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  1. - Top - End - #721
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    And yet, there's not actually that much more major overall plot happening than proposed in the original outline. All the originally proposed main characters (Jon Snow, Daenerys, Arya, Sansa, Bran) are on the same trajectory. Just a lot more worldbuilding, politicking and side characters. Which I like, but it's a very clear sign that Martin wandered off into his garden and forgot the plot.
    I remember watching a TV show that did this (and now I'm completely drawing a blank on the name), where basically all of the components for the obvious end plot were in place, and they just kinda "floated" for a few additional seasons in the middle. As long as the studio would greenlight two seasons out, they'd just push the ending back and put in another season of filler in-between. Eventually, the series faded in poopularity, and then they did the final ending (which had been in limbo since like mid-season 2).

    That's more or less the impression I got with ASOIAF. He had the planned ending (more or less). Once Dany arrives in Westeros with her dragons and army (in whatever form that takes), the end sequence begins, resolving the kingdom conflict and the threat from the North.

    But in the middle? Side plot after side plot after side plot, none of which did more than window dressing effects on the larger plot. And, as I observed above, this would not really have been too much of a problem, except that it required him to come up with "something delaying Dany's arrival", so he could continue telling more and more detailed stuff going on in Westeros. The actual stuff he did (in Westeros) wasn't bad stuff. Heck. Would have been fantastic if he'd just finished his ASOIAF story and then incorporated all of those ideas into other stories, set in different times/places instead. It's why I don't really blame him for doing it. He fell in love with the setting and the social and political components of it, and just wanted to tell stories about people living and interacting within it. Nothing at all wrong with that.

    Well, unless you're actually waiting for "Dany arrives with her dragons and her army, and we deal with the main threats to the setting". The problem is that Dany is put in limbo while everything else is going on, and it really shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    I honestly find something kinda heartwarming in how the Drizzt series has been running for almost 40 years. Award winners come, trends roll through, dozens of "a major new talent in the field" authors have flared white hot and burned out without a trace, but that goddamn dark elf nobody will actually admit to liking* just keeps selling books. There's something really charming about that to me.

    Every now and again, I have an insane urge to read all of them. It'd take years, the series is up to 39 books at this point. Salvatore is a machine is all I can say, because he's written multiple other series in the last 36 years as well. Like Sanderson, but with a detectable prose style and a less obnoxious fan base.
    Folks keep paying money to buy books with the character, or mentioning the character, or whatever. Supply rises to meet demand.

    Full disclosure. I think I've read maybe one or two D&D based books (and can't for the life of me recall the setting, I think one of FR at least... maybe?). Honestly, they were pure drivel. Formulaic characters. Simplistic plots. "Twists" that were so obvious that I had literally thought "this character has to secretly be doing X, otherwise there's no reason to put it in the book", and sure enough.. that's what happened.

    On the flip side, I remember them being fast/easy reads, and a reasonable distraction. I didn't need to really pay attention, so I didn't. And to be fair, many of the plots and twist in more "serious fantasy" novels at the time, were also pretty freaking obvious too. So I guess the books did accomplish what their niche is about. Maybe?

  2. - Top - End - #722
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    I was going to make a joke in the books thread about the Game of Thrones show writers putting in hundreds of episodes of filler Naruto style until GRRM caught up with them, then I realised thatís what he was doing in FFC/DoD.

  3. - Top - End - #723
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    Inspired by SFDebris' recent retrospectives, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

    Saw it in cinema when it came out, thought it was mostly dreadful, mainly due to Depp portraying a character that only shared a name and owning the same business with the proper Wonka. While it did have the odd neat moment, it wasn't a patch on the first attempt, which in itself wasn't anywhere near as good as the book or it's sequel.

    So to find out it was reasonably well critically received and has a decent number of fans definitely came as a suprise.

    Also add me to the camp who far prefer Mass Effect to Mass Effect 2 for many, many reasons. Only thing I can say for ME2 is lke Charlie and the Chocolate Factory it has the odd neat moments, and I have a theory that the more you played the first game the worst the sequel is for you, and I played that first one like five times including completing it on Insanity. ME2 is also better than ME3 at least, which again has some neat moments, but still has so much that still makes me grumpy to think about even now.

