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  1. - Top - End - #661
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Yodel Goblin is amazing. Thank you for introducing me to this, I am overjoyed to have discovered it!

  2. - Top - End - #662
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Yodel Goblin is amazing. Thank you for introducing me to this, I am overjoyed to have discovered it!
    No problem. Glad you liked it.

  3. - Top - End - #663
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Yodel Goblin is amazing. Thank you for introducing me to this, I am overjoyed to have discovered it!
    I find them way funnier than they have any right to be too, raising awareness is the least one can do for the poor sods! (And yes, yodeling would probably render me shaken as well, so that tracks.)

  4. - Top - End - #664
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I was joking on the typo of "love action".
    If there is one thing I have learned here it is that joking is clearly and definitively not allowed.

    Especially not jokes about Elton John getting a treadmill for his pet rabbit.

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  5. - Top - End - #665
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    I think Gale came off worse in earlier versions of the game. He was never as bad as Lae'zel, Astarion and Shadowheart morally, but the ways in which he was unlikable were a lot more mundane. I've never met someone like Shadowheart or Astarion, but I've known a few Gales.
    I've definitely met all of those three types in my life. It's probably why I so viscerally dislike the BG3 companions. They remind me of some of the worst "friends" I've ever had.

    Doesn't fit the thread because I'm not surprised at all to be in the minority, but I didn't like BG3. Doesn't feel like the old BG games in tone or scope, the main plot hook is shallow, and the changes made to 5E - already a ruleset I have complaints about - destroy the difficulty curve. I knew I wouldn't like it going in, though, since I don't like any of Larian's games.
    Last edited by ArmyOfOptimists; 2024-06-10 at 12:18 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #666
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth View Post
    EDIT: And speaking of Game of Thrones:

    I gave up on the first book. It should have hit all the points that I want in a story, but somehow managed to miss all of them. It is undeniably a good, well-written story and deserved the praise it gets, but it utterly failed to engage with me, to the extent that I gave up reading about a third of the way through. Anyone who knows me will understand exactly how rare that is - I have possibly failed to finish one other book in my life. The most annoying part of it is that I don't know why - everything about the story should have engaged me, but none of it did.
    Huh. That is strange. I found the first book quite engaging. Interesting world, some decent politicing and character buiding. Some twists, etc. IMO, it was a pretty darn excellent book to start off a series.

    Book two was still pretty decent. Movement on the plots introduced in the first book. Followed each of the characters in logical ways, and progressed the whole conflicts nicely.

    For me, while there were slight hints of it in the second book, it was in the third that I really started to get a "this is going off the rails" feel. And maybe not even going off the rails so much as "he's still introducing a lot more stuff, which means a lot more books to resolve even half of it". And yeah, books 4 and 5 were so bogged down with additional details and side stuff that it really got ridiculous.

    And IMO, the core problem was that Martin got so into the politics and history and characters/groups of Westeros, and just really wanted to delve into it all (which I can't blame him for honestly), that the "trigger event" in his broader story (Dany returning to Westeros with dragons and army) had to keep being pushed back, and back, and back. That in turn created a huge pacing problem (which, again, really became obvious in 4 and 5). Several people have commented that the Essos bits really feel like stretched out filler. And that's because... they really are. He needed to come up with something that was occupying Dany while all of the "cool stuff" he was enjoying writing about was going on in Westeros. But the Essos stuff, since it was always intended to just be backdrop, just never really came alive. Which made for balance problems in addition to the pacing problems.

    But honestly? The first couple books were fine IMO. I didn't get the feeling of too much bloat to manage until later on (and it's been a while, but it felt like book 3 to me, but I could be remembering wrong).

  7. - Top - End - #667
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyOfOptimists View Post
    Doesn't fit the thread because I'm not surprised at all to be in the minority, but I didn't like BG3. Doesn't feel like the old BG games in tone or scope, the main plot hook is shallow, and the changes made to 5E - already a ruleset I have complaints about - destroy the difficulty curve. I knew I wouldn't like it going in, though, since I don't like any of Larian's games.
    You're in the minority, but despite what the internet would have you think, you're not alone. Some days I think there needs to be a support group for people who like RPGs but don't like Larian.

