to play the part
5. Needs Forgery to play the part (if documents are involved)

Infiltration Expertise
1. Can't be pierced by Truesight
2. Bypasses the Disguise/Forgery checks
3. Does not rouse suspicion, people simply accept the persona
4. Works over time and can be used over and over again with these same parameters, for long term infiltration and and whatever benefits might come with living multiple lives (Seeming can do this as far as the disguise goes, but has more opportunities to fail)

[Blatant Beast]

How the mighty have fallen, back when that book came out I remember people saying scout was a full replacement for ranger.

The Rogue Scout, is likely a better general scout than a PHB Ranger, due to the Pseudo-Expertise granted at 3rd level in Nature and Survival skills.

The Rogue Scout might be a better scout than a Tasha-style Ranger, as it is an open question whether a player will spend their 1st level Canny ability on Nature and Survival.

Rangers are a bit weird. I've seen a Horizon Walker PC that was poorly made, and poorly played, and was shocked how effective the character was accidentally.

Dr. Samurai, Infiltration Expertise does not really insert the PC into an Org Chart, in any sort of meaningful manner. The "I'm a Succubus" example I gave from real life play before demonstrates some of the limitations. A DM might also rule that Infiltration Expertise, does not give you automatic knowledge of the organization you want to infiltrate.

If the PCs, for example, have only come across the name of the Cult of the Tolling Bell, in intercepted messages, but don't know much more than the Cult has some contacts within the Longfinger Thieves Guild.....there is no guarantee that the DM will automatically assume that the PC knows the best rank, name of ranks, profession, etc, etc, to include in the Cover ID.

The Assassin might need to do more research on the subject to be infiltrated, to be able to make meaningful choices regarding their Cover ID. Infiltration Expertise can be handled differently depending upon the particular playstyle of the group in question.

[strangebloke]

Oof... telling people to just take others at their word, while simultaneously psycho-analyzing them.

I take you at your word, but you pretty consistently seem to misread my intentions and my friends' intentions. (which I know because I play with Ludic and others outside of this forum quite a bit) Some of this may be a failure to communicate on our part, but I really don't think so, so I'm left here trying to figure out why we keep having these 10-page disagreements over what is functionally nothing.

TBH, these endless circular debates over nothing are why I'm not active here anymore. It's just one side saying "generally I think [x] performs better at most tables" and another side going "but at SOME tables maybe it doesn't, why aren't you acknowledging these scenarios I've come up with" Neither of which really contradicts the other.

In fact, I don't think I'll reply further to this because I've already wasted too many hours of my life on this.

But optimizers can't agree to that, because they have to believe that their table is the standard table, so that their "optimization" can actually mean something to everyone other than the group they play with. Like... Ludic is telling us the types of infiltration missions that are appropriate for level 9 players as if it's a law of the universe that you have to have telepathy, polymorph, mind blank, and whatever other features to succeed. But as we all know, there are huge variations between tables; number of short rests, number of encounters, monster tactics, adjudicating skills, adjudicating spells, downtime, encounter difficulties, encounter dynamics, number of players, magic item access, feats/multiclassing.

I completely agree that its difficult to establish what is 'normal' for play. But you've already agreed with me, in this thread, that some of the situations where this ability is useful are unlikely to come up in a game. And I've seen others acknowledge as well that in a 'typical' game this ability won't come up from.

As I already pointed out, if we're talking about an "infiltration heavy" game, that's almost purely theoretical. I've never seen it, or heard about someone playing it. It's not something DND is really structured for. There are only sparse mechanics for dealing with this kind of thing, and most characters aren't set up to contribute in such a context, and infiltration isn't really something you do as a band of 4-5 characters working together. If you think about a spy novel, the kinds of things that people spend a lot of time on in those novels are things that are treated dismissively or trivially by DND as a system. Its similar to how DND treats things like surviving in the wilderness - even if you can't just cast goodberry, its possible for the outlander background ribbon to completely trivialize food gathering.

You could try to have an infiltration campaign, but we're well into the realm of theorycrafting a campaign at this point. Ludic is assuming that the bad guys have lots of magic that makes infiltration hard, because in DND those are the main tools available to badguys for defending themselves against infiltration. You might disagree with that specific version of a campaign, but again, its all made up.