  4. - Top - End - #724
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie_One View Post
    Inspired by SFDebris' recent retrospectives, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

    Saw it in cinema when it came out, thought it was mostly dreadful, mainly due to Depp portraying a character that only shared a name and owning the same business with the proper Wonka. While it did have the odd neat moment, it wasn't a patch on the first attempt, which in itself wasn't anywhere near as good as the book or it's sequel.

    So to find out it was reasonably well critically received and has a decent number of fans definitely came as a surprise.
    I am not automatically opposed to reboots or homages or whatever. I prefer they be kept in the same vein, not a "lean-so-hard-into-the-campiness-because-we're-so-hip-and-clever" crap, so given the quirk of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory I didn't hold the Depp Quirk against it (and I like a lot of Depp movies). What I did, however, hold against it is the fact that there is absolutely no need whatsoever to reboot the 1971 movie. As such, I did not watch C&tCF, nor the Itboy's new version.

    That being said, I don't recall it having particularly positive reviews.

    I was surprised people so strongly disliked the Stallone Dredd movie.

    I was surprised more people didn't like the Karl Urban Dredd.

    Come to think of it, also surprised more people didn't like Priest, also with Karl Urban.

    Guess I like Karl Urban from before the deconstructionist crap!

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie_One View Post
    Also add me to the camp who far prefer Mass Effect to Mass Effect 2 for many, many reasons. Only thing I can say for ME2 is lke Charlie and the Chocolate Factory it has the odd neat moments, and I have a theory that the more you played the first game the worst the sequel is for you, and I played that first one like five times including completing it on Insanity. ME2 is also better than ME3 at least, which again has some neat moments, but still has so much that still makes me grumpy to think about even now.
    I played the Mass Effect games straight through for the first time around when ME3 came out, and I still prefer ME1 to ME2. Though for me, in addition to thinking the RPG systems are too simplified, it's because one of the things that drew me to ME1 (and Bioware games in the first place) over other western RPGs was being able to have F/F romance in it. And ME2 mostly just... doesn't, especially if you don't have the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC. (There's Kelly Chambers, I guess? But even the people who programmed the achievements don't think that counts.)

    It sometimes baffles me that I'll see both praise for Mass Effect including same-gender romances and "Mass Effect 2 was the best ME game" in the same article, with no mention of there even being any tension between these two things.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie_One View Post
    [...]I have a theory that the more you played the first game the worst the sequel is for you, and I played that first one like five times including completing it on Insanity.
    If you'd like some evidence regarding that theory, I would be evidence against it. Have played the first game plenty of times, including multiple times before ME2 came out, but nonetheless consider ME1 the weakest of the trilogy by a significant margin. Still good, but far less so than its sequels.

    Quote Originally Posted by SerTabris View Post
    It sometimes baffles me that I'll see both praise for Mass Effect including same-gender romances and "Mass Effect 2 was the best ME game" in the same article, with no mention of there even being any tension between these two things.
    I would imagine that's likely indicative of most people seeing the romances as only a minor part of what makes the games good, personally. Worth mentioning, but not something that will define which they think is best.
    Last edited by Zevox; Yesterday at 07:20 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #727
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    I liked ME 1 so much I'm never playing it again. I have very fond memories of it you see, and I also know that the first time I have to deal with the frankly D-tier shooting (even for its time) and the inventory, I'll overwrite all those happy feels with disappointment and frustration.
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  8. - Top - End - #728
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    Yeah, I'll happily say ME1 is probably the best Mass Effect game, but it's also certainly the least fun. Recognising that those are two different axes (in all media, not just games) has done wonders for me.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    I remember watching a TV show that did this (and now I'm completely drawing a blank on the name), where basically all of the components for the obvious end plot were in place, and they just kinda "floated" for a few additional seasons in the middle. As long as the studio would greenlight two seasons out, they'd just push the ending back and put in another season of filler in-between. Eventually, the series faded in poopularity, and then they did the final ending (which had been in limbo since like mid-season 2).
    Probably not what you mean but How I Met Your Mother did basically that, filming the show's ending early on, then shoehorning it in in the end in spite of it not fitting the way the characters had developed, leading to its starring presence on "worst tv show endings ever" listicles since then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    I liked ME 1 so much I'mnever playing it again. I have very fond memories of it you see, and I also know that the first time I have to deal with the frankly D-tier shooting (even for its time) and the inventory, I'll overwrite all those happy feels with disappointment and frustration.
    Quote Originally Posted by MinimanMidget View Post
    Yeah, I'll happily say ME1 is probably the best Mass Effect game, but it's also certainly the least fun. Recognising that those are two different axes (in all media, not just games) has done wonders for me.
    No lie, ME1 has by far my very favourite combat mechanics in any of three games, but, and it's a big but, it didn't click for me until reaching the artefact on the second playthrough which is many, many hours of playtime to get there, and that is definitely a strong case against it.

