Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Banned
     
    Mr. Friendly's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    There has been some mention in various 4th Edition threads on ENWorld that TWF may not be implemented to start or that they haven't figured out how to work it yet.

    I haven't played Saga, so I have no idea how (if at all) it gets handled there. I was pondering the logistics problems of TWF under the new system (no more iterative attacks) and I hit upon (what I consider) a rather elegant solution.

    Eliminate TWF as a feat, eliminate the attack penalties. Instead of getting two actual rolls to attack, you just get one attack, but it gets a +50% to hit bonus based on your attacking stat ala using a 2 handed weapon does Str for damage. So, if you were fighting with say, two scimitars and had an 18 Dex and used Weapon Finesse, you would get a single attack at +6 (plus BAB, feats, magic and the like); on the other hand a big lumbering beasty or high STR fighter with say and say 22 STR would get +9 to hit (plus whatever). Obvious flaws are magic on the weapons (I would say the higher bonus applies and if one is magic and the other not, 50% of the damage is considered to come from the Magic one, for the purposes of DR); effects like burst/flaming weapons might need to be toned down.

    I dunno, what do you think?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Apr 2007

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    Yeah, I'm disappointed that it looks like 2WF won't be in the Core 3 4E books. More than likely, it'll be in one of the first supplements released...which is incredibly ridiculous.

    It's nice to think up houserules for the style, but until we see the books themselves, it just seems like idle speculation.

    Still, that sounds like it might work. *shrugs*

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Matthew's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kanagawa, Japan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    Depends a lot on what other mechanics are in place. For 3e, I employ a lot of House Rules to make it work in a balanced way.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

    – Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Crow's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    Shadowrun did something similar to what you describe regarding two weapons, Mr. Friendly, only it related to cyberweapons.

    When a character with two spurs or handrazors, or whatever attacked with both, they would do STRx1.5 + damage code instead of just STR + damage code. This is horrible fix. It leads to minmaxers with huge strength scores cutting up main battle tanks with their bare hands- er, spurs.

    Keep working on it though. With all the 4e optimism around here I'm surprised nobody things that we should give wizards the benefit of the doubt on this. Two weapon fighting builds are popular for the "cool factor". I don't think they would leave it out of the core rules.

    Probably it will use whatever mechanic they use for Mariliths and their multiple weapons.
    Avatar by Aedilred

    GitP Blood Bowl Manager Cup Record
    Styx Rivermen, Feets Reloaded, and Selene's Seductive Strut
    Record: 42-17-13
    3-time Division Champ, Cup Champion

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Banned
     
    Mr. Friendly's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Shadowrun did something similar to what you describe regarding two weapons, Mr. Friendly, only it related to cyberweapons.

    When a character with two spurs or handrazors, or whatever attacked with both, they would do STRx1.5 + damage code instead of just STR + damage code. This is horrible fix. It leads to minmaxers with huge strength scores cutting up main battle tanks with their bare hands- er, spurs.

    Keep working on it though. With all the 4e optimism around here I'm surprised nobody things that we should give wizards the benefit of the doubt on this. Two weapon fighting builds are popular for the "cool factor". I don't think they would leave it out of the core rules.

    Probably it will use whatever mechanic they use for Mariliths and their multiple weapons.
    Aye, I was thinking of SR a bit when I posted it; that's why though I only gave it as a bonus to hit and not damage.

    My reasoning behind it is that, with a flurry of attacks whirling away at someone, only one blade ever really hits, usually, the other blade is mostly there for feinting purposes, so they block to the left when the attack comes from the right and that sort of thing.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Crow's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Friendly View Post
    Aye, I was thinking of SR a bit when I posted it; that's why though I only gave it as a bonus to hit and not damage.

    My reasoning behind it is that, with a flurry of attacks whirling away at someone, only one blade ever really hits, usually, the other blade is mostly there for feinting purposes, so they block to the left when the attack comes from the right and that sort of thing.
    I could still see a great deal of abuse coming about from this.

    But I see your point. The idea of the D&D two-bladed blender chopping away with both arms like some sort of teppan chef has always bothered me.
    Avatar by Aedilred

    GitP Blood Bowl Manager Cup Record
    Styx Rivermen, Feets Reloaded, and Selene's Seductive Strut
    Record: 42-17-13
    3-time Division Champ, Cup Champion

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Banned
     
    Mr. Friendly's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    I could still see a great deal of abuse coming about from this.

    But I see your point. The idea of the D&D two-bladed blender chopping away with both arms like some sort of teppan chef has always bothered me.
    What are your thoughts on abuse? Aside from having a ludicrously high stat and getting 50% more out of it, but then there is little difference between this and the normal rules for using a two handed weapon, this is simply to hit instead of damage.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Fairfield, CA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    Since 4e gets rid of the full-attack, why not just make a TWF feat allow one to attack once with each weapon at a -2 penalty?

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Draz74's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax_Celestis View Post
    Since 4e gets rid of the full-attack, why not just make a TWF feat allow one to attack once with each weapon at a -2 penalty?
    Sounds great to me, but I'm guessing (based on what I've heard of Saga) that it will also end up requiring a swift action to make the second attack.