I agree with all of this, except that the creation of the persona is part of a week of downtime, so everyone can be doing something.

The infiltration can be actually sneaking into a place and doing deliberate things, which would be "solo play", though the party can still be involved somehow, we're sort of assuming, despite all of the fancy features that everyone gets access to nowadays, that the party is just standing around. But that might not be the case.

the latter rather than the former is more my concern.

Maybe the rest of the party can be around in the infiltration context via some means, but I don't think that's there job. If one guy wants to do infiltration its not the rest of the party's job to figure out how they're going to be there with them.

If the infiltration is less actively going through and more like information finding, then it can be glossed over to some degree. "Did I learn anything useful while hob-nobbing with the nobles?" "Yes, you learned xyz". Here it is more about just having the access to these people, and being privy to the things they talk about, rather than trying to convince people to tell you stuff, or sneaking into a drawer and looking through notes.

I see the feature as having powerful long term benefits, you can use it in situations where you're not trying to sneak in and kill someone; you can just take on the life of someone else and get information you wouldn't otherwise have access to, make connections, gain status in guilds or other organizations, etc. Think Count of Monte Cristo, show up as an extremely wealthy noble from a distant land, and insinuate yourself into high society, and plots can go from there. In this way, you can originate and/or facilitate opportunities and avenues for the entire party in ways that we normally think casters can do out of combat with downtime. But you can do this with all sorts of cover, in all strata of society.

I mean again, is this going to be a huge campaign shaping thing where you're spending a lot of time in your guise, or is it just going to be something you occasionally use to avoid having to make a check you'd probably succeed on anyway?

My issue is that the former is not very sociable, and the latter isn't a very large benefit.

In principle, I'd think its pretty damn easy for a 9th (or especially 11th) level rogue to show up to a party and pretend to be a noble. That's a single DC 15 bluff/disguise check.

[JellyPooga]

Dr. Samurai, Infiltration Expertise does not really insert the PC into an Org Chart, in any sort of meaningful manner.

...and it doesn't have to, because that's not how a short-term infiltration would work.

Yes, you could play a long game and actually join the organisation as a mole and in that case, your credibility comes from your actual interaction with the organisation. That's not how you'd use a false identity, except as a means to start just such a long con.

To perform a short-term infiltration, you'd use one of your many alternate identities, utilising whichever one gets you in by association to the organisation. Creating an alt-ID of something you cannot possibly live up to (such as the given example Succubus) is not a fault of the ability, but of the player for making such a thin ID where you literally don't have the physical, magical or mental capabilities required of it. Making an alt-ID of a grizzled mercenary who used to run with a band of thugs that have a good reputation with the org you're infiltrating is better, but might fall down if you don't know much about that other organisation or are demonstrated to not actually be that tough or grizzled.

The 'trick', if there is one, is simply to use an alt-ID that garners enough trust to get you in on merits you actually possess; Bruce Wayne as Batmans "rich socialite" Alternate Identity works because he's actually rich and actually a socialite; no-one he meets suspects his true identity as the Dark Knight because everything they know about him, even if they've never met, tells them he's Bruce Wayne. Silk (of The Belgariad) can pose as the Drasnian Merchant of that name, despite being of royal blood, because he's actually Drasnian and has a good eye for trade, but only has a little more difficulty posing as an easterner because he's linguistically and culturally educated. If he didn't know multiple languages, he'd be a bad spy if he was trying to pass as a foreigner in anything but an emergency.

So for our Assassin to infiltrate an organisation, he doesn't need to pose as a member of it, necessarily, they just need to be someone that has legitimate interest in interacting with it. A wealthy merchant investing in a bank doesn't need any intimate knowledge of the bank and it's org chart, only to demonstrate that they're a)wealthy and b)of good standing. Infiltrating a cult as a prospective member doesn't mean you need to know who the big boss is; in fact that might be downright suspicious. Rather, posing as some rich, more-money-and-influence-than-sense noble dandy who drank the kool-aid might get you further in than trying to pass as an established member.

The point is, that a fully blown cover ID isn't something thrown together out of pieces that don't fit and the strength of the Assassin feature is that when a PC with it makes a functional alternate identity and not just a hammed-up disguise, it is all but infallible.