    That you can upgrade the shotgun to a rocket launcher or the sniper rifle into a railgun is way more fun than the flat upward curve of gun power in ME2. Then there's also how gloriously fun the Mako can be when you're using it to its full potential. That many people never discovered that the battle cannon has a zoom in their playthroughs is sad as man that was entertaining.
    Last edited by Trixie_One; Today at 03:35 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by pita View Post
    Probably not what you mean but How I Met Your Mother did basically that, filming the show's ending early on, then shoehorning it in in the end in spite of it not fitting the way the characters had developed, leading to its starring presence on "worst tv show endings ever" listicles since then.
    Which, on the topic of the thread is actually one of my things I enjoyed and was surprised so many people hated. I wouldn't call the show realistic, but it always had a keen eye for the flaws and limits of its characters and world, so a bittersweet ending where no, things don't just all work out, but that doesn't mean you can't be happy or get a second shot at something which didn't work before, really worked for me

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    Which, on the topic of the thread is actually one of my things I enjoyed and was surprised so many people hated. I wouldn't call the show realistic, but it always had a keen eye for the flaws and limits of its characters and world, so a bittersweet ending where no, things don't just all work out, but that doesn't mean you can't be happy or get a second shot at something which didn't work before, really worked for me
    I didn't ever watch HIMYM so this is all second-hand, but my impression I got from all my angry friends was that they weren't mad the show ended on a sad note -- they were mad that it suddenly ended on a sad note out of nowhere, and then unraveled all the character development arbitrarily to force an early-draft ending that didn't fit the show's evolved tone.

    Basically the complaint seemed to be that they turned it into a Shaggy Dog story.

  13. - Top - End - #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by pita View Post
    Probably not what you mean but How I Met Your Mother did basically that
    they did not "have all the components in place". At best they had all the components in a whole big mess on the floor
    Last edited by Bohandas; Today at 08:37 AM.
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Yeah, like, the mother was barely in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I didn't ever watch HIMYM so this is all second-hand, but my impression I got from all my angry friends was that they weren't mad the show ended on a sad note -- they were mad that it suddenly ended on a sad note out of nowhere, and then unraveled all the character development arbitrarily to force an early-draft ending that didn't fit the show's evolved tone.

    Basically the complaint seemed to be that they turned it into a Shaggy Dog story.
    I mean...sort of? Like, to be clear, the ending, that the mother had been dead, was predicted extremely early on and remained a common prediction throughout. The mother was a major character in the last season, but only there and never spoke throughout this years long story, which led most people to assume she was either dead or dying.

    On the claim of reversing character development, I certainly could see how you would view Barney and Robin as that, but frankly, I disagree. Barney, to the extent he was a character, was something of a cipher, with his entire personality being built on avenging himself on the very type of man he made himself into. He thought Robin could be his escape from that, but she couldn't, because the things she wanted to do with her life (being a globe-trotting reporter) did not fit with his actual escape from that, his friends, who were quite tightly location bound to the New York area. That conflict eventually resulted in them separating, while Robin (almost) always chose career over relationship, so until she'd succeeded in that career, or found someone totally willing to travel with her (which, frankly was never Barney, this was a guy who didn't know how to drive because he was so much a 'New Yorker') no relationship was going to work.

    For Ted and Robin, the show is called How I Met Your Mother, but as Precure notes, it's very definitely not about the Mother, except in the last season. Ted argues the show is about how he became the man who could actually be with the Mother and who she would be willing to be with. And that's true. It's also about how he and Robin, eventually became people who could be with one another.