    Edit: Since Feats are mostly going to be bland "works for any class" types of bonuses, TWF will probably only available through a specific Talent. I don't know how many Talents will be available to multiple classes, but I'm guessing skeptically that it will probably be a Ranger-specific Talent. Meaning any Fighter or Rogue who wants to use TWF will have to dip a level of Ranger.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2007-12-18 at 11:53 AM.
    You can call me Draz.
    Trophies:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Also of note:

    I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Person_Man's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    4E gets rid of iterative attacks. The rumor is that TWF will still be in Core. It will either be a feat tree or part of the Ranger Talent tree. The feats/talents will grant you additional attacks, but at a much steeper penalty. I think its -5 on each attack in Star Wars Saga. But no one has seen specifics on it yet.

    Mathematically, having 2+ attacks per round is a huge deal when everyone else has only 1 attack per round, even at a -5 penalty. All you have to do is find a special attack that targets an enemy's lowest defense value. For example, one of the Paladin Smites that they put out in a preview are "Cha vs. Will." It wouldn't be too hard to make a TWF build that could target each of the four defenses. Then you just have to use your Skills and metagame ability to target your foe where they are weakest.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Orc in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Austin TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    Yeah, TWF in Saga is used to clear out mooks, and I think the penalty for dual wielding starts at -10. There are feats to remove the penalty (three or four feat chain). Keep in mind that level probably gives some amount of bonus damage, which is why the penalty must be so large. -2 just won't do it when you get half your level in bonus damage.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Xuincherguixe's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Non Sequitoria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    I've been doing a fair amount of thinking about this. Though not specifically for D&D.

    Using a two handed weapon, and using two weapons should be balanced with each other (as should using a shield really), but have different purposes. Such as a two handed weapon being more effective on armored targets, and using two weapons on unarmored ones.

    Maybe Two Handed weapons might be more useful for blocking attacks. Being bigger, or simply having a better grip might mean that it's easier to parry. But not against a large number of attacks.


    One might be able to specialize in one particular fighting style, making it more effective, but if they had specialized in another it should be just as useful.


    I also think that weapons should be handled in a similar way. That is the "Axe" should be equal to a "Staff", assuming equal quality and training.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Rizban: You could be all, "Today's Destruction is brought to you by the color green.... I HATE GREEN!" then fly off mumbling to yourself "Seven... seven bats... mwa ha ha ha..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Everyone knows you can just parse XML with regex.
    Don't mind me. I'm just going to have some post traumatic flashbacks in the corner here and sob uncontrollably.


    Millenium Earl by Shmee

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Matthew's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kanagawa, Japan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Sounds great to me, but I'm guessing (based on what I've heard of Saga) that it will also end up requiring a swift action to make the second attack.
    That's almost a great idea.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

    – Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    The J Pizzel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Louisiana

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    Allow me to end the SAGA speculation. Dual Weapon Master allows you to attack with two weapons or two ends of a single weapon as a full round action with the following penalties.

    DWM I = -5
    DWM II = -2
    DWM III = no penalty.

    You may use the feats Double/Triple Attack in conjuction with one of these attacks and you may use the feats Rapid Shot/Strike with all attacks. The penalties are cumulative.

    JP

    Me and my friends have been playing SAGA since it came out. If 4e is heading in this directions.......
    Thanks to DarkCorax for the "Gnome Wizard", which holds a special place in my heart as it's the first DnD character I'd ever made.

    Live everyday like it's your last and one day, you'll be right.


  15. - Top - End - #15
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Kentucky
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    Im making a (To be incredibly vague) heavily modified version of d20 for a certain, special campaign setting. My method is to split Base Attack bonus into two, Primary and Secondary. Primary is used for the primary hand, as well as two handed weapons and other things that BAB is traditionally used for. Secondary is used for offhand attacks and fighting with double weapons. It's heavily tied to the Character's class, among other thing. (Namely a 4th Edition inspired martial system incorporated into every melee AND ranged class.) Certain character classes also have no Secondary Attack Bonus for several levels, meaning no offhand attacks. It also includes a form of active defense. My goal wasn't really to revamp TWF as a whole, it was more or less to bring the Sword and Board fighters up to snuff.

    I've yet to actually use this system in play, but it meshes with 3.5 so easily it's amazing. Man do I love homebrewing.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    DraPrime's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Civitates Foederatae
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    If they don't make 2WF core, then someone over at WotC is getting a punch in the face.
    Avatar by Serpentine.
    "Love takes up where knowledge leaves off."
    - St. Thomas Aquinas

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Artanis's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    BFE
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonprime View Post
    If they don't make 2WF core, then someone over at WotC is getting a punch in the face.
    But only one, because you won't be allowed to use both fists
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Girlfriend and Parents: Why do you spend so much money on that stuff?
    Me: Would you rather I spent all my money on alcohol like others in my peer group?
    G&P: You keep spending as much money as you want!
    Spoiler
    Show
    Bossing Around Mad Cats for Fun and Profit: Let's Play MechCommander 2!

    Kicking this LP into overdrive: Let's Play StarCraft 2!

  18. - Top - End - #18

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    No.


    But I'll use MULTIweapon fighting using hidden blades, swordsage and Thrall of demogorgon levels, a belt of battle, and an Avalanche of Blades to get AT LEAST 40 attacks, and a lot more likely.

    Seriously, an easy way for it to work is rework the main way of inflicting extra damage, PA, to be 1:1 for light weps, 1.5:1 for one handers, and 2:1 for two handers.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    DraPrime's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Civitates Foederatae
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e]Handling Two-Weapon Fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    But only one, because you won't be allowed to use both fists
    Only one per round. I guess I can only punch one WotC member every 6 seconds. Hmmm....

    *goes away to calculate how long it would take to beat up all of WotC*
    Avatar by Serpentine.
    "Love takes up where knowledge leaves off."
    - St. Thomas Aquinas

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •