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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Mordar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    I like rich people with masks.
    Me too - especially the opening of Act II of Phantom. Probably my favorite bit of rich people with masks ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Batman is a singular rich person with a mask, not multiple masked rich people
    No, Batman is a singular vigilante hero with a rich person mask.

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  2. - Top - End - #782
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Batman, Robin, Batwoman, Black Mask, etc etc.
    Aside from Batman none of those are Batman

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    No, Batman is a singular vigilante hero with a rich person mask.
    So a rich person with two masks then?
    Last edited by Errorname; 2024-06-21 at 01:14 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #783
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Aside from Batman none of those are Batman



    So a rich person with two masks then?
    Batman would say the cowl is his real face.

    Anyway, that corre tion is fascinating to me partly for sounding silly but mostly for being wrong. I know for sure at least one Robin has been Batman, and I think there was one arc where the others were Batman too, when Bruce was unavailable, to help maintain the idea Bruce was still helping.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  4. - Top - End - #784
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Batman would say the cowl is his real face.
    Perhaps metaphorically, but it is literally a mask

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Anyway, that corre tion is fascinating to me partly for sounding silly but mostly for being wrong
    Well, it's silly on purpose, but I stand by it.

    I'll recognize two 'real' Batmans, Bruce and Terry, and Terry's on thin ice. Everyone else is a pretender

  5. - Top - End - #785
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Aside from Batman none of those are Batman
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Anyway, that corre tion is fascinating to me partly for sounding silly but mostly for being wrong. I know for sure at least one Robin has been Batman, and I think there was one arc where the others were Batman too, when Bruce was unavailable, to help maintain the idea Bruce was still helping.
    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    I'll recognize two 'real' Batmans, Bruce and Terry, and Terry's on thin ice. Everyone else is a pretender
    Even then, Batman is both a character and a title or IP or what have you, the latter being about rich people in masks, one of whom is the former, so…

  6. - Top - End - #786
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Mordar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Perhaps metaphorically, but it is literally a mask

    Well, it's silly on purpose, but I stand by it.

    I'll recognize two 'real' Batmans, Bruce and Terry, and Terry's on thin ice. Everyone else is a pretender
    Azrael? **** (Sorry, Richard)?

    Fill-ins, perhaps, or better yet "Interim Batmen".

    - M
    Last edited by Mordar; 2024-06-21 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Bleeped out name
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  7. - Top - End - #787
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Aside from Batman none of those are Batman
    But all can and have appeared in media titled "Batman".
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

  8. - Top - End - #788
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    Fill-ins, perhaps, or better yet "Interim Batmen".
    Both examples better known for other mantles, in the case of Azrael he is explicitly an inadequate successor and both D*ck and J*s*n have multiple better known personas

  9. - Top - End - #789
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Both examples better known for other mantles, in the case of Azrael he is explicitly an inadequate successor and both D*ck and J*s*n have multiple better known personas
    True that they were better known as not-Batman, but I still hold they were Batmen pro temp and must still qualify.

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  10. - Top - End - #790
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    So, a bit late, but it is so weird that tvtropes and wikipedia have such drastically different definitions of what a shaggy dog story is.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  11. - Top - End - #791
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    So, a bit late, but it is so weird that tvtropes and wikipedia have such drastically different definitions of what a shaggy dog story is.
    I'm not tracking a major difference in definitions?

    "a shaggy-dog story or yarn is an extremely long-winded anecdote characterized by extensive narration of typically irrelevant incidents and terminated by an anticlimax. In other words, it is a long story that is intended to be amusing and that has an intentionally silly or meaningless ending." Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaggy_dog_story)

    "A "Shaggy Dog" Story is a plot with a high level of build-up and complicating action, only to be resolved with an anti-climax or ironic reversal, usually one that makes the entire story meaningless. " Tvtropes (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...ShaggyDogStory)

    Honestly, these seem quite similar to me? What difference are you seeing?

  12. - Top - End - #792
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    TV Tropes version is a normal storyline with anticlimax while Wikipedia's definition imply it's a nonsense from the beginning.

  13. - Top - End - #793
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    TV Tropes version is a normal storyline with anticlimax while Wikipedia's definition imply it's a nonsense from the beginning.
    I mean, its nonsense in the context of the impending anticlimax, but its not like, an incomprehensible story from the get-go or anything like that.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  14. - Top - End - #794
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    TVTropes is predisposed to terminology drift, since it's built around a mission to categorize every trope and storytelling convention in existence and list its examples. Lots and lots and lots of people trying to fit square pegs into round holes and all that. Almost all examples on that page are not actual examples of the original term, even if some of them provoke the same outrage/exasperation with their climax.

    The original definition is usually meant to be a conversational prank: you hold your audience hostage with the promise of a resolution that never comes. It can be a story told over a campfire etc., but usually you tell it under the premise of telling a joke and promising "the payoff is worth it."