    For me, it's the story of three couples, one which worked (almost) all the time, Lily and Marshall. One which only worked for a while, Barney and Robin. And one which couldn't work, until they both reached a point where it could, Robin and Ted and they basically all worked for me. So the ending worked for me, though I believe I am in the minority there.
    Last edited by ecarden; Today at 09:49 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #736
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    This is not helped by a lot of RTwP games adapting D&D or similar systems, which for a videogame have way too many functionally redundant abilities and options for those abilities and modifiers for the options. Even a very good general interface design is going to struggle with combining metamagic and upcasting and multi-targeting a spell in one interface that can be used in real time. Which is why games actually meant to be played in real time dont have stuff like this. But a D&D game needs to, or the fans get bent out of shape because twinned acid arrow in a 3rd level slot doesnt work right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Well, yeah, a bad interface is bad and annoying, that's true whether you're playing turn-based, RTWP or real time.
    Thinking about it some more, at least for me I think the bad interface and/or overstuffed D&D style ability set is a lot of my dislike of RTwP. I like Spellforce 1, 2 and 3 fine, which are flat out real time (though 3 adds a time slow when using the ability wheel) Tower of Time is pure RTwP (well, slow time again) Drakensang is straight up RTWP, and I enjoy the heck out of those games. But those all use much smaller, less fiddly sets of character abilities than Pathfinder or Neverwinter Nights 2, which means more of the games can be played sans pausing. This relative simplicity also keeps the interface itself easier to navigate, again, minimizing paising. The various iterations of Spellforce - which are also fully featured RTS games - put a lot of effort into making the interface as legible and flexible as possible, the end result is a very fast and powerful system. The end result of the D&D RTWP systems tends to be a lot of illegible pictograms about the size of a gnat's ass.
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    I hate realtime with pause and I hate that people distinguish it from realtime. What realtime game can you not pause? And I really hate the people who used to try to claim that it was basically the same as turn-based
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    I hate realtime with pause and I hate that people distinguish it from realtime. What realtime game can you not pause?
    Well, boxing, for one.
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    I hate realtime with pause and I hate that people distinguish it from realtime. What realtime game can you not pause? And I really hate the people who used to try to claim that it was basically the same as turn-based
    The difference is that in a game that's "just" real time, you typically can't do anything with the game while it's paused and it's designed to be used when you want to temporarily stop playing for some reason, while in RTWP game you can issue commands while paused and the game is designed with the assumption that you will do that. Whether you like RTWP or not, the difference is quite clear.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Also some RtWP games have an internal rounds clock which actually determine the rate at which things happen completely separate from any individual character's speeds or cooldowns.

    For example in BG1 if you cast a spell that takes 1 second to cast at the start of a round and then immediately order for it to be cast again, your wizard will wait 5 seconds then start casting, but if you cast it 4 seconds into a round and then immediately cast again they will only wait 1 second because they can cast once per round irrespective of how fast the casting time is.

    Knights of the Old Republic as well makes it super obvious that most of the attack animations are fake and not associated with an actual attack, because there's only actually one per six seconds.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Also some RtWP games have an internal rounds clock which actually determine the rate at which things happen completely separate from any individual character's speeds or cooldowns.

    For example in BG1 if you cast a spell that takes 1 second to cast at the start of a round and then immediately order for it to be cast again, your wizard will wait 5 seconds then start casting, but if you cast it 4 seconds into a round and then immediately cast again they will only wait 1 second because they can cast once per round irrespective of how fast the casting time is.

    Knights of the Old Republic as well makes it super obvious that most of the attack animations are fake and not associated with an actual attack, because there's only actually one per six seconds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    The difference is that in a game that's "just" real time, you typically can't do anything with the game while it's paused and it's designed to be used when you want to temporarily stop playing for some reason, while in RTWP game you can issue commands while paused and the game is designed with the assumption that you will do that. Whether you like RTWP or not, the difference is quite clear.
    Only some games where you can issue commands while paused are generally considered RTWP though. For example, city builders are NOT generally listed as RTWP
    Last edited by Bohandas; Today at 10:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Also some RtWP games have an internal rounds clock which actually determine the rate at which things happen completely separate from any individual character's speeds or cooldowns.

    For example in BG1 if you cast a spell that takes 1 second to cast at the start of a round and then immediately order for it to be cast again, your wizard will wait 5 seconds then start casting, but if you cast it 4 seconds into a round and then immediately cast again they will only wait 1 second because they can cast once per round irrespective of how fast the casting time is.