[Blatant Beast]

Having a cover identification of Bob the Baker does not help with the random group of bandits inhabiting the ruined moat house the party just came across.

Did the internet kill nuance? (the answer of course is: yes) People have not been saying Infiltration Expertise does nothing, people have been saying the ability fills a very small niche.

It is a niche that can be filled in the short term by a combination of abilities, spells and so forth, and it is a niche that can be filled in the long-term, through normal time consuming infiltration techniques.

Around and around we go in circles....I don't have time for circle jerk discussions today, I will come back when a new point is made, not the same ones over and over.

[Kane0]

Okay, I keep seeing this and it's bugging me. Say it with me: normalizing subclass design to be in line with your stronger entries isn't power creep. It's normalizing.

Soulknife/Phantom aren't power creep, because Arcane Trickster already existed.
Swarmkeeper/Fey Wanderer aren't power creep, because Gloomstalker already existed.
Rune Knight/Psi Warrior aren't power creeep, because Battle Master/Eldritch Knight already existed.
Even the Sorcerer subclasses aren't power creep, because the base Sorcerer was so constrained relative to every other caster.

Even still, you have a greater variety of options at the stronger end of the spectrum which can be seen as its own form of creep.
Within the same class too sometimes, as seen in something like a PHB Beastmaster vs a Tashas Drakewarden.

I've gone on record preferring the power level of the PHB sorcerer when it comes to full casters, and at this point it's really difficult to justify playing to that level given the presence of every other class and the Tasha's+ bloodlines and options.

[sithlordnergal]

I wonder if part of why people think Infiltration Expertise needs to do more is because it can easily be ruined by the rest of the party? Like sure, it gives the Assassin a False Identity, but only for themselves, and it only works as long as no one questions the identity too much. Unlike Seeming, which lets you disguise everyone in the party. Its very much a "Lone Wolf" kind of skill, like most of the Assassin subclass really, and DnD is very much a team game. And the team can absolutely ruin any attempts at stealth and infiltration.

And its not that rare for something like that to happen. I've ruined countless stealth operations due to either having a -1 Stealth and Heavy Armor, saying the wrong thing at the wrong time, or having Wild Magic go off at just the right time to alert everyone. And while that would absolutely ruin the plans of a Wizard using illusion magic, a Wizard with Seeming probably has a better way to escape the situation than the Rogue does in the form of teleports like Dimension Door.

Even still, you have a greater variety of options at the stronger end of the spectrum which can be seen as its own form of creep.
Within the same class too sometimes, as seen in something like a PHB Beastmaster vs a Tashas Drakewarden.

I've gone on record preferring the power level of the PHB sorcerer when it comes to full casters, and at this point it's really difficult to justify playing to that level given the presence of every other class and the Tasha's+ bloodlines and options.

Beast Master was just a bad class, period, and even after the buffs it got its better, but not amazing. Creating a subclass that fills a similar niche, but matches the baseline of the other subclasses in the Ranger and the game isn't power creep. That's just an update. Now, there are some good examples of power creep. For instance, Twilight Cleric is power creep, the Creation Bard is power creep, Shepard Druids were power creep when they came out. Drakewarden being what the Beastmaster should have been isn't power creep.

And while you may prefer the power level set by the Sorcerer and its subclasses, that's not the base power level of 5e. Its never been the baseline in 5e, its always been a bit below the baseline. Even when it was just the PHB, the Sorcerer had to compete against the Bard, Druid, Cleric, and Wizard. All of whom were better than the Sorcerer in some way or another. And I say that as someone who's favorite class in the game is the Wild Magic Sorcerer.

[Psyren]

Even still, you have a greater variety of options at the stronger end of the spectrum which can be seen as its own form of creep.
Within the same class too sometimes, as seen in something like a PHB Beastmaster vs a Tashas Drakewarden.

I've gone on record preferring the power level of the PHB sorcerer when it comes to full casters, and at this point it's really difficult to justify playing to that level given the presence of every other class and the Tasha's+ bloodlines and options.