    Oh, adding my minority view that I was surprised by: Pillars of Eternity 1 is better than Deadfire, and it's not even close. I don't understand why people like Deadfire at all, let alone think it's a better game.
    Last edited by MinimanMidget; 2024-06-10 at 06:54 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #668
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Hey, I'm always down to blame the publisher, don't get me wrong! I do think that reader expectations are contributing to this too, though. I can't tell you how many times I've seen or heard people wish for a follow-up or "one more season" in a work that ended perfectly.
    What about series where the creators were just needlessly hell-bent on having an ending? Gravity Falls and Amphibia could still be running today if the creators would have just stuck to the format of season 1

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Thing is, it's not a play either. It's not even really a musical.

    It's a dance show. Every part of the value beyond just listening to the soundtrack is the human physicality and choreography, which is inherently given that value by happening in physical space*.
    The soundtrack is the heart and soul of the work. If the stage show doesn't translate to a movie then maybe a movie adaptation should directly adapt Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats and to hell with the stage show

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    It's also character-centric, every single song except Memory is an "I Am" song
    What about Journey to the Heaviside Layer?

    EDIT:
    and The Naming of Cats and Invitation to the Jellicle Ball
    Last edited by Bohandas; 2024-06-10 at 11:11 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #669
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by MinimanMidget View Post
    Oh, adding my minority view that I was surprised by: Pillars of Eternity 1 is better than Deadfire, and it's not even close. I don't understand why people like Deadfire at all, let alone think it's a better game.
    I've struggled to get through Pillars 1 and thus haven't really done Deadfire, but I gotta say Turn Based mode sounds real good when you're stuck in a RTWP game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    What about series where the creators were just needlessly hell-bent on having an ending? Gravity Falls and Amphibia could still be running today if the creators would have just stuck to the format of season 1
    As I recall both of those shows planned for a three season run because that's what they expected the network to give them. Gravity Falls rushed because production was apparently pretty draining and Hirsch wasn't up for doing two more seasons

  10. - Top - End - #670
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by MinimanMidget View Post
    Oh, adding my minority view that I was surprised by: Pillars of Eternity 1 is better than Deadfire, and it's not even close. I don't understand why people like Deadfire at all, let alone think it's a better game.
    If the majority opinion is that Deadfire is better, I suppose we can add this to my list, too. I like both of them, but I do think the first game is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    I've struggled to get through Pillars 1 and thus haven't really done Deadfire, but I gotta say Turn Based mode sounds real good when you're stuck in a RTWP game.
    This reminds me of another one. I've been surprised to see how many people (at least on these boards, I don't know if it's a general thing) don't like RTWP. While not a good fit for every game, I definitely think it has its place in some (mostly since it's more flexible than either real time or turn based).

  11. - Top - End - #671
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    This reminds me of another one. I've been surprised to see how many people (at least on these boards, I don't know if it's a general thing) don't like RTWP. While not a good fit for every game, I definitely think it has its place in some (mostly since it's more flexible than either real time or turn based).
    I think Turn Based is winning in the modern sphere. RTWP works for some games (FTL is great, for example) but I generally prefer Turn Based.

  12. - Top - End - #672
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    This reminds me of another one. I've been surprised to see how many people (at least on these boards, I don't know if it's a general thing) don't like RTWP. While not a good fit for every game, I definitely think it has its place in some (mostly since it's more flexible than either real time or turn based).
    Unfortunately, there haven't been very many good RTWP games to hold up the standard. PoE was one of the few, but even it has the problem that when the fights get tough and you want fine control it's often hard to get spells and abilities off when you want them. PoE's combat isn't bad, but it's not as good as Pathfinder: Kingmaker or Wrath of the Righteous.

    I'd love to see a studio that was really, really good at mechanical polish give it a shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by MinimanMidget View Post
    You're in the minority, but despite what the internet would have you think, you're not alone. Some days I think there needs to be a support group for people who like RPGs but don't like Larian.
    I loved the last two Divinity games, but story was absolutely not their strong point, and most of what I've heard about BG3 makes me less than excited about picking it up. It sound a lot more like late-era Bioware dating-simulator-masquerading-as-RPG than the mechanics-heavy RPG Larian was actually good at making. Maybe I'll try it one day, but Owlcat did such a fantastic job of scratching the classic CRPG itch that I'll probably play through Wrath of the Righteous again first.
    Last edited by BloodSquirrel; 2024-06-11 at 06:20 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #673
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    But honestly? The first couple books were fine IMO. I didn't get the feeling of too much bloat to manage until later on (and it's been a while, but it felt like book 3 to me, but I could be remembering wrong).
    Also a planning issue. It's moderately famous for that in the concerned fan circles online.