    My family had a very similar one, a twenty-minute (minimum) story about The Upside Down Pyramid that involves childhood friends exploring a crypt and a "box with legs" chasing them, killing them one by one, no explanation or information given. The finale is the last surviving explorer cornered in his bathroom, throwing a glass bottle at the "box", and it freezes in place never to move again. Zoom in on the shattered fragments of the bottle held together by the adhesive on its label: "Robitussin Xtra Strength Cough Syrup: It'll Stop Your Coffin!"
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2024-06-24 at 10:13 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #795
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    My family had a very similar one, a twenty-minute (minimum) story about The Upside Down Pyramid that involves childhood friends exploring a crypt and a "box with legs" chasing them, killing them one by one, no explanation or information given. The finale is the last surviving explorer cornered in his bathroom, throwing a glass bottle at the "box", and it freezes in place never to move again. Zoom in on the shattered fragments of the bottle held together by the adhesive on its label: "Robitussin Xtra Strength Cough Syrup: It'll Stop Your Coffin!"
    If someone subjected me to a full-length version of this, I must admit I'm unsure whether I would buy them a drink or punch them in the face. Possibly both.

    And yeah, TV Trope definitions can definitely slide a bit, even if it feels like they've gotten better about it.

  16. - Top - End - #796
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    If someone subjected me to a full-length version of this, I must admit I'm unsure whether I would buy them a drink or punch them in the face. Possibly both.
    Nobody's punched me yet! Granted, I haven't done it as an adult very much (and when I do, I'm usually telling it to, like, my child cousins, who either cannot or will not punch me )

    And yeah, TV Trope definitions can definitely slide a bit, even if it feels like they've gotten better about it.
    Oof, I feel you. I think I missed the worst of it, but I know before a recent purge there were entire pages of people listing "trope examples" that were just fans of a work gushing about their favorite coolest moments.

    And that's even without getting into the completely useless subjective pages like "Crowning Moment of Awesome" (a title that exudes peak 2012-ish internet language all on its own)

  17. - Top - End - #797
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    I heard a version of the coffin story at a Cub Scout campout long ago :)

    Isaac Asimov also did one that was, in the preface or after-notes, referred to as a Shaggy Dog story. In the distant future, the world is ruled by Atlantis, a high-tech flying city. The police/enforcers are Amazonian soldiers known as the Waves - I don't recall why. There's a big event with a lot of extra traffic at the city, and someone feeds info to the leadership that a major terrorist attack or something might happen. They call in all the soldiers. The weight of the soldiers and their flying craft is too much for the gravity control machinery of the city, and the equipment fails catastrophically.
    Once again, Atlantis sinks beneath the Waves.

    Until this thread, I've always thought a Shaggy Dog story was just one that was a long build up to a moderately amusing pun or wordplay, versus being completely meaningless.
    Last edited by J-H; 2024-06-24 at 12:16 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #798
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    Isaac Asimov also did one that was, in the preface or after-notes, referred to as a Shaggy Dog story. In the distant future, the world is ruled by Atlantis, a high-tech flying city. The police/enforcers are Amazonian soldiers known as the Waves - I don't recall why. There's a big event with a lot of extra traffic at the city, and someone feeds info to the leadership that a major terrorist attack or something might happen. They call in all the soldiers. The weight of the soldiers and their flying craft is too much for the gravity control machinery of the city, and the equipment fails catastrophically.
    Once again, Atlantis sinks beneath the Waves.

    Until this thread, I've always thought a Shaggy Dog story was just one that was a long build up to a moderately amusing pun or wordplay, versus being completely meaningless.
    Speaking of TV Tropes, their article on Asimov has an entire little section about stories he wrote along those lines (apparently it's called a "feghoot"), so it's safe to say he loved those. One of them is even called "Shah Guido G", which kinda makes me want to punch Isaac Asimov in the face...

  19. - Top - End - #799
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Spoiler: My favorite Shaggy Dog story
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    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

  20. - Top - End - #800
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    And that's even without getting into the completely useless subjective pages like "Crowning Moment of Awesome" (a title that exudes peak 2012-ish internet language all on its own)
    It feels like exceeding important context to know that TVTropes originated as a Buffy the Vampire Slayer fansite back in the day, which I think explains a lot of their linguistic tendencies.

  21. - Top - End - #801
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    To be fair to TVTropes, they have since moved Moment of Awesome to the Sugar Wiki, which is explicitly for gushing about things you like even if nobody else does. You can only find it if you go looking for it.

  22. - Top - End - #802
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    Until this thread, I've always thought a Shaggy Dog story was just one that was a long build up to a moderately amusing pun or wordplay, versus being completely meaningless.
    When I think of a shaggy dog story, this is what usually comes to mind.

