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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SlashDash View Post
    It seems like a killing blow, but I think that is a false impression. I'm going to guess Calder is not out of things yet.
    As everyone said - The paladins and Sunny can't be out forever and going through the path down seems unlikely unless V has something to shrink Bloodfeast.
    Sad goodbye, incoming.
    They're going to have to leave Bloodfeast guarding this room.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by alceryes View Post
    Sad goodbye, incoming.
    They're going to have to leave Bloodfeast guarding this room.
    Do you think that the last blast of dragon fire hit Bloodfeast?
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Oh my Northern Gods I love Roy's sass!

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Do you think that the last blast of dragon fire hit Bloodfeast?
    No. I think that the order has no way to shrink him back down to pocket'saur size.

    Edit: Although, V could have polymorph other, right?
    Last edited by alceryes; 2024-07-10 at 09:43 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Or maybe she is the deity of Chromatic Dragons and any Chromatic Dragon's soul by default goes to her.
    That's what I meant with "Another alternative is that there is a special rule for Evil dragons that serve Tiamat." (either that they default to Hell or specifically those that serve her, both seem plausible). Evil ones, anyways. Would be really unfair if a Chaotic Good red dragon (if there are any in this world) ended up in Hell.

    The interpretation that he wasn't being literal is also plausible, I suppose. In this strip, one of them said "Welcome to Hell", but Sabine was there and she was currently banished to her home plane, presumably the Abyss: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Nice page, I like how Calder is so outraged at Roy's suggestion he doesn't even get Elan in his breath's AOE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylian View Post
    Interesting. He mentioned serving Tiamat in Hell. Hell is a Lawful Evil plane, but red dragons are Always Chaotic Evil. However, in D&D 3.5 "Always" doesn't mean always, rare individuals may have a different alignment. So maybe Calder is a Lawful Evil red dragon?

    Another alternative is that there is a special rule for Evil dragons that serve Tiamat. We've already seen something like it for Valhalla, which is likely based on Ysgard, a Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral afterlife, where even Lawful Good servants of Thor (like Durkon) end up.

    A third alternative is that he's simply mistaken, and he'd go to the Abyss, the Chaotic Evil afterlife.
    Most DnD settings have it that the afterlife of the deity you worship, if you have one, is accounted for before alignment, when determining where your soul goes.

    The priority order generally goes:

    1. Special circumstances (deals with entities who claim the soul, effects that capture the souls, curses that doom the soul to a specific extraplanar torment, the soul getting lost in the Ethereal and becoming a ghost, etc)
    2. Deity
    3. Alignment, which is then subdivise in which of the Outer Planes fitting your alignment fits you the best (ex: Gehenna receives both lawful evil and neutral evil folks, but IIRC the people who ends up here are mostly those who have done evil out of greed).


    Roy *is* a bit wrong in that it's entirely possible to send the soul of someone to Hell regardless of said someone's deity or alignment. But that requires a specific power or some kind of ritual, so he's likely correct that Calder can't do it right now.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hagnat View Post
    i surely hope they drag his corpse somewhere,
    because no one would like to have another undead dragon on their heels the next time xykon shows up
    That or disintegrate his corpse

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    Love how Roy is just casually lifting up the dragon's foot...


    Pretty sure eating sapient beings counts as cannibalism in D&D
    Is that the way it works in 5e? In Nethack , it only counts as cannibalism if you eat your own species. Given the rarity of food rations in the game, your character will eat a lot of stuff that would be ... well, not kosher or halal. In fact, eating dragons is one step below a mandatory requirement because it confers various intrinsic resistances permanently -- black dragons grant disintegration resistance, red dragons fire resistance, and so on. It's POSSIBLE to go through the game with a vegetarian conduct, but it's not easy mode by any means.

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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylian View Post
    Interesting. He mentioned serving Tiamat in Hell. Hell is a Lawful Evil plane, but red dragons are Always Chaotic Evil. However, in D&D 3.5 "Always" doesn't mean always, rare individuals may have a different alignment. So maybe Calder is a Lawful Evil red dragon?

    Another alternative is that there is a special rule for Evil dragons that serve Tiamat. We've already seen something like it for Valhalla, which is likely based on Ysgard, a Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral afterlife, where even Lawful Good servants of Thor (like Durkon) end up.

    A third alternative is that he's simply mistaken, and he'd go to the Abyss, the Chaotic Evil afterlife.
    Irrelevant. Tiamat knows about the purple quiddity, and despite having a mega-serial killer of black dragons in the Order, Tiamat needs the Order to succeed.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    <...>
    Most DnD settings have it that the afterlife of the deity you worship, if you have one, is accounted for before alignment, when determining where your soul goes.