    Originally, when Martin proposed it to the publishers, A Song of Ice and Fire was a trilogy. Consisting of the current first and second book and the as yet not even started seventh book, with everything in books 3-6 either happening in those three books or during time skips. An outline of what those books would have looked like is online.

    Then Martin wrote book 1 and got lost in the weeds a bit, so it became five books. Then after book 3, book four got split into two more books because it got too long, and then it became clear he couldn't finish it with just one more book after that either, so he changed it to seven books.

    And yet, there's not actually that much more major overall plot happening than proposed in the original outline. All the originally proposed main characters (Jon Snow, Daenerys, Arya, Sansa, Bran) are on the same trajectory. Just a lot more worldbuilding, politicking and side characters. Which I like, but it's a very clear sign that Martin wandered off into his garden and forgot the plot.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2024-06-11 at 06:52 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #674
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by MinimanMidget View Post
    Oh, adding my minority view that I was surprised by: Pillars of Eternity 1 is better than Deadfire, and it's not even close. I don't understand why people like Deadfire at all, let alone think it's a better game.
    I'd broardly agree here. Like Deadfire has a more interesting class&ability system from a character-build standpoint and the turn-based mode can make for a nice change of pace (even if it does kind of make the game even easier in a lot of instances), but overall I just found it rather lacking. It really suffers from scope creep, the entire ship management and naval combat systems are superfluous, the split in party members between 'companions' and 'sidekicks' (partially a result of upper management insisting on the game having full voice acting "because that's what Larian are doing") undermines its supposed character focus and the overal plot and pacing just feels fragmented.
    It's also not helped by ~2/3rds of the writing team from the first game (including pillars 1's narrative) either not having been involved or only present in a limited capacity. I'm not going to pretend that Pillars 1 was a narrative masterpiece, but it did by and large hit what is aiming at consistently, even it does run into the usual Euromedieval Fantasy problem of underutilising/side-lining its more distinct aspects in favour of just more 'adventuring party stuff'. Deadfire though just feels inconsistent (and is even worse on the under-utilisation front) and the overall tonal shift doesn't really help matters. Now, there were people who found Pillars 1's fairly grim overal tone to be off-putting, so I can understand if they found Deadfire's lighter, quip-heavy approach more to their liking, but I think that kind of works against some of what Deadfire's main plot is, given that is has (supposedly) high stakes but at the same time isn't taking things all that seriously.


    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat
    This reminds me of another one. I've been surprised to see how many people (at least on these boards, I don't know if it's a general thing) don't like RTWP. While not a good fit for every game, I definitely think it has its place in some (mostly since it's more flexible than either real time or turn based).
    RTWP in RPGs is kind of a product of a specific time period, tbh. It started during the height of the RTS genre and its first major implementation was the original Baldur's Gate, which was low-level 2nd ed. AD&D where combat was generally pretty limited in terms of what actions a given character was able to take, so the real-time function would usually make things flow-faster without too much in the way of trade-offs. It also then gets integrated into Bioware's Infinity and Aurora engines (hence why it still shows-up in things like the first Witcher game), which then carry-it into the 2000s (possibly assisted by the then-prevailing attitude that turn-based combat was 'outdated' for video games) long enough for it to just stick.
    Its limitations there have become increasingly apparent as RPG combat design has moved more towards given all characters more to do at a given time though. I'd agree there's still uses for it in some games, but I don't know if it really offers that much to RPGs at this point.