  23. - Top - End - #803
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Is The Wizard of Oz a shaggy dog story? (the film version, I mean)

    What about Edgar Allan Poe's novel Arthur Gordon Pym?
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    which IIRC ends with the narrator having a heart attack before he can finish telling the story
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  24. - Top - End - #804
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Wizard of Oz is a story about character growth. Even though everything was All Just A Dream, the growth remains.

    A shaggy dog story has to be TRULY pointless. If we went through the movie and Dorothy woke up right as she was about to pull the Wizard's curtain aside, then it might count.

    The point of a shaggy dog story is there is no point, and arguably not even a STORY at all. It's just a series of events that happen, at best instigated by a specific event but never with any meaningful resolution or even narrative theming
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2024-06-25 at 04:08 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #805
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    Is The Wizard of Oz a shaggy dog story? (the film version, I mean)

    What about Edgar Allan Poe's novel Arthur Gordon Pym?
    Spoiler
    Show
    which IIRC ends with the narrator having a heart attack before he can finish telling the story
    I wouldn't really say so. Even if you accept that it was all a dream, the film opens with Dorothy trying to run away, having her dream adventure, and being so happy to wake up at home that she realizes she took her family for granted. The events of the movie may not have been real, but they taught a lesson anyway. Though there's maybe a small shaggy element in the reveal that she had the way home on her feet the whole time. That plays into the dream theme, since we all have a way home out of our dreams just by waking up.

    If it was an actual shaggy dog story, she'd have killed the witch and the Wizard would've been like, "What witch? Those don't exist." and sent her away.

  26. - Top - End - #806
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyOfOptimists View Post
    I wouldn't really say so. Even if you accept that it was all a dream, the film opens with Dorothy trying to run away, having her dream adventure, and being so happy to wake up at home that she realizes she took her family for granted. The events of the movie may not have been real, but they taught a lesson anyway. Though there's maybe a small shaggy element in the reveal that she had the way home on her feet the whole time. That plays into the dream theme, since we all have a way home out of our dreams just by waking up.

    If it was an actual shaggy dog story, she'd have killed the witch and the Wizard would've been like, "What witch? Those don't exist." and sent her away.
    To be fair to the movie, only learning that she can use the slippers to get home happens in the almost last chapter of the book. I agree that a lot of the story is about personal growth vs the appearance of growth. So the scarecrow (who in the book starts out a single day old) is getting smarter through the whole story. And the Tinman is trying his best to be kind (albeit with sometimes weird results) and the lion being more a coward in his own mind than in fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
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  27. - Top - End - #807
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    I heard a version of the coffin story at a Cub Scout campout long ago :)

    Isaac Asimov also did one that was, in the preface or after-notes, referred to as a Shaggy Dog story. In the distant future, the world is ruled by Atlantis, a high-tech flying city. The police/enforcers are Amazonian soldiers known as the Waves - I don't recall why.
    Because back when he wrote it, he could count on his readers being familiar with the name of the Women's branch of the Navy : United States Naval Reserve (Women's Reserve), better known as the WAVES (for Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Service)

    per Wikipedia, of course.

  28. - Top - End - #808
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Wizard of Oz is a story about character growth. Even though everything was All Just A Dream, the growth remains.

    A shaggy dog story has to be TRULY pointless. If we went through the movie and Dorothy woke up right as she was about to pull the Wizard's curtain aside, then it might count.

    The point of a shaggy dog story is there is no point, and arguably not even a STORY at all. It's just a series of events that happen, at best instigated by a specific event but never with any meaningful resolution or even narrative theming
    This is my best understanding of the concept - it's a kind of practical joke by the storyteller on the receiver, playing off the existing understanding of narratives and the way people try to sort things into patterns and attach meaning to them. As your story gets longer and ramblier and apparently irrelevant, your listener gets more invested in the apparent resolution because there has to be some reason you're describing all these events. And when you get tired of leading them on, you just.. kinda stop and leave the listener hanging on that resolution. There's no plot or reason to what you've listened to, just things that happened.

    This would make a 'pure' Shaggy Dog very hard to do, largely because the storyteller themselves -also- want some kind of resolution - I'd say the ones that are built around a pun are certainly Shaggy Dog adjacent but aren't quite examples of the form, because the story does have a purpose. Its purpose is to provide context for a really terrible joke, but it does have purpose.

  29. - Top - End - #809
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    I think you run into a risk, as you continue narrowing what defines the thing as 'a shaggy dog story' of narrowing it so far, no story longer qualifies.

    Sometimes a definition is helpful as a guideline rather than a firm bordered box.

    This story has "shaggy dog" qualities, even if it differs from the classic definition in small ways, you could say about a number of the examples so far presented.

    It's a balance, I would agree, between overusing the term (like the terms strawman and gaslighting get overused) for things that don't qualify, or over legislating the term to the point that it no longer has any use at all.

  30. - Top - End - #810
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    My favorite Shaggy Dog story
    Well, if we're doing that:


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