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  1. - Top - End - #751
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    If you'd like some evidence regarding that theory, I would be evidence against it. Have played the first game plenty of times, including multiple times before ME2 came out, but nonetheless consider ME1 the weakest of the trilogy by a significant margin. Still good, but far less so than its sequels.


    I would imagine that's likely indicative of most people seeing the romances as only a minor part of what makes the games good, personally. Worth mentioning, but not something that will define which they think is best.
    Yeah. That. The Romance is more content with a character I like, and often very interesting and emotional content, but the sex scenes are all somewhere between totally uninteresting or actively cringey to watch. Overall, I'd say the Romances are on about the same level as the Citadel content in ME3: just more time spent with the characters, but having a drink or going to a party or shooting a Blasto Movie would be just as good or better.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2024-06-14 at 06:18 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #752
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    I can mostly see how you can get there if you view the story as 'how he met the mother,' (though even then, I don't think it works, as that portion is quite well executed and I don't think the complaints are about the mother's illness/death, it's about Barney/Robin imploding and Robin/Ted coming back), but that's pretty transparently not the story they were actually telling, which is most obvious by the fact that the mother doesn't even show up until the last season, which almost all takes place over a tiny period of time.
    Maybe. I think ultimately people accepted "they won't" as an ending for the Robin/Ted will-they-won't-they, and then Cristin Milotti was so charming and made the character endearing to a point where people were mad at an ending which sidelined her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    I agree that people can mistake "the ending didn't go the protagonists way" with "shaggy dog"...the (literally) everybody loses ending of Cabin in the Woods is a good example, but I am right there with you on how it feels. Maybe more acceptable because it is at least horror-adjacent, and we're trained to accept "protagonists lose" in horror movies?
    Cabin in the Woods is also more of an "everyone else loses" than a "protagonists lose".

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    It works well with novelty songs. Weird Al's song Albuquerque is pretty good
    Honestly doing a shaggy dog ending is going to have better odds the shorter your story is. Pretty easy to sell it in a short campfire story or a song where it's basically just an elaborate joke and the audience investment is minimal. You can also make it work in movies, especially ones where audience investment is minimal, but I wouldn't dare do it with a TV show or a long running comic where audience investment is extremely high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Yeah. That. The Romance is more content with a character I like, and often very interesting and emotional content, but the sex scenes are all somewhere between totally uninteresting or actively cringey to watch.
    I honestly suspect a Party-based RPG that leaned into more of a matchmaker fantasy than a self-insert dating sim would do really well with people. I think that's already pretty popular in Fire Emblem and the Parvati Outer Worlds quest is one of the parts of that game people seem to remember really fondly, and it lets a player see more romance paths on a given playthrough.

    Problem would be that it's a lot more work. With the Dating Sim model you only need to write out one romance path per character.

  3. - Top - End - #753
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Cabin in the Woods is also more of an "everyone else loses" than a "protagonists lose".
    Isn't it an "everybody loses"? I meant that we are more accepting of "protagonists" losing in horror with the unspoken belief that we are already fully accepting of "everyone other than the protagonists lose"...so "everybody loses" is acceptable in Cabin.

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  4. - Top - End - #754
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    Isn't it an "everybody loses"? I meant that we are more accepting of "protagonists" losing in horror with the unspoken belief that we are already fully accepting of "everyone other than the protagonists lose"...so "everybody loses" is acceptable in Cabin.
    I've never understood the Cabin in the Woods ending as a loss for the protagonists. They don't make it, but it is entirely on their terms. I guess "everybody loses" is more literally accurate since everybody does die but that's not really how it feels.

  5. - Top - End - #755
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    I have never heard “shaggy dog story” used to mean “disappointing ending” before.

    I always thought it meant a long rambling story without a focused purpose or point, like one of Grandpa Simpson’s stories or the aforementioned Weird Al song.



    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Also some RtWP games have an internal rounds clock which actually determine the rate at which things happen completely separate from any individual character's speeds or cooldowns.

    For example in BG1 if you cast a spell that takes 1 second to cast at the start of a round and then immediately order for it to be cast again, your wizard will wait 5 seconds then start casting, but if you cast it 4 seconds into a round and then immediately cast again they will only wait 1 second because they can cast once per round irrespective of how fast the casting time is.