  15. - Top - End - #675
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mx.Silver View Post
    RTWP in RPGs is kind of a product of a specific time period, tbh. It started during the height of the RTS genre and its first major implementation was the original Baldur's Gate, which was low-level 2nd ed. AD&D where combat was generally pretty limited in terms of what actions a given character was able to take, so the real-time function would usually make things flow-faster without too much in the way of trade-offs. It also then gets integrated into Bioware's Infinity and Aurora engines (hence why it still shows-up in things like the first Witcher game), which then carry-it into the 2000s (possibly assisted by the then-prevailing attitude that turn-based combat was 'outdated' for video games) long enough for it to just stick.
    Its limitations there have become increasingly apparent as RPG combat design has moved more towards given all characters more to do at a given time though. I'd agree there's still uses for it in some games, but I don't know if it really offers that much to RPGs at this point.
    I think it's also a matter of player preferences. Some players always want to control every single action of every single party member in which case, yeah, anything but turn-based will be cumbersome at best. But then there are players like me, who for some combat situations prefer to control one character at a time and rely on pre-set tactics for the rest (meaning combat goes quite a bit faster than if everything was turn-based), while in other combat situations pausing enough that it's close to turn-based since I want/need more control. There are games where I would never want anything but turn-based (Imagine trying to play XCOM with even little bit of real time. ), but for a lot of them I like the flexibilty of RTWP.

  16. - Top - End - #676
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    I think it's also a matter of player preferences. Some players always want to control every single action of every single party member in which case, yeah, anything but turn-based will be cumbersome at best. But then there are players like me, who for some combat situations prefer to control one character at a time and rely on pre-set tactics for the rest (meaning combat goes quite a bit faster than if everything was turn-based), while in other combat situations pausing enough that it's close to turn-based since I want/need more control. There are games where I would never want anything but turn-based (Imagine trying to play XCOM with even little bit of real time. ), but for a lot of them I like the flexibilty of RTWP.
    RTWP solves a big problem that turn-based games have, which is that they can become a slog due to even minor fights becoming time-consuming exercises in cycling through rote attacks. With RTWP, if you don't need to pause to exact fine control, you don't have to.

    Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous has a RTWP mode that is utter inadequate for the game's tougher fights (pausing isn't enough- you need the fine control over precise order of actions) but does let you power through minor fights that don't matter much.

  17. - Top - End - #677
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    RTwP works pretty well for games with slow or simple enough combat that you mostly don't have to pause, or else super technical tactics stuff that has different reload times depending on whether you put your spare magazine in your pocket, belt, or tactical vest, and no turn based system can provide enough granularity to capture that.

    Neither of these cases really applies to modern CRPGs. Once you get a few levels and a full party, combat gets stupid complex, but it isn't enormously granular in time. The supposed major advantage of fast trash fights to me always feels like the game going "we're so bad at pacing and encounter design we implemented this kludgy mess of a control scheme so getting through these ten featureless rooms each containing two orcs doesn't drive you crazy." The problem isn't how long the dumb pointless trash fights take, the problem is the dumb pointless trash fights.

    This is to say nothing of complex terrain, flanking or other positional rules, or dealing with friendly fire and fireballs. All of which turn based games make vastly less painful because you don't have to deal with the character AI and speed-reading the interface, because the character AI is usually really bad and the interface woefully inadequate (Wrath of the Righteous gets bonus demerits here for awful borimg repetitive encounter design, and by having both RTwP and TB modes, an interface that sucks for both.)
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

  18. - Top - End - #678
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Neither of these cases really applies to modern CRPGs. Once you get a few levels and a full party, combat gets stupid complex, but it isn't enormously granular in time. The supposed major advantage of fast trash fights to me always feels like the game going "we're so bad at pacing and encounter design we implemented this kludgy mess of a control scheme so getting through these ten featureless rooms each containing two orcs doesn't drive you crazy." The problem isn't how long the dumb pointless trash fights take, the problem is the dumb pointless trash fights.
    Sure, but in my experience there's a middle-ground between "pointless trash fights" and "massively complex fights where I need to control everything all the time", where RTWP is very useful (I also think it's quite useful even for the more complex fights a lot of the time, but YMMV).