And that's fair if you see 2014 Sorcerer as the ideal full caster ceiling, but (a) it's pretty clear the designers don't, and (b) even if they did, it would be a hell of a lot more work/impractical to nerf all the other casters down, than it would be to just raise Sorcerers up. I don't see why that's so bad for the game; if clerics and druids haven't broken it, stronger sorcerers sure won't.

(And no, I still disagree with the Ranger example; Drakewarden is unquestionably more powerful than 2014 BM, but not moreso than Gloomstalker. Again, normalizing.)

[Darth Credence]

I wonder if part of why people think Infiltration Expertise needs to do more is because it can easily be ruined by the rest of the party? Like sure, it gives the Assassin a False Identity, but only for themselves, and it only works as long as no one questions the identity too much. Unlike Seeming, which lets you disguise everyone in the party. Its very much a "Lone Wolf" kind of skill, like most of the Assassin subclass really, and DnD is very much a team game. And the team can absolutely ruin any attempts at stealth and infiltration.

And its not that rare for something like that to happen. I've ruined countless stealth operations due to either having a -1 Stealth and Heavy Armor, saying the wrong thing at the wrong time, or having Wild Magic go off at just the right time to alert everyone. And while that would absolutely ruin the plans of a Wizard using illusion magic, a Wizard with Seeming probably has a better way to escape the situation than the Rogue does in the form of teleports like Dimension Door.

It gives the assassin a false identity that is close to bullet proof, not just a false identity. The assassin creates enough documentation to back things up, which has all sorts of benefits. If they claim to be an agent of the king, they will have letters from the king confirming this that are good enough to pass scrutiny from anyone, other than the king's absolute inner circle (this is all how I would run it - I take the statement about the ability as covering all of that.) In addition, while they don't create identities for the party members, it isn't that hard to expand to include them. A wealthy merchant will have bodyguards, and perhaps advisors or accountants with them. So you get the assassin as the wealthy merchant, and you get the fighter as their bodyguard, and you get a wizard as their accountant, and you get the barbarian as their masseuse, or whatever other role as an employee of the assassin they want. If the group wants to play such a campaign, the DM should go with the employees of someone with a bulletproof identity are not likely to be investigated. If you don't suspect the foreign noble of being anything other than what they say, why would you question whether their lady-in-waiting is anything other than that?

If you are using stealth along with this, you are likely not using it to its full ability. It is not a sneaking ability, it is a social one.

In addition, a key factor is being missed - the identity does not need to be set up immediately before using it. Let's say a party tends to take the winters off of adventuring - avoid dealing with the worst weather, and give them time to do downtime activities. Well, once they hit level 9, they should have enough money to set up a dozen false identities every winter. The first winter after hitting 9, I would create a wealthy merchant, a famous chef, a religious leader, a foreign noble, a retired gladiator, a famous playwright, a successful general, an insightful jester, a skilled medium, a criminal lieutenant, an inquisitor in the largest faith that would have one, and the owner of a carnival/menagerie. Then, if I needed to use any of those in the future, they would already be ready to be stepped into.

Spoiler: Situation A - assassinating a king

Show

The party takes a job to assassinate a king of a neighboring kingdom. They are an assassin, a sorcerer, a cleric, and a fighter, all level 13 (those were randomly selected). After doing some investigation into the king, the assassin is confident that he can kill the king with his purple worm poison, they just have to be able to deliver it. So they create a plan. The assassin creates/uses a false identity of a famous chef from a faraway kingdom. They enter the city, go to the fanciest place to dine, and order something. The assassin as chef will taste just a bite, then throw down his napkin in disgust and go to leave. The other party members will try to calm him down, point out the good things about it, and call him by that false name, while otherwise pretending to try to be incognito. The goal being to lure the king into demanding the services of such a chef for his table. They pretend to avoid the king, to make the king want them even more, eventually giving in and allowing the king to hire him and his staff to prepare a meal. So he poisons the meal for the king. Now, the king has a food taster, but they have a cleric and a sorcerer. Somehow, between the two of them (I don't know, maybe the sorcerer is divine soul, maybe the cleric took metamagic adept and has subtle spell, maybe the fighter picks a fight with the taster before the lunch and punches them, then the cleric "heals" them) they get protection from poison cast on the taster. Taster tastes the food, everything is OK. King eats, king dies, sorcerer teleports them out of dodge.

