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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: You can apparently enhance artifacts.

    Quote Originally Posted by RNightstalker View Post
    It's a staff! By it's very definition it's a weapon! It's even a pound heavier than the standard quarterstaff because it's shod in iron.

    Can your "run of the mill" Staff of the Magi be enhanced as a weapon? RAW no. But if someone is going to build a better one it would be foolish to not include double masterwork components: +1 eager/+1 warning anyone?
    Magic staves can also be like walking staves and cudgels. There is quite the variety in style so you can't say every magic staff is capable of being a quarterstaff. It's the "every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square" argument. Logically you can't retroactively make it a masterwork weapon anyways and because it's an artifact you can't make one yourself.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2018

    Default Re: You can apparently enhance artifacts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Magic staves can also be like walking staves and cudgels. There is quite the variety in style so you can't say every magic staff is capable of being a quarterstaff. It's the "every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square" argument. Logically you can't retroactively make it a masterwork weapon anyways and because it's an artifact you can't make one yourself.
    "You would not part an old man from his walking stick?-Gandalf

    If you can show me an item with a staff in its title being described as a cudgel I'll give you that. Otherwise we'll have to agree to disagree. That being said, yes most of the staves described aren't exactly made for melee, but those that are also require Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

    I already agreed with you that masterwork components can't be retroactively added to existing weapons; that's crafting 101. As far as making an artifact? I submit to you from the DMG p277:

    "Minor artifacts are not necessarily unique items. Even so, they are magic items that no longer can be created, at least by common mortal means."

    If someone wants to craft something better than the Staff of the Magi, being 33rd level to take the Craft Epic Staff feat after grabbing the Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor feat sometime after 25th level, that would definitely exceed the "common mortal means" threshhold in my book.

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: You can apparently enhance artifacts.

    Quote Originally Posted by RNightstalker View Post
    "You would not part an old man from his walking stick?-Gandalf

    If you can show me an item with a staff in its title being described as a cudgel I'll give you that. Otherwise we'll have to agree to disagree. That being said, yes most of the staves described aren't exactly made for melee, but those that are also require Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

    I already agreed with you that masterwork components can't be retroactively added to existing weapons; that's crafting 101. As far as making an artifact? I submit to you from the DMG p277:

    "Minor artifacts are not necessarily unique items. Even so, they are magic items that no longer can be created, at least by common mortal means."

    If someone wants to craft something better than the Staff of the Magi, being 33rd level to take the Craft Epic Staff feat after grabbing the Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor feat sometime after 25th level, that would definitely exceed the "common mortal means" threshhold in my book.
    A typical staff is like a walking stick, quarterstaff, or cudgel.

    Some examples:
    https://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=35/bent-staff
    https://www.wowhead.com/classic/item...ryptbone-staff
    https://www.wowhead.com/classic/item...darkwood-staff

    You can craft artifacts using the appropriate divine salient ability.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2018

    Default Re: You can apparently enhance artifacts.

    And everything you linked to was a two-handed piece of equipment.

    This is going nowhere, you may have the last word if you wish.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: You can apparently enhance artifacts.

    Quote Originally Posted by RNightstalker View Post
    And everything you linked to was a two-handed piece of equipment.

    This is going nowhere, you may have the last word if you wish.
    What do you think a cudgel is? Walking sticks and cudgels are not standard weapons by 3.5 standards.

    A magic staff could be a quarterstaff, but it could also not be. The staff of power explicitly states it is one which makes it an exception, not the rule.

    I could also link some off-hand frill items that are similar in appearance if you so wish.
    Last edited by Darg; 2024-06-22 at 03:32 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Aug 2017

    Default Re: You can apparently enhance artifacts.

    Quote Originally Posted by RNightstalker View Post
    If you can show me an item with a staff in its title being described as a cudgel I'll give you that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dungeon Master's Guide page 243 on magic staffs
    Staffs

    A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells. Unlike wands, which can contain a wide variety of spells, each staff is of a certain kind and holds specific spells. A staff has 50 charges when created.
    Physical Description

    A typical staff is 4 feet to 7 feet long and 2 inches to 3 inches thick, weighing about 5 pounds. Most staffs are wood, but a rare few are bone, metal, or even glass. (These are extremely exotic.) Staffs often have a gem or some device at their tip or are shod in metal at one or both ends. Staffs are often decorated with carvings or runes. A typical staff is like a walking stick, quarterstaff, or cudgel. It has AC 7, 10 hit points, hardness 5, and a break DC of 24.

    It's literally in the definition entry of what a magic staff is that it can be as short as 4 feet, and can be a walking stick or cudgel.


    Of note in the core/SRD/DMG magic staffs, only 2 of them (Staff of Power and Staff of the Woodlands) say they can be used as a weapon and have a weapon's +X enhancement. The wording of each of them makes note that those specific ones are quarterstaffs, with wording like: "The staff may be used as a weapon, functioning as a +2 quarterstaff"
    "I want tools to use in the game, not a blank check to do what I want. I can already do what I want." -Rich Burlew, author of OoTS, and founder/owner of this very website you're reading this text on.

    Grod's Law of game design: "You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use"

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2018

    Default Re: You can apparently enhance artifacts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crichton View Post
    It's literally in the definition entry of what a magic staff is that it can be as short as 4 feet, and can be a walking stick or cudgel.
    Well I am corrected...do you have anything to wash down that humble pie with?!

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    gatorized's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2023

    Default Re: You can apparently enhance artifacts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Herbert_W View Post
    While true, this leaves open the question of what happens in an RPG when you try to perform calculations on non-existent numbers.

    We know what happens in a computer program: the program spews error messages. Data gets corrupted. Either the program crashes or your whole computer does. No meaningful result is obtained. The best case is that you get to restart from the last time you saved and try something different.

    RPGs can't crash in the same way as a computer can. There's still going to be the same people sitting around the same table, wondering what happens next.

    I think this is going to have to come down to a DM decision. This is a case where the rules are literally inconclusive: the question is "what's the price for upgrading such and such and artifact like so and so?" and the answer is "well, first you reference this number (which doesn't exist) . . . "

    There are a lot of cases in DnD where DM discretion is required becasue a literal reading of the rules is inconclusive or silly. I mean, nothing in the rules stops you from downgrading a magic item to extract gold and Xp. You can just take a +2 sword and craft a +1 sword using it. Nothing in the rules says that the starting cost of the item needs to be lower than the final cost, so the price difference can be negative. All of the relevant math in the DMG still works when you run negative numbers through it. Obviously you can't do that at a real table, and the reason why you can't is that any reasonable DM would decide against it. It's less clear how a DM would rule about upgrading artifacts, but the same principle applies: the rules are dysfunctional as written, so you need to ask your DM.
    Why shouldn't you be able to de-craft weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
    No, it is X-X, the object is being subtracted from itself. This is not complex mathatics, this is Formal Logic.

    Both of your point only hold up if we are making a calcalution involving 2 unknowns, 2 infinities, or 2 error values, we are not. We are using the same value twice.

    You are commiting to a logical fallacy by building a false equivalence between X-X=0 and X-Y=Z.

    Granted, all of this is tangential. There are a number of ways to use magic to ignore the gold value calculations entirely when making magic items.
    Subtraction is not defined on NaN. It cannot be performed.

    Your mistake is primarily identified in "the object being subtracted" and "we are using the same value twice". There isn't any object. You don't have a value to use.
    Last edited by gatorized; 2024-07-10 at 09:09 PM.

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