    Knights of the Old Republic as well makes it super obvious that most of the attack animations are fake and not associated with an actual attack, because there's only actually one per six seconds.
    I wish I had known this a month ago when I was arguing on the RPG forum that there is indeed a component of manual dexterity and timing involved in these games beyond rote memorization of tactics.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2024-06-16 at 09:43 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #756
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I have never heard “shaggy dog story” used to mean “disappointing ending” before.

    I always thought it meant a long rambling story without a focused purpose or point, like one of Grandpa Simpson’s stories or the aforementioned Weird Al song.
    A lot of the time such stories end with an anti-climax, which can be dissapointing depending on what you were looking for going in.
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  7. - Top - End - #757
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I have never heard “shaggy dog story” used to mean “disappointing ending” before.

    I always thought it meant a long rambling story without a focused purpose or point, like one of Grandpa Simpson’s stories or the aforementioned Weird Al song.
    No, it specifically means a story with a bleak ending that deliberately makes the entire story pointless. The original "Shaggy dog story" is about a man who thinks that he's found a missing dog, tries to return it to its owner, is shot to death for trespassing when he goes to the owner's house, and it turns out that it's not even the right dog.

    It's not "disappointing", it's pointless and nihilistic.

  8. - Top - End - #758
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSquirrel View Post
    No, it specifically means a story with a bleak ending that deliberately makes the entire story pointless. The original "Shaggy dog story" is about a man who thinks that he's found a missing dog, tries to return it to its owner, is shot to death for trespassing when he goes to the owner's house, and it turns out that it's not even the right dog.

    It's not "disappointing", it's pointless and nihilistic.
    Are you sure? That runs contrary to everything I have ever heard.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaggy_dog_story
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  9. - Top - End - #759
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I have never heard “shaggy dog story” used to mean “disappointing ending” before.

    I always thought it meant a long rambling story without a focused purpose or point, like one of Grandpa Simpson’s stories or the aforementioned Weird Al song.
    Yeah, that's the only serious way I've seen it used too.

    I have heard people describe all many of 'not happy' endings as being 'disappointing' and 'pointless' before, but that's another, sillier topic



    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSquirrel View Post
    No, it specifically means a story with a bleak ending that deliberately makes the entire story pointless. The original "Shaggy dog story" is about a man who thinks that he's found a missing dog, tries to return it to its owner, is shot to death for trespassing when he goes to the owner's house, and it turns out that it's not even the right dog.
    As far as I'm aware, the original version of that particular form just ends with the man being turned away at the door because the dog he's brought is too shaggy.

    EDIT: ninja'd
    Last edited by Mx.Silver; 2024-06-16 at 12:43 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #760
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I'd argue that almost all shaggy dog stories are bad.
    With the notable exceptions of The Big Lebowski and Norm Macdonald's moth joke.

  11. - Top - End - #761
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSquirrel View Post
    No, it specifically means a story with a bleak ending that deliberately makes the entire story pointless. The original "Shaggy dog story" is about a man who thinks that he's found a missing dog, tries to return it to its owner, is shot to death for trespassing when he goes to the owner's house, and it turns out that it's not even the right dog.

    It's not "disappointing", it's pointless and nihilistic.
    I think Talakeal was talking about the examples in the TvTropes site, in which a large percentage are really just "endings the audience (or even just the person who contributed the entry) didn't like" and not at all what I would consider a Shaggy Dog ending.

    To me, to be a shaggy dog story, the "shag" in the story has to be tedious in some way, presented to the audience as though it's necessary for the ending to work, but not actually do so in any way, and add nothing else to the audience in terms of enjoyment. So you're wading through this stuff, expecting it to pay off, but it never does (or the payoff is there, but large portions of the story along the way were unnecessary for that payoff to work).

    If the ending is enjoyable for other reasons (ie: twist ending) *or* the "shag/filler" is enjoyable for other reasons (journey story, not destination story), then I don't consider that a shaggy dog. Of course, that does make this a bit subjective.

  12. - Top - End - #762
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    I think Talakeal was talking about the examples in the TvTropes site, in which a large percentage are really just "endings the audience (or even just the person who contributed the entry) didn't like" and not at all what I would consider a Shaggy Dog ending.

    To me, to be a shaggy dog story, the "shag" in the story has to be tedious in some way, presented to the audience as though it's necessary for the ending to work, but not actually do so in any way, and add nothing else to the audience in terms of enjoyment. So you're wading through this stuff, expecting it to pay off, but it never does (or the payoff is there, but large portions of the story along the way were unnecessary for that payoff to work).