Spoiler: Situation B - assassinating a king

Show

This time, we have an assassin, a barbarian, a wizard, and a bard, level 10. Same job, this time in the course of research, they find that the queen has recently died, and the king is distraught. So the assassin breaks out the famous medium disguise. They spend quite a bit to set up shop in a wealthy area, then the bard goes out to plant stories about the medium and their incredible skills (sure, this has to assume that there aren't a bunch of people who can speak with the dead.) The news eventually gets back to the king that this medium is in town - a famous medium that people in town have already heard about. They just need to string the king along enough to get him to agree to a private meeting, but since the medium is known to be a medium not any kind of fighter and the king is distraught over the death, this can be done. Once they have him alone, king is dead, wizard teleports (teleportation circle) them out of dodge while the barbarian makes sure no one can get in the room for the one minute casting time.

Spoiler: Situation C - assassinating a king

Show

Another king, another assassin party. Now we have an assassin, a ranger, a druid, and a warlock. They find that the king desires new experiences, paying large sums of money for them. So the assassin goes with the menagerie owner, either coming to town ahead of the menagerie to work out a deal, or maybe they have actually created a menagerie at some point. (We'll go with the former.) So they come to town and they start trying to make deals with landowners to put on their show. To do so, they have the ranger start bringing out some animals for the animal show - every one is actually a wild shaped druid, and they perform the tricks flawlessly to the amazement of the viewers. They do this for several landowners, to ensure that the amazing abilities with animals they have displayed get talked about, and to get the landowners to fight over who gets to host them and get their cut of the show. Since they know the king wants new experiences, it is only a matter of time before they ask the party to perform for the king. When the party is in the kings presence, the perfectly trained "bear" that has been flawless up until now goes crazy and mauls the king to death. The menagerie members flee ahead of the law, and a new story about them circulates, meaning this might be harder next time, although if you never use a bear again you might get away with it.

I could create scenarios for any of those identities to kill a king, and I think I could make them pretty entertaining to play. And, yes, the DM would absolutely need to be playing along to get these to work, but ultimately that's true for anything the party does. I started those by randomly selecting the party, then figuring out a scenario that would be fun for that party (IMO, of course). I have not run such a game in 5e - I've run heist-centric games in older versions, when a feature like this didn't exist, though, and I can see how it would have been a helpful one. (It would be much better at lower levels). One problem is that there aren't a ton of published modules about heists, and those that do tend to be low levels. If it doesn't come on line until level 9, the Keys from the Golden Vault only really makes it worthwhile in the fey palace one. If it was there at level 3, it would be useful for the entire campaign. I get why it's 9, but I agree with anyone who has said that it is underwhelming at that level. I think the designers made a mistake with it, and should have put more focus onto when abilities would actually be useful in game, rather than attempting to spread out everyones' "stronger" abilities to later on. Sometimes - like in this case, IMO - that robs them of the value they should have.

[sithlordnergal]

It gives the assassin a false identity that is close to bullet proof, not just a false identity. The assassin creates enough documentation to back things up, which has all sorts of benefits. If they claim to be an agent of the king, they will have letters from the king confirming this that are good enough to pass scrutiny from anyone, other than the king's absolute inner circle (this is all how I would run it - I take the statement about the ability as covering all of that.) In addition, while they don't create identities for the party members, it isn't that hard to expand to include them. A wealthy merchant will have bodyguards, and perhaps advisors or accountants with them. So you get the assassin as the wealthy merchant, and you get the fighter as their bodyguard, and you get a wizard as their accountant, and you get the barbarian as their masseuse, or whatever other role as an employee of the assassin they want. If the group wants to play such a campaign, the DM should go with the employees of someone with a bulletproof identity are not likely to be investigated. If you don't suspect the foreign noble of being anything other than what they say, why would you question whether their lady-in-waiting is anything other than that?

If you are using stealth along with this, you are likely not using it to its full ability. It is not a sneaking ability, it is a social one.

In addition, a key factor is being missed - the identity does not need to be set up immediately before using it. Let's say a party tends to take the winters off of adventuring - avoid dealing with the worst weather, and give them time to do downtime activities. Well, once they hit level 9, they should have enough money to set up a dozen false identities every winter. The first winter after hitting 9, I would create a wealthy merchant, a famous chef, a religious leader, a foreign noble, a retired gladiator, a famous playwright, a successful general, an insightful jester, a skilled medium, a criminal lieutenant, an inquisitor in the largest faith that would have one, and the owner of a carnival/menagerie. Then, if I needed to use any of those in the future, they would already be ready to be stepped into.

So, I think I didn't explain why I say it being party dependent is bad. You're right that if you're using stealth, then you're using it wrong. But its still reliant on the party making sure they don't break their roles, either on purpose or accidentally. All it really takes is one player not paying attention and just blurting out "Yeah, we're that semi-famous level 9 party. We're here to murder the king and burn down the castle." to the wrong person. Or for the Wild Magic Sorcerer to cast a Subtle Charm Person, only for Wild Magic to go off 10 times in a minute, during which you randomly poison the king, shoot a random guard with a 5th level Magic Missile, fireball themselves, deal 1d10 Necrotic damage to everyone in the room, and more...yeah, good luck talking your way out even WITH a solid false identity.

And those two aren't really hypothetical...I've been in a party with a Paladin like that, and I was the Wild Magic Sorcerer that did that. I ruined an entire session's worth of work and two session's worth of planning due to rolling a 1 on a d100. And its not like the DM could just handwave it all away. We called the session early that night because we were going to be in combat that next session.


Additionally, by level 9 your party should have some kind of notoriety. There are a few cases where they wouldn't, but for the most part they should. You might not suspect the Lady-In-Waiting at first, but if that Lady-in-Waiting has a close resemblance to a known Spore Druid, and she constantly has some weird spores floating around her, you might get suspicious.

[Witty Username]

I've gone on record preferring the power level of the PHB sorcerer when it comes to full casters, and at this point it's really difficult to justify playing to that level given the presence of every other class and the Tasha's+ bloodlines and options.

Sure with notes,
I think in that framework alot of classes could still use a tune up. Since we are talking about rogue, a bit of work on the features to make them more clear in what they are supposed to do. Soulknife and phantom are stronger than other rogue options (AT is still pretty good too) but they aren't really competitive with even phb sorcerer. Tuning up the rogue to that point just feels good for the system as a whole.

Also, I feel the skill floor of sorcerer could be lowered (this is from someone who finds wizards easier to play so feel free to have some salt grains with that observation). Sorcerer has this frustration that you still have a much wider range of options then most characters but the spell list being as restrictive as it is also makes it have a small margin for error. And some mixed messaging from some of the abilities and impressions could be cleaned up. Sorcerer being better suiled towards control rather than blasting for example.

[Schwann145]

Additionally, by level 9 your party should have some kind of notoriety.

But... why? This assumption is presumed all over the discussion, but there's no reason for it, IMO.
Especially if this is a game that is focused on espionage and assassination and infiltration. Your party would be working toward avoiding fame/infamy at all costs!

[sithlordnergal]

But... why? This assumption is presumed all over the discussion, but there's no reason for it, IMO.
Especially if this is a game that is focused on espionage and assassination and infiltration. Your party would be working toward avoiding fame/infamy at all costs!

Mostly because you can't reach level 9 without doing something. And doing something will net you some kind of fame/infamy, even if you try to avoid it. Even if you were to kill or erase every single person who hired you, you'd still have a reputation of "These guys can get things done, but they'll make you disappear afterwards". Lets say your party does manage to perfectly keep their identity a secret, they'll still have a reputation of being the ones to call if you need to infiltrate a place. And you'll likely be recognizable by the people in the know, which usually includes leaders of major organizations that might be targets of an assassination.

Think of it like the Winter Soldier. No one knew his actual identity as Bucky Barns, but he was still infamous due to his skill and reputation for getting things done. Plus he was able to be I.D.'d by a person who survived an encounter with him. You'll have that kind of rep if you manage to perfectly keep your identity hidden.


And that's even before we consider Divination spells like Scrying, Commune, or Legend Lore to help find out about the party. All spells a target of a 9th level party would conceivably have. And I don't know about you...but if I were someone in a position of power high enough for a level 9 party to target me, and I heard there's some kind of group of super assassins running around, my first thought would be to use every Divination spell available to find as much information as I can get. Nondetection may be a 3rd level spell, but it only ever targets one creature. And none of those spells require you to know intimate details of their targets, just a general description at best.