    Knights of the Old Republic as well makes it super obvious that most of the attack animations are fake and not associated with an actual attack, because there's only actually one per six seconds.
    This gets back to "There was never really a RtWP game made by a developer who was known for mechanical polish".

    Bioware was never particularly good at it. Using the D&D system helped, but Dragon Age: Origins' combat was mediocre in pretty much every way. When they moved into making more and more action-heavy games like Jade Empire and ME, they were third rate as action games. Obsidian has never been known for great combat systems either- they made a lot of games using other people's engines, and PoE's combat systems were just kind of alright. And trying to fit a combat system designed for tabletop (like pathfinder) into RtWP is kind of a kludge to begin with.

    Other than that, there just haven't been many games that have used it. When the party-based CRPG reawakening happened you had a lot of games being made on shoestring budgets by new/small teams that were struggling to even get across the finishing line (*cough* Tyranny *cough*) and turn-based systems were just easier to fall back on.

    A really good dedicated RtWP system would have to start with being more transparent about timing and allow for things like mages to power up spells and hold them to be cast the moment you want so that you aren't stuck hoping that everyone doesn't move by the time your fireball goes off.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    Only some games where you can issue commands while paused are generally considered RTWP though. For example, city builders are NOT generally listed as RTWP
    Sure, you also wouldn't list a city building game as "third person" despite the fact that they are typically from that perspective, since different terms are used for different kinds of games.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Basically the complaint seemed to be that they turned it into a Shaggy Dog story.
    And a bad shaggy dog story at that. It honestly would have worked better if it had been even more of a shaggy dog story and he met the mother in the very last scene completely apropos of nothing and with no further explanation.
    Last edited by Bohandas; Today at 11:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    And a bad shaggy dog story at that. It honestly would have worked better if it had been even more of a shaggy dog story and he met the mother in the very last scene completely apropos of nothing and with no further explanation.
    I mean, I really don't think it can be characterized as a shaggy dog story, to be honest. It can certainly be claimed that it's misleadingly named as it's not actually about how Ted met the Mother. But, literally the first episode is about Ted meeting Robin and the entire show is about their really messy relationship, realizing they don't work given their disparate goals in life, then coming back together later, after they've accomplished those goals. It's a lot of things, but "a plot with a high level of build-up and complicating action, only to be resolved with an anti-climax or ironic reversal, usually one that makes the entire story meaningless."

    I can mostly see how you can get there if you view the story as 'how he met the mother,' (though even then, I don't think it works, as that portion is quite well executed and I don't think the complaints are about the mother's illness/death, it's about Barney/Robin imploding and Robin/Ted coming back), but that's pretty transparently not the story they were actually telling, which is most obvious by the fact that the mother doesn't even show up until the last season, which almost all takes place over a tiny period of time.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    And a bad shaggy dog story at that.
    I'd argue that almost all shaggy dog stories are bad. Maybe personal taste is tainting that but I just generally find them lazy and hostile/insulting to the audience.

    The only one that I can name that actually does something with the payoff (beyond "Ha ha, **** you, you're not gonna get a resolution and you're stupid for wanting one") is Hadestown: as I mentioned a few pages ago in this thread, they find a way to convert that into saying something valuable about hope even in hopeless situations. And even for that one, it made me mad the first time before I'd really chewed on it and accepted the message of the story.

    But every other shaggy dog story I've seen has felt like some combination of "oh, I see, the author just gave up trying for a resolution" at best, and "oh, I see, the author thinks giving a middle finger to their audience makes them look cool and smart" at worst.

    EDIT: Having calmed down from my rant a touch, I'm considering some edge cases and wondering what other people think. I think if you stretched the definition, Cabin In The Woods and Spec Ops: The Line could both be considered shaggy dog stories if just going by the pure events of the plot -- though they don't really feel like it in the same way.

    EDIT: EDIT: Caveat that I'm noticing myself using "shaggy dog" interchangeably with "sad ending" which isn't really correct, but I think there's a certain quality of letdown or pointlessness in the three examples I listed here that connect them to the concept at least.
    Last edited by Ionathus; Today at 01:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I'd argue that almost all shaggy dog stories are bad. Maybe personal taste is tainting that but I just generally find them lazy and hostile/insulting to the audience.