    If the ending is enjoyable for other reasons (ie: twist ending) *or* the "shag/filler" is enjoyable for other reasons (journey story, not destination story), then I don't consider that a shaggy dog. Of course, that does make this a bit subjective.
    I agree with this. A story that never pays off or gets to the point is also my definition of a shaggy dog story.

    Which is not to say it can’t be enjoyable, Grandpa Simpson’s story is one of the greatest comedy bits in the show, and I still recall the time I saw Weird Al live and he reacted to our demands of an encore with “Ok, but you asked for it” and then launching into an extra long version of Albuquerque.

    What I am disagreeing with is the idea that a bleak or nihilistic ending makes something a shaggy dog story.
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  13. - Top - End - #763
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    What I am disagreeing with is the idea that a bleak or nihilistic ending makes something a shaggy dog story.
    Yeah, I'd never heard the idea before today that it did. It's always been just a long meandering story that goes nowhere and arrives with no point.

  14. - Top - End - #764
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    I think Talakeal was talking about the examples in the TvTropes site, in which a large percentage are really just "endings the audience (or even just the person who contributed the entry) didn't like" and not at all what I would consider a Shaggy Dog ending.
    TVTropes being a public wiki means it's very easy for definitions to drift as editors misinterpret things or work from their own biases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Yeah, I'd never heard the idea before today that it did. It's always been just a long meandering story that goes nowhere and arrives with no point.
    I've always understood a Shaggy Dog ending as a sort of punchline ending. Nothing in the story mattered, goodbye!

    It's not like an intrinsically bad thing even. You can make it work, it's just deeply frustrating in a story which has built up a ton of audience investment over the years.

  15. - Top - End - #765
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    TVTropes being a public wiki means it's very easy for definitions to drift as editors misinterpret things or work from their own biases.



    I've always understood a Shaggy Dog ending as a sort of punchline ending. Nothing in the story mattered, goodbye!

    It's not like an intrinsically bad thing even. You can make it work, it's just deeply frustrating in a story which has built up a ton of audience investment over the years.
    Agreed. To me, the Star Trek Voyager episode "Course Oblivion" is a prime example of a Shaggy Dog ending. Literally nothing that happens in that episode matters in the slightest to the story, and in fact our heroes are unaware of it.

    And yes, it's much worse when it is a series ending and not just an episode.
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    The confusion exists because TV Tropes has "Shoot the shaggy dog" entry, which is the specific version of a "Shaggy dog" story that is all terrible.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Here's a media opinion I suspect I'm in the minority on, though I'm not certain:

    The V.I.P.s in Squid Game were not a mistake, they accomplished exactly what they were meant to. I thought they were an excellent addition and I was pretty surprised when I learned a lot of people hated the execution on that part.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    I like rich people with masks.

  19. - Top - End - #769
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    I like rich people with masks.
    I don't think liking Batman puts you in the minority of viewers.
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I don't think liking Batman puts you in the minority of viewers.
    Batman is a singular rich person with a mask, not multiple masked rich people

  21. - Top - End - #771
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Batman is a singular rich person with a mask, not multiple masked rich people
    Batman, Robin, Batwoman, Black Mask, etc etc.
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  22. - Top - End - #772
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Perhaps "rich people with masks" was referring to "Eyes Wide Shut". I have no idea what the popular opinion of that one was, but I did not like rich people with masks in that.
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  23. - Top - End - #773
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    I assumed it was a continuation of the Squid Games discussion of rich people in masks from the post above?

    I didn't realize those were controversial. I thought Squid Games was a fairly popular show, and that I was with pretty much everyone else in enjoying it. Obviously, those characters are framed as antagonists, but I don't think their depiction was a problem for the show. Gotta have some bad guys, after all.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I assumed it was a continuation of the Squid Games discussion of rich people in masks from the post above?

    I didn't realize those were controversial. I thought Squid Games was a fairly popular show, and that I was with pretty much everyone else in enjoying it. Obviously, those characters are framed as antagonists, but I don't think their depiction was a problem for the show. Gotta have some bad guys, after all.
    Probably, but I haven't seen Squid Game, and rich people with masks brought Eyes Wide Shut to mind.
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  25. - Top - End - #775
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I assumed it was a continuation of the Squid Games discussion of rich people in masks from the post above?

    I didn't realize those were controversial. I thought Squid Games was a fairly popular show, and that I was with pretty much everyone else in enjoying it. Obviously, those characters are framed as antagonists, but I don't think their depiction was a problem for the show. Gotta have some bad guys, after all.
    I do recall there being some dissent on the rich people with masks, but I don't remember what it was. Maybe they thought it was a bit blunt and unsubtle, but then have you seen the rest of Squid Game?

    Like the others in this thread I thought they were fine and accomplished the purpose they were added to the narrative for.

  26. - Top - End - #776
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Oh! Squid Game is definitely an example for me. I was not a fan of the show at all.

    In part because I'm a pretty big fan of Kaiji: Ultimate Survivor and Squid Game is the same concept as one arc of that series but executed way, way worse. The "bizarre rich people" angle is one.

    Spoiler: Kaiji
    Show
    In that series the wacky rich people who want to see human suffering are a bit more...realistic, I guess? At least, compelling. The game that's open to the public is the "Human Derby", which involves people moving on narrow beams and racing to the end; if they fall, it's just far enough they'll break bones, but not die.

    ...And then the winners are given the opportunity to compete for a greater prize afterward. The same game, but suspended near the top of skyscrapers. Some of the beams will be electrified, others won't. You won't know until you start going. Essentially, the exact same setup as the Hopscotch game, but without the meh execution of "the last person to go has a safe run". It's dangerous for everyone, all the time, and your fate is left up to both random chance (did you pick the right beam at the start?) and your own ability not to lose your balance and fall while moving forward at a steady pace.

    And, at the end, it's revealed there is a leap of faith required; NO beam actually goes to the end. You need to make a jump for a glass platform, essentially invisible, suspended in the air near the exit.

    This game is set up for the singular amusement of ONE wacky rich person who owns most of the world and looks down on the other wacky rich people as being easily amused. The other games really only exist to keep "the masses" (i.e. the other millionaires and billionaires) happy while he looks for ways to feed his own depraved appetites.

    Kaiji spends most of season 2 seated in a pachinko parlor, pulling a lever, and there is more tension and excitement in one episode of this than multiple episodes of Squid Game. It's just so ridiculously better executed as a gambling series.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Yeah, I said it as a response to the Squid Game, but my love is general for the masked rich trope. But I wouldn't count Batman, since the mask is a disguise hiding the fact that he's a rich playboy.

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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I do recall there being some dissent on the rich people with masks, but I don't remember what it was. Maybe they thought it was a bit blunt and unsubtle, but then have you seen the rest of Squid Game?

    Like the others in this thread I thought they were fine and accomplished the purpose they were added to the narrative for.
    The acting of the VIPs was, for many, hard to stomach.
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Yeah, I thought the problem wasn't that they were unlikable characters, that's exactly why they are in the story. But I felt like their acting wasn't very good and the dialogue felt badly written, possibly by someone who didn't speak very good English.
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    Default Re: Works where you were surprised to learn you were in the minority of viewers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I don't think liking Batman puts you in the minority of viewers.
    Got a hearty chuckle out of me, well done

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Batman is a singular rich person with a mask, not multiple masked rich people
    Hmmm. That's a pretty suspiciously specific thing to deny if you ask me. The kind of thing multiple masked rich people posing as Batman would want me to think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I didn't realize those were controversial. I thought Squid Games was a fairly popular show, and that I was with pretty much everyone else in enjoying it. Obviously, those characters are framed as antagonists, but I don't think their depiction was a problem for the show. Gotta have some bad guys, after all.
    Yeah, the complaints I heard about them from friends were that, unlike the other villains like the "evil" players, the Front Man, and the Playstation Buttons staff members, the V.I.P.s were poorly written and acted. Which I can definitely understand as a complaint, I just didn't agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Yeah, I thought the problem wasn't that they were unlikable characters, that's exactly why they are in the story. But I felt like their acting wasn't very good and the dialogue felt badly written, possibly by someone who didn't speak very good English.
    I absolutely found it jarring in the moment, but that didn't last for me -- the crudeness kind of won me over after awhile. However, this is definitely a situation where I can understand if it didn't work for other people. The V.I.P.s are absolutely a tonal shift for the rest of the show. I thought they were well executed, but I can't argue with the people who say, essentially, "I get it. I ain't laughing, but I get it."

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