[strangebloke]

But... why? This assumption is presumed all over the discussion, but there's no reason for it, IMO.
Especially if this is a game that is focused on espionage and assassination and infiltration. Your party would be working toward avoiding fame/infamy at all costs!

Breaking my own rule to reiterate:

I have literally never heard of anyone playing this kind of game, so its impossible for me to comment on what would or would not be reasonable in such a campaign.

Again, this is like asking how to do a poirot-style murder mystery in DND. It doesn't really have any support from the system and seems like a poor fit.

[Keltest]

Breaking my own rule to reiterate:

I have literally never heard of anyone playing this kind of game, so its impossible for me to comment on what would or would not be reasonable in such a campaign.

Again, this is like asking how to do a poirot-style murder mystery in DND. It doesn't really have any support from the system and seems like a poor fit.

This seems kind of contradictory given that we are talking about the rules and abilities the game specifically has for it.

[JellyPooga]

All it really takes is one player not paying attention and just blurting out "Yeah, we're that semi-famous level 9 party. We're here to murder the king and burn down the castle." to the wrong person. Or for the Wild Magic Sorcerer to cast a Subtle Charm Person, only for Wild Magic to go off 10 times in a minute, during which you randomly poison the king, shoot a random guard with a 5th level Magic Missile, fireball themselves, deal 1d10 Necrotic damage to everyone in the room, and more...yeah, good luck talking your way out even WITH a solid false identity.

And those two aren't really hypothetical...

LOL

Your argument of "yeah, but playing as a bunch of lolrandom morons (no judgement) means infiltration is almost impossible" might not hold as much water as you might think. Really go back and read what you wrote there...one player literally saying "we're the baddies!" out loud and another, knowing there's a chance of literal chaos being unleashed any time they cast a spell, casting a spell at a time when the very last thing the party needs is to unleash chaos...can you see why self-sabotage is not the counter argument you appear to claim it is?

By the same token, Pass Without Trace isn't a very good party stealth tool because the Barbarian keeps standing in plain sight.

In a game where the party is a goofy parade of rare and exotic races and classes, using features and spells that make them stand out of a crowd, yeah, an infiltration and espionage focused character is going to spend a lot of time pinching thr bridge of their nose and visiting herbalists and alchemists for tonics for their migraines. Notoriety and reputation is easy to gather when you're the exception to the norm; there's a reason celebrities seem larger than life. Power, importance and position don't necessarily go hand in hand with celebrity though, even in a world with mass media, let alone one without. Some of the most influential people in the real world are faceless suits or uniforms and The Winter Soldier, while we're told is supposed to be one of the the Marvel universe's premier spys, is practically a poster boy for "hey look at that obvious and easily identified person standing out from a crowd by having a massive fight in a public place with little to no regard for preserving his cover".

[strangebloke]

This seems kind of contradictory given that we are talking about the rules and abilities the game specifically has for it.

5e also has rules that govern things like running a business, but I don't think anyone is talking about a 'real-estate-focused' campaign except as a thought experiment. You wouldn't, in a thread about glamour bard, explain that a glamour bard is good because its good for a campaign themed around running a tavern.

The "infiltration-focused" campaign isn't something I've ever seen or heard about. DND characters are generally loud, and the only core competency assumed by the rules is that you're good at combat, and the core assumption is generally that you're a close-knit band of allies, not a secret order operating under deep cover.

And as Ludic keeps pointing out, a campaign where there's a lot of infiltration would probably include challenging places to infiltrate. In DND, that generally means a lot of wards and mindreaders and scrying and so on. It probably also means NPCs with really high insight, and assassin9 helps with this to a degree but again, the point is not that its literally a useless feature, just that its not enough to hard carry the class even in the specific context of this "infiltration focused" campaign.

Again, IMX, but these kind of "dupe the guards/nobles/merchants" stuff totally does happen a lot in DND, its just more at a lower level, and if this was third level I think it'd be a fine feature for the assassin along with what they already get, especially if they also got something good at level 9. At higher levels you're more notorious and there's more woo woo magic bull2#$^ in the air.