    The priority order generally goes:

    1. Special circumstances (deals with entities who claim the soul, effects that capture the souls, curses that doom the soul to a specific extraplanar torment, the soul getting lost in the Ethereal and becoming a ghost, etc)
    2. Deity
    3. Alignment, which is then subdivise in which of the Outer Planes fitting your alignment fits you the best (ex: Gehenna receives both lawful evil and neutral evil folks, but IIRC the people who ends up here are mostly those who have done evil out of greed).
    <...>
    This!
    Also, would like to point out, that even clerics could differ from their patron deity in one step of alignment (so, e.g. LG diety could have LN and NG clerics), and those clerics would still go to their deity's realm after death. Non-clerical worshippers had even more leeway

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by alceryes View Post
    Sad goodbye, incoming.
    They're going to have to leave Bloodfeast guarding this room.
    They won't have the paladins to help.

    V will have burned too many of hir spells.

    We all know what's going to happen -- Oona is going to kill Redcloak and take over the Crimson Mantle.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Is that the way it works in 5e?
    *pushes up glasses*

    5e takes a much more "ask your DM" approach to questions of morality.

    3.5, on which the comic is based, uses two definitions: "eating your own kind" and "eating intelligent beings for perverted pleasure" (BoVD 10). For the latter, it distinguishes cannibalism from mere apex predation; e.g. dragons eat plenty of sapients obviously, but they don't count as 'cannibals' because there is no illicit thrill there; they're simply so far up the food chain that to them, eating a human isn't that different than eating a cow. There may be pleasure there, but it's the pleasure of eating a juicy steak rather than perversion.

    I'm guessing though that "would the Order be morally justified in eating Calder" is probably a question the Giant would rather not answer, either in the comic or here.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylian View Post
    Interesting. He mentioned serving Tiamat in Hell. Hell is a Lawful Evil plane, but red dragons are Always Chaotic Evil. However, in D&D 3.5 "Always" doesn't mean always, rare individuals may have a different alignment. So maybe Calder is a Lawful Evil red dragon?

    Another alternative is that there is a special rule for Evil dragons that serve Tiamat. We've already seen something like it for Valhalla, which is likely based on Ysgard, a Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral afterlife, where even Lawful Good servants of Thor (like Durkon) end up.

    A third alternative is that he's simply mistaken, and he'd go to the Abyss, the Chaotic Evil afterlife.
    Much like how Hel gets first dips on dishonourable dwarves regardless of alignment, could be that as Goddess of (Chromatic at least) Dragons every (Chromatic at least) Dragon goes there by default
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Is that the way it works in 5e?
    In 5e even the good-aligned Dragons eat people. So do the Lizardfolks.

    There are no mention of "if you eat a sapient being and you're a sapient being it's considered cannibalism" in any of the 5e books I've read, and I've read most of them.

    Also, even if it counted as cannibalism, cannibalism isn't an universal taboo. "Killing someone to eat them when there are alternatives available" is not the same as "they're already dead, and we'll be dead too if we don't eat something" or "eh, meat is meat, why would that bother anyone?", either.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2024-07-10 at 10:05 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Was it the sword killed the dragon, or was it the "Well, Actually"?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Anyone else get echos of Minrah in Roy's last panel?
    Now that you mention it, yes

    This looks like a victory, and what's more, one witnessed by Serini. I've been having this feeling that the Order hasn't really won her approval as a fighting force and that she had some uncooperative card she might still play because of it.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    *pushes up glasses*

    5e takes a much more "ask your DM" approach to questions of morality.

    3.5, on which the comic is based, uses two definitions: "eating your own kind" and "eating intelligent beings for perverted pleasure" (BoVD 10). For the latter, it distinguishes cannibalism from mere apex predation; e.g. dragons eat plenty of sapients obviously, but they don't count as 'cannibals' because there is no illicit thrill there; they're simply so far up the food chain that to them, eating a human isn't that different than eating a cow. There may be pleasure there, but it's the pleasure of eating a juicy steak rather than perversion.

    I'm guessing though that "would the Order be morally justified in eating Calder" is probably a question the Giant would rather not answer, either in the comic or here.
    Even if it does count as cannibalism, what's the issue? So, the Paladins don't partake in the feast. They can be healed up via other means.
    I truly think Belkar would take pleasure in eating Calder.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JonahFalcon View Post
    Irrelevant. Tiamat knows about the purple quiddity, and despite having a mega-serial killer of black dragons in the Order, Tiamat needs the Order to succeed.
    I think you missed the point I was trying to make. I was trying to figure out why Calder seemed to think he'd go to Hell, despite Hell (in regular D&D, at least) is a Lawful Evil plane, and red dragons are almost always Chaotic Evil.