    The only one that I can name that actually does something with the payoff (beyond "Ha ha, **** you, you're not gonna get a resolution and you're stupid for wanting one") is Hadestown: as I mentioned a few pages ago in this thread, they find a way to convert that into saying something valuable about hope even in hopeless situations. And even for that one, it made me mad the first time before I'd really chewed on it and accepted the message of the story.

    But every other shaggy dog story I've seen has felt like some combination of "oh, I see, the author just gave up trying for a resolution" at best, and "oh, I see, the author thinks giving a middle finger to their audience makes them look cool and smart" at worst.

    EDIT: Having calmed down from my rant a touch, I'm considering some edge cases and wondering what other people think. I think if you stretched the definition, Cabin In The Woods and Spec Ops: The Line could both be considered shaggy dog stories if just going by the pure events of the plot -- though they don't really feel like it in the same way.

    EDIT: EDIT: Caveat that I'm noticing myself using "shaggy dog" interchangeably with "sad ending" which isn't really correct, but I think there's a certain quality of "letdown" or "pointlessness" in the three examples I listed here that connect them to the concept at least.
    So I only had a passing familiarity with this term, so a "quick" deep dive later I feel more informed. The dreaded TVTropes listing was a primary resource.

    I think the issue with many of the films listed is the supposed purpose of the story (and I can understand why people would think any purpose other than the most obvious purpose is a "subversion" rather than a mistaken conclusion) is not the intended purpose. For instance, two of the examples that probably spawn a lot of conversation among likely GitP/OotS readers are Raiders and Last Crusade. People complain about both of these because the MacGuffin can't be had at the end of the movie...but the movies were never about "having", they were about "finding".

    I agree that people can mistake "the ending didn't go the protagonists way" with "shaggy dog"...the (literally) everybody loses ending of Cabin in the Woods is a good example, but I am right there with you on how it feels. Maybe more acceptable because it is at least horror-adjacent, and we're trained to accept "protagonists lose" in horror movies?

    This is likely becoming more of a rant on how TVTropes examples aren't actually examples...but suggesting the Mummy (Brenden version) is Shaggy Dog because Imhotep loses in the end stunningly misunderstands both the pulp conventions and the Universal conventions to reach this conclusion. Similarly, the inclusion of Hacksaw Ridge and Princess Bride suggesting that small arcs in the film make it reach the threshold to be a Shaggy Dog Story are unsupportable.

    What is the name for the trope where you're left to determine how you think the movie ends? *That* one to me is generally far worse than even the intended Shaggy Dog...and yet I also feel there are movies where it would have been better to leave us uncertain than to show us your answer (the original Pet Semetary film, for instance).

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    I liked ME 1 so much I'm never playing it again. I have very fond memories of it you see, and I also know that the first time I have to deal with the frankly D-tier shooting (even for its time) and the inventory, I'll overwrite all those happy feels with disappointment and frustration.
    Same. I didn't even finish it, but was very shocked...everyone else had apparently loved this game, and the inventory wheel nonsense was terrible, and the shooting mediocre at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    I mean...sort of? Like, to be clear, the ending, that the mother had been dead, was predicted extremely early on and remained a common prediction throughout. The mother was a major character in the last season, but only there and never spoke throughout this years long story, which led most people to assume she was either dead or dying.
    Well, the framing device in this got...a little weird the longer the show went on. The show itself occasionally pokes fun at it, but much of the show is...not appropriate, or not even vaguely focused and rambling. Ultimately, the show worked pretty well as a sitcom, but the basic premise of it as something else never really fit it at all well.

    I liked chunks of the show well enough, but it almost works better as a show that isn't about anything, because it's not really about the mother, and Ted's not that amazing of a person either if you stop and think about it for a second.

    I suspect the show got away from them, and ended up with more seasons than they anticipated.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I'd argue that almost all shaggy dog stories are bad. Maybe personal taste is tainting that but I just generally find them lazy and hostile/insulting to the audience.
    It works well with novelty songs. Weird Al's song Albuquerque is pretty good
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Last year I read a trilogy that ended with the protagonist erasing her memory of the entire trilogy. This sort of made the story pointless from one perspective, but was an extremely effective, albeit completely emotionally devastating, ending. I don't know if that qualifies as 'Shaggy Dog' or not, but it was definitely good. Satisfying, no, but I'm less and less convinced narrative satisfaction should be a requirement for anything.
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