  19. - Top - End - #679
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Neither of these cases really applies to modern CRPGs. Once you get a few levels and a full party, combat gets stupid complex, but it isn't enormously granular in time. The supposed major advantage of fast trash fights to me always feels like the game going "we're so bad at pacing and encounter design we implemented this kludgy mess of a control scheme so getting through these ten featureless rooms each containing two orcs doesn't drive you crazy." The problem isn't how long the dumb pointless trash fights take, the problem is the dumb pointless trash fights.
    That's completely backwards. Having every single fight be a major battle is poor pacing. Part of being an RPG is supposed to be that it has more organic encounter design, and part of that is having short encounters, or fights that are brief and easy because, narratively speaking, they should be. Having every dungeon be exactly one room with a 2-hour long fight reduces the entire concept of "dungeon" to "backdrop for a battle". I don't just want to play a string of battles, I want to play an RPG.

    Turn-based systems just can't do "quick, easy" fights well. They're built to trade-off fluidity for precise control and require some hand-off between the "normal" mode of real-time walking around and the turned-based mode. RTWP can have every party member attack at once for an enemy that doesn't require much more than 1-2 rounds of basic attacks/spells.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSquirrel View Post
    RTWP solves a big problem that turn-based games have, which is that they can become a slog due to even minor fights becoming time-consuming exercises in cycling through rote attacks. With RTWP, if you don't need to pause to exact fine control, you don't have to.
    .
    I've long believed that more games should have an auto-resolve combat button. And that you should be able to press that button at any point during a battle, to mop up the rest of the remaining enemies off-screen if it's getting tedious. One goblin left, but he's four turns of walking away? Press "finish combat" and the game resolves the inevitable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    What about series where the creators were just needlessly hell-bent on having an ending? Gravity Falls and Amphibia could still be running today if the creators would have just stuck to the format of season 1
    I've not seen either of these works, but it sounds like you didn't like the way their finales landed? I don't know if continuing the series for years would have solved that -- very few things maintain quality across that amount of time.

    The soundtrack is the heart and soul of the work. If the stage show doesn't translate to a movie then maybe a movie adaptation should directly adapt Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats and to hell with the stage show
    Agreed. The dancing and stage movement is the star of the show, but the music and the singing is a close second. It's not Cats without the soundtrack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    This reminds me of another one. I've been surprised to see how many people (at least on these boards, I don't know if it's a general thing) don't like RTWP. While not a good fit for every game, I definitely think it has its place in some (mostly since it's more flexible than either real time or turn based).
    Baldur's Gate II was my first "real" RPG and I love it to death, but I can see why RTWP never truly caught on in the mainstream. I see it as a transitional step, from back before your party member AI was decent enough to not charge out and get themselves killed in two seconds every time (still working on that one, TBF). It made the tactical fights in BG a hell of a lot of fun, and it made short fights manageable. You don't run into the problem of late-game turnbased RPGs like Final Fantasy, where you already know you're going to kill the weak random encounter that attacked but the turn-based system is a chore to go through the motions.

    I didn't find it very intuitive in full-3D, though. Having played isometric in Baldur's Gate, KotOR was a kludgy mess. Trying to mix over-the-shoulder 3rd-person and individually taking command of each teammate with RTWP was incredibly unintuitive, at least for me. RTWP makes sense if you have a bird's-eye view of the whole battlefield and want to be the tactician. It should be an extension of RTS games, where you're the commanding officer of multiple units.

    If you want the up-close-and-personal action of being a cool person fighting a monster, removing the turn-based trappings makes more sense to me.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Turn based games do encounters of different sizes and complexities to create nicely variated pacing just fine. They do it all the time. Solasta does it, the modern Wastelands do it, Baldur's Gate 3 does it. It's not like turn based tactics is entirely, or even substantially, made up of games consisting only of super high intensity boss battles and white knuckle fights - I feel like I'd have noticed if they did, because I'm lazy about gaming, not great at games, and I play a lot of turn based stuff. They have easy battles and hard battles and the occasional real nail biter, with most fights landing in the middle, just like you expect.

    They may generally drop the very low end trivial encounters, but fine, great, if I have to put zero thought or effort into it, I'd rather not have it there anyway. I guess absolutely massacring room after room of completely outclassed enemies isn't really a key part of my RPG experience.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I've long believed that more games should have an auto-resolve combat button. And that you should be able to press that button at any point during a battle, to mop up the rest of the remaining enemies off-screen if it's getting tedious. One goblin left, but he's four turns of walking away? Press "finish combat" and the game resolves the inevitable.
    That's still kind of a kludge that is needed to fix a problem that a real-time action game wouldn't have. Mopping up the remaining enemies after a big fight should be cathartic, not tedious.

    There are more possible elegant solutions. I've long wanted to create an RPG system where instead of hitpoints you had "momentum" or "advantage", with the conceit being that you weren't actually being hit over and over again and losing actual health, but your defenses were being degraded by a combination of fatigue, positioning, morale, or having to face multiple enemies. Once you actually get hit, you'll be either severely wounded or killed.

    In that kind of system, the "one goblin left" would basically have zero defense and die in one hit. The overall effect would be less "I need to hit each of the enemies 10 times" and more "I need to stack advantages until I can break part of their defensive line, at which point I'll start dropping them and the whole thing will unravel".

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Turn based games do encounters of different sizes and complexities to create nicely variated pacing just fine.
    So does RTWP, since what constitutes "just fine" ultimately comes down to subjective opinion. I don't mind people preferring turn-based combat I do it myself in some games I was just surprised how many people seemed to dislike it (and occasionally act as if their preferred system is somehow the inherently superior choice).

  25. - Top - End - #685
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    So does RTWP, since what constitutes "just fine" ultimately comes down to subjective opinion. I don't mind people preferring turn-based combat I do it myself in some games I was just surprised how many people seemed to dislike it (and occasionally act as if their preferred system is somehow the inherently superior choice).
    I think the reason people dislike it is that the pause bit feels basically like a kludge to get around the deficiencies of the interface for letting you play fully in real time. Basically it turns the primary interaction with the game into a small but constant annoyance where I either try to deal with the indifferent to bad interface* and frequently atrocious AI and play in real time, or else hammer space bar constantly so I can either do what I want, or keep the AI from running through an active volcano to kill a goblin halfway across the map. That just feels like me doing work because the devs made some basic features of the game a PITA to actually use. Or I set up super liberal auto-pause, at which point I'm hammering space bar again because the game is auto-pausing when I don't want it to and I'm back to wrestling with the interface. Either way, I'm trading more annoying play for better play, and I don't really like that.

    My general goal in a videogame is for the interface to become an invisible membrane I interact through but am seldom consciously aware of. A turn based game can achieve this by decent design and removing time pressure. A good RTS does it with unit AI, sensible ability design, good hot keys and the explicit design constraint that your interaction is the most important resource so how to spend it is a skill. RTwP kinda wimps out on all of these, gestures lamely, and suggests I hit space bar a lot.

    *This is not helped by a lot of RTwP games adapting D&D or similar systems, which for a videogame have way too many functionally redundant abilities and options for those abilities and modifiers for the options. Even a very good general interface design is going to struggle with combining metamagic and upcasting and multi-targeting a spell in one interface that can be used in real time. Which is why games actually meant to be played in real time dont have stuff like this. But a D&D game needs to, or the fans get bent out of shape because twinned acid arrow in a 3rd level slot doesnt work right.
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  26. - Top - End - #686
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Well, yeah, a bad interface is bad and annoying, that's true whether you're playing turn-based, RTWP or real time.

    EDIT: Oh! That makes me think of one I don't think I've mentioned so far. I was really expecting to love Planescape: Torment, since pretty much everyone does and everything I hear about it sounds awesome. But I found the interface so annoying I've never been able to get very far into it.
    Last edited by Batcathat; 2024-06-11 at 10:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by MinimanMidget View Post
    Some days I think there needs to be a support group for people who like RPGs but don't like Larian.
    I don't think anyone's done as much as Larian to make CRPGs accessible. This means they can be a turnoff for people who are really into the genre. As someone who's grown old and feebleminded I'm really chill with it but I get it if people aren't. Another very accessible CRPG I love is Spellforce 3, which is also an RTS, and also might be the most simple CRPG I've ever played.
    Ceika made my avatar over a decade ago and the link has expired since, but people should still appreciate their work.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    What does RTWP mean?

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    What does RTWP mean?
    Real Time With Pause.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by pita View Post
    I don't think anyone's done as much as Larian to make CRPGs accessible.
    I feel like this should very much be a "standing on the shoulders of giants" take.
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