    There are some options:
    #1. Calder is Lawful Evil rather than Chaotic Evil.
    #2. Special rule (like dragon worshippers of Tiamat go to Hell, or all evil dragons go to Hell, etc).
    #3. Calder is mistaken/speaking metaphorically.

    The purple quiddity doesn't have anything to do with Calder.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    I feel this shows at least two things:
    1) There goes all but the faintest chance that the Calder fight is to put V in a poetic moral dilemma.
    2) That Calder is on his last legs and is going to die in the first couple panels of next comic.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Roy lifted a dragon's foot off his chest. applause My friends, a high level fighter can be an impressive figure.

    And he gave Calder one last chance to not die, and got flamed in response. He who lives as an arrogant jerk, dies an arrogant jerk.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryos View Post
    That or disintegrate his corpse
    Belkar has an Allosaurus who needs feeding.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by elecampane View Post
    Yay! I hope this fight ends soon. Maybe one more page? I don't thing people usually cry out during the final blows, so unlikely Calder's already dead.
    They might cry out "GAK", though...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    ... would this have worked out better if Elan had made the pitch? I can't find the strip now, but he can do some pretty incredible things with a successful diplomacy check, and he's got high charisma as well as a high level. Why is the party fighter doing the team's diplomacy instead of the class built for it?

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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Without too much suspension of disbelief, we know Haley bought a lot of wands in the gnome city, and has the charisma and Use Magic Device skill to use them. She could very plausibly have a wand that would help get Bloodfeast out of the room, and also one that would dispose of Calder's corpse.

    Shrink would get Bloodfeast through the door, and then reapply it as needed. The party may also rest here or near here, allowing V to regain spells.

    EDIT:

    Also, I must quibble with the title of this strip. Giant, you should know that dragons don't have skin; they have scaly hides. You should have titled this "Going Inside to Hide" or something like that.

    Further edit:

    I think Roy managed to provoke Calder into aiming a breath attack at Roy, and only Roy - Elan doesn't seem to have taken any damage. That's good tactics and proves that Calder's arrogance has gotten the best of them.
    Last edited by Shining Wrath; 2024-07-10 at 10:30 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Roy lifted a dragon's foot off his chest. applause My friends, a high level fighter can be an impressive figure.

    And he gave Calder one last chance to not die, and got flamed in response. He who lives as an arrogant jerk, dies an arrogant jerk.
    I'm reminded now of how Xykon offered to set Roy aside in the Azure City battle. Roy didn't take the chance at life then, and Calder's not taking the chance now.

    Just an interesting symmetry.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Good.

    Evil is not a toy. He's refused to talk things out, poses an active threat to the world, could be turned into a zombie dragon by Xykon or charmed or otherwise compelled to work for Team Evil, so he won't be much of a stumbling block to them even against his will, and will become an asset with near absolute certainty. Even if he just escaped this situation somehow he'd be nothing but a menace.

    He was given a chance to use his sentient and intelligent brain to be useful in any way to society and/or make peace, he refused. He does not value his own life as much as his current enemies do, and so therefore, he's about to lose it.

    And Roy showed he doesn't care if someone is a monster or a dragon or evil aligned, if they can help save the world. He's shown that several times at this point. Serini should have all the evidence she needs to realize Roy is Lawful Good, not Stupid Prejudiced.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Did we see a new ability unlock on Roy's weapon?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post

    Also, I must quibble with the title of this strip. Giant, you should know that dragons don't have skin; they have scaly hides. You should have titled this "Going Inside to Hide" or something like that.
    I was thinking something like "Request: Granted".
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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JonahFalcon View Post
    They won't have the paladins to help.

    V will have burned too many of hir spells.

    We all know what's going to happen -- Oona is going to kill Redcloak and take over the Crimson Mantle.
    I don't think she strong enough to succeed in doing that unless she has a secret weapon I think. Also, Calder will probably die in the next strip or two and okay with that since he too evil to be reason with and needs to be put down for the good of the party. Since the longer he stays active then the more likely he could kill someone and don't want that to occur.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1304 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Time View Post
    I don't think she strong enough to succeed in doing that unless she has a secret weapon I think. Also, Calder will probably die in the next strip or two and okay with that since he too evil to be reason with and needs to be put down for the good of the party. Since the longer he stays active then the more likely he could kill someone and don't want that to occur.
    If Team Evil gets into a tough battle, Redcloak burns through most of his spells and is still wounded, Oona and Greyview can probably take him unless Xykon intervenes. However, I think we're being set up for Redcloak to believe Durkon at some point.
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