Charming the Arrow on a melee weapon

[Khatoblepas]

So I'm interested in Charming the Arrow, a feat that allows fey to use their charisma bonus on bows instead of dexterity. Of course, I want that on melee attacks too, and the only weapon this could possibly apply to is the Yuan-ti Serpent Bow. Unlike all the other bows that turn into melee weapons, the Serpent Bow is the only one that is still called a "bow" when you use it as a melee weapon. All the other ones "function as" a different weapon.

Tragically, the wording of Charming the Arrow is thus:

With a bow or crossbow made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Charisma modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier on attack rolls.

It only replaces your dexterity modifier, not your main modifier to bows, and the serpent bow is a two handed weapon. So it's not going to be easy to Finesse it. But Finesse it I want to.

If you have a Tiny Feycraft Serpent Bow, it counts as a one-handed weapon for Tiny creatures. Give that to a Small character and it's Light (due to the weapon sizing rules). But this stops Charming the Arrow from working, as it states "made for a creature of your size category". There's only one creature in the entirety of D&D that this could work on: Unseelie Kobolds. Slight Build states:

When subject of a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (Hide, for example), kobolds are treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to them. They are also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. Kobolds can make use of weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without a penalty, though the space and reach do not change. These effects stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the kobold's size category.

Surely a Tiny weapon in the hands of a Kobold is made for them?

Am I reading the rules right here? I can't see any other way to get Dexterity to attack on any given two handed weapon, and it does seem pretty cool to have a kobold with a serpent bow able to shank OR shoot someone with their force of personality alone. Could make for a nice Dragonfire Inspiration bard. I'm just not sure about the size category prerequisite for Charming the Arrow, and how it would interact with Slight Build.

[Inevitability]

There's a very simple way to get dexterity to attack rolls, and it even innately synergizes with high charisma:

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks.

Becoming an incorporeal fey is still somewhat tricky, but it's definitely achievable.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

An elvencraft bow (RotW) is still a bow no matter whether you hit someone with it at range or in melee (even if it otherwise functions as either a quarterstaff or club), so any feat that applies to bows should function even if you whack someone with it upside the head.

[Anthrowhale]

Is Snowflake Wardance instead viable?

[pabelfly]

You could do a reverse Gish that uses spells for melee. Thunderlance uses CHA for your attack and damage bonuses. Since it does a base 3d6 damage, you can do the normal shenanigans of stacking metamagic and metamagic reductions to boost your base damage and you'd still benefit from pumping CHA for your attack rolls and bonus damage.

[Crake]

Surely a Tiny weapon in the hands of a Kobold is made for them?

Even with slight build, a kobold is still small, and the bow is tiny. It is not a weapon made for a creature of your size category, regardless of whether you can wield it without penalty or not.

Feycraft also only allows a weapon to be weapon finessed if it would NORMALLY be a one handed weapon. A tiny bow is still a 2 handed weapon under normal conditions, so simply being wielded by a kobold doesnt make it qualify to be weapon finessable

[Zarvistic]

Would aptitude enhancement + companion guard style work for this?

[Saintheart]

Would aptitude enhancement + companion guard style work for this?

I'd say no, because Companion Guard Style applies to longswords and longspears. I'd understood the most common interpretation of Aptitude is that the weapon quality only functions for feats applicable to one type of weapon, most famously Lightning Maces which is a feat that applies only to the Light Mace. Thus, no Boomerang Daze for your greatsword since that applies to Xen'drik and Talenta boomerangs. If it were otherwise we'd see a de rigeur recommendation of Aptitude Weapon + Shadow Blade for Dex to damage whenever you want it on your Greataxe, but that doesn't work either since Shadow Blade addresses multiple weapon types. (On the plus side, though, if you collected a bunch of feats like Lightning Mace + Tormtor School + Spinning Halberd all in the one build, I think Aptitude would apply them to the one weapon simultaneously by RAW).

Feycraft also only allows a weapon to be weapon finessed if it would NORMALLY be a one handed weapon. A tiny bow is still a 2 handed weapon under normal conditions, so simply being wielded by a kobold doesnt make it qualify to be weapon finessable

Just underlining here that the Feycraft template explicitly only makes a weapon light for the purposes of Weapon Finesse and no other function i.e. a feycraft one-hander isn't a light weapon for TWF penalty purposes. (Conversely, that means a Feycraft longsword can be Finessed but still used fully with Power Attack, lol.) Weapon sizing calculations are basically transparent to the Feycraft template's benefits.

