Vancian Magic: Yea or Nay

[Mr. Friendly]

Related to a point brought up in another thread, a simple vote.

Do you like Vancian Magic or would you rather have something else.

(Something else includes, but is not limited to: Vestiges, Incarnum, Invocations, Shadowcasting, Power Points/Mana Points, Truenaming)

It doesn't even have to be something that currently exists, just if you want *something*... *anything* other than Vancian, say so.

Vancian Magic -

Memorization — The game character must memorize a fixed number of spells from the list of all spells the character knows. This memorization can only occur once in a specified time period, usually a day, or it may require the character to rest for several hours. This system is sometimes called "Vancian" in the game designer community, since its first use, in Dungeons & Dragons, was inspired by the way magic works in Jack Vance's Dying Earth world.

[Galathir]

I, for one, love Vancian magic. Sure it might not make much sense, but to me, it is D&D magic. Wizards just would not be the same without it. I've played with other magic systems, but I still like Vancian the best.

[brian c]

Something else, kinda. I'm okay with vancian for wizards, since they must have some sort of systematic approach based on how they learn it. I'm okay with it for clerics, since the gods must have some sort of system to determine which worshippers are allowed to use which spells. For sorcerers, there's no justification; I favor spell points. I also like the magic recharge system.

[Amiria]

Amiria loves Vancian Magic !

[KIDS]

While it has been the mark of D&D for many decades, I for one would rather see it replaced. Pretty much all of my prepared characters never roleplayed magic that way either and if no one mentioned it I would as often try to forget about it. Vancian casting by its very "planned" design encourages a lot of planning and doesn't lend itself well to cinematic or spontaneous scenes - I would much more like to see it replaced by mana (power) points or even sorcerer spell slots method.

[Azaul]

I will have to vote for both. Vancian magic for certain classes, like Wizards, and something else for other classes. I believe even novice gamers can pick up multiple systems since they likely only learn one class at a time.

[EvilElitest]

Related to a point brought up in another thread, a simple vote.

Do you like Vancian Magic or would you rather have something else.

(Something else includes, but is not limited to: Vestiges, Incarnum, Invocations, Shadowcasting, Power Points/Mana Points, Truenaming)

It doesn't even have to be something that currently exists, just if you want *something*... *anything* other than Vancian, say so.

Vancian Magic -

I want wizard and other such casters to use vancian magic, other types (shadow magic ect) should have their own catagory)
from,
EE

[Jack_Simth]

Vancian's good.

Virtually every gaming system out there does at will abilities, selectable abilities, or point-based systems; Vancian magic, in the gaming community, is essentially unique to D&D. Okay, it's got some headaches involved for those who don't like planning - but then, current D&D also includes the Sorcerer, Psion, and others for those interested in the less day-to-day planning of the Wizard, Cleric, or Druid. Vancian magic is just one of the things that sets D&D apart.

[mostlyharmful]

Nay and I say thee nay and I say thee NAY a third time!!! It sucks as a system, part way between "magic's just a system of thought", "magic's just a system of preparing energy beforehand" and "Magic's just amazing and we desperatly need something to rein it in".

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