Thunderlance uses CHA for your attack and damage bonuses. Since it does a base 3d6 damage, you can do the normal shenanigans of stacking metamagic and metamagic reductions to boost your base damage and you'd still benefit from pumping CHA for your attack rolls and bonus damage.

Special mention to Whirling Blade, which also subs STR for CHA to attack and damage although the weapon is as normal, and which can sort-of function as both a melee and ranged option. Only a once-off though, so Thunderlance still comes out the winner.

[pabelfly]

Special mention to Whirling Blade, which also subs STR for CHA to attack and damage although the weapon is as normal, and which can sort-of function as both a melee and ranged option. Only a once-off though, so Thunderlance still comes out the winner.

Whirling Blade attacks all foes in a line, so it could have situational uses against mobs and swarms. And if I understand the two spells right, you could also use Whirling Blade to throw your Thunderlance at enemies.

[Inevitability]

Whirling Blade attacks all foes in a line, so it could have situational uses against mobs and swarms. And if I understand the two spells right, you could also use Whirling Blade to throw your Thunderlance at enemies.

Whirling Blade can be modified by Sculpt Spell to target, for instance, four 10 ft. cubes within 60 ft. of you. Typically it should just be hitting all foes in an encounter at that point.

[Zarvistic]

I'd say no, because Companion Guard Style applies to longswords and longspears. I'd understood the most common interpretation of Aptitude is that the weapon quality only functions for feats applicable to one type of weapon, most famously Lightning Maces which is a feat that applies only to the Light Mace. Thus, no Boomerang Daze for your greatsword since that applies to Xen'drik and Talenta boomerangs. If it were otherwise we'd see a de rigeur recommendation of Aptitude Weapon + Shadow Blade for Dex to damage whenever you want it on your Greataxe, but that doesn't work either since Shadow Blade addresses multiple weapon types. (On the plus side, though, if you collected a bunch of feats like Lightning Mace + Tormtor School + Spinning Halberd all in the one build, I think Aptitude would apply them to the one weapon simultaneously by RAW).

I see what you mean, but then it seems lightning maces isnt keyed to light maces either right? Seems like just a condition you need to meet to get the effect. Say you have 4 arms and are wielding 2 maces and 1 bow and you roll a threat with the bow, that would give you another attack with the bow wouldnt it? Interesting build with targetteer fighter now that I think about it: give up all your mace and whatever else attacks for crit, get them back with lightning maces+sniper as crits. This needs to go in your handbooks combo or build section if it works

[Saintheart]

I see what you mean, but then it seems lightning maces isnt keyed to light maces either right? Seems like just a condition you need to meet to get the effect.

Correct. As long as you've got an Aptitude weapon and a feat that keys to a specific weapon, that feat's benefit can be applied to your Aptitude weapon. Lightning Mace can therefore be used with greatswords or whatever, not just light maces - if the weapon is an Aptitude weapon.

Say you have 4 arms and are wielding 2 maces and 1 bow and you roll a threat with the bow, that would give you another attack with the bow wouldnt it?

Don't even have to be wielding the maces. Roll a threat with the bow, so long as it's an Aptitude weapon, you can apply Lightning Mace to it. So long as you've got the feat Lightning Mace. Your DM might point at Lightning Mace and indicate it requires you're wielding maces in each of your hands, though.

Interesting build with targetteer fighter now that I think about it: give up all your mace and whatever else attacks for crit, get them back with lightning maces+sniper as crits. This needs to go in your handbooks combo or build section if it works

Yes and no. The Sniper ability refers only to giving up "attacks", not giving up ranged attacks. Therefore, give up a bunch of your attacks, Aptitude your Lightning Mace feat into your bow, and assuming you score a threat, you get another attack. So yeah, you get at least one back. However, the problem is Sniper's wording that the enhanced critical threat range only applies to the first shot, not to all the Targetteer's remaining attacks. And Lightning Mace only says that you get the same attack bonus again, not the same critical threat range. It's a good way to pick up at least one additional attack, though.

[N/Arz]

Feycraft Hand crossbow bayonet or Knife crossbow bayonet should do it.

[Troacctid]

Whirling Blade can be modified by Sculpt Spell to target, for instance, four 10 ft. cubes within 60 ft. of you. Typically it should just be hitting all foes in an encounter at that point.

Sadly, this doesn't work because it's an Effect, not an Area, making it ineligible for Sculpt Spell.

[remetagross]

Feycraft Hand crossbow bayonet or Knife crossbow bayonet should do it.

I concur. A hand crossbow is a 1-handed weapon, so feycraft turns it into a finessable weapon, but it's still a weapon of the proper size for your character.

Take a dip into Martial Rogue at the beginning of your build for hand crossbow proficiency + Hand Crossbow Focus as a bonus feat and you're good to go!

[Saintheart]

I concur. A hand crossbow is a 1-handed weapon, so feycraft turns it into a finessable weapon, but it's still a weapon of the proper size for your character.

Take a dip into Martial Rogue at the beginning of your build for hand crossbow proficiency + Hand Crossbow Focus as a bonus feat and you're good to go!

For the lols, Crossbow Sniper would seem to apply to a crossbow bayonet's attacks too. Half DEX to damage might not be a bad idea. And there's some argument to say you could use the feat on an Aptitude weapon since it demonstrably applies to only one weapon type at a time: the crossbow you have Weapon Focus in. (And Hand Crossbow Focus can be used to qualify for it, too).

[Jay R]

According to the rules as written, the name of the Feat is "Charming the Arrow". You aren't charming the bow.

It also states "You have a gift with ranged weapons. The force of your personality enables you to 'convince' them to fly straight and true." It only applies to ranged weapons, and only applies to them flying.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

According to the rules as written, the name of the Feat is "Charming the Arrow". You aren't charming the bow.

The logic doesn't quite work.

After all, the darkness spell actually creates light in a pitch-black environment.

[Inevitability]

Yeah, there's enough examples of feats that do something different than their name would imply, and consequently a feat's name shouldn't be treated as a piece of rules text.

Point-Blank Shot RAW works with thrown weapons. The developers clearly intended it to work with thrown weapons. I know no DM whose table would be improved by ruling it does not work with thrown weapons. Arguing that it shouldn't work with thrown weapons, because you don't 'shoot' a handaxe the way you 'shoot' an arrow, has no merit.

[Jay R]

The logic doesn't quite work.

After all, the darkness spell actually creates light in a pitch-black environment.

You deliberately left out the main part of my argument, so you could pretend that "The logic doesn't quite work."

Here it is again:

It also states "You have a gift with ranged weapons. The force of your personality enables you to 'convince' them to fly straight and true." It only applies to ranged weapons, and only applies to them flying.

Yeah, there's enough examples of feats that do something different than their name would imply, and consequently a feat's name shouldn't be treated as a piece of rules text.

That's right. That's why I cited rules text, which you deliberately ignored. Here it is again:

It also states "You have a gift with ranged weapons. The force of your personality enables you to 'convince' them to fly straight and true." It only applies to ranged weapons, and only applies to them flying.

[loky1109]

That's right. That's why I cited rules text, which you deliberately ignored. Here it is again:

It also states "You have a gift with ranged weapons. The force of your personality enables you to 'convince' them to fly straight and true." It only applies to ranged weapons, and only applies to them flying.

You didn't. Your quote isn't "rules text". It's fluff. It doesn't matter.

[Inevitability]

That's right. That's why I cited rules text, which you deliberately ignored. Here it is again:

It also states "You have a gift with ranged weapons. The force of your personality enables you to 'convince' them to fly straight and true." It only applies to ranged weapons, and only applies to them flying.

Now, I do personally believe the text you are quoting is not part of the feat's benefit. It's descriptive text. The PHB explains very clearly that what a feat actually allows you to do is located in the 'benefits' line. If the text ever matters, it is near-exclusively to introduce some selectable element: skill focus, weapon focus, etc.

But even if you disagree, I hope you too believe descriptive text ought to be taken less seriously. It makes assumptions to tell a flavorful story, it talks about general use rather than specific edge cases. Empower Spell says you "You can cast spells to greater effect", but that assumes you have 2nd-level slots: heck, it assumes you're a caster! Charnel Miasma says "Your close connection to death magic causes others to find your company unpleasant" - that doesn't mean it should impose arbitrary Diplomacy penalties. Battle Blessing says "You can cast spells more quickly than usual in the heat of battle", which is true, but it'd be absurd to take that to mean you can't use the feat outside of battle.

And with that understanding, nothing about this text suggests the feat wouldn't work with the proposed trick. It talks about 'ranged weapons', well, a serpent bow certainly is a ranged weapon, just one you can make melee attacks with. "The force of your personality convinces them to fly straight and true", certainly! And when we read the rules text, we discover that it convinces them to do other things also! No contradiction, just a case of the general flavor text failing to cover every single little use case.

Putting descriptive text on the same level as rules text is one thing. Treating it as overriding rules text is the road to madness - the scope mentioned in a feat description cannot safely be assumed to be the only context that feat would ever apply in.

[remetagross]

In addition, taking the descriptive to heart means that the ranged weapons themselves can fly true - not the ammo they fire. And by RAW a "ranged weapon" is, say, a bow, while an arrow is "ammunition".

So the feat allows you to make bows fly true, somehow, but not arrows.

[Crake]

Now, I do personally believe the text you are quoting is not part of the feat's benefit. It's descriptive text. The PHB explains very clearly that what a feat actually allows you to do is located in the 'benefits' line. If the text ever matters, it is near-exclusively to introduce some selectable element: skill focus, weapon focus, etc.

But even if you disagree, I hope you too believe descriptive text ought to be taken less seriously. It makes assumptions to tell a flavorful story, it talks about general use rather than specific edge cases. Empower Spell says you "You can cast spells to greater effect", but that assumes you have 2nd-level slots: heck, it assumes you're a caster! Charnel Miasma says "Your close connection to death magic causes others to find your company unpleasant" - that doesn't mean it should impose arbitrary Diplomacy penalties. Battle Blessing says "You can cast spells more quickly than usual in the heat of battle", which is true, but it'd be absurd to take that to mean you can't use the feat outside of battle.

And with that understanding, nothing about this text suggests the feat wouldn't work with the proposed trick. It talks about 'ranged weapons', well, a serpent bow certainly is a ranged weapon, just one you can make melee attacks with. "The force of your personality convinces them to fly straight and true", certainly! And when we read the rules text, we discover that it convinces them to do other things also! No contradiction, just a case of the general flavor text failing to cover every single little use case.

Putting descriptive text on the same level as rules text is one thing. Treating it as overriding rules text is the road to madness - the scope mentioned in a feat description cannot safely be assumed to be the only context that feat would ever apply in.

The descriptive text isn't mechanical rules, but they can help inform you of the intent of the rules, and shouldn't be entirely disregarded as superfluous

In addition, taking the descriptive to heart means that the ranged weapons themselves can fly true - not the ammo they fire. And by RAW a "ranged weapon" is, say, a bow, while an arrow is "ammunition".

So the feat allows you to make bows fly true, somehow, but not arrows.

This I think is an example of some of the things that drive people away from 3.5 as a system, its a hyper focus on the exact verbiage, while ignoring the context and intent implied by the words.

[Pezzo]

Aren't arrows both ammunitions and ranged weapons? They are listed under weapons, and they appear on the weapons table.

[remetagross]

This I think is an example of some of the things that drive people away from 3.5 as a system, its a hyper focus on the exact verbiage, while ignoring the context and intent implied by the words.

Agree with you: this was exactly my point.

[Zamboza]

Aren't arrows both ammunitions and ranged weapons? They are listed under weapons, and they appear on the weapons table.

AFAIK arrows do not count as weapons themselves, only as ammunition - they are listed as a sub-section in the table as ammunition for bows and their text entry only states that they can be used in melee as an improvised melee weapon. Same goes for bolts and sling shots. The entry for shurikens implies that ammunition doesn't count as a weapon automatically, as:

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see Masterwork Weapons), and what happens to them after they are thrown.

Even if arrows would be considered a weapon, this doesn't matter for Charming the Arrow - the feat explicitly calls out attacks with bows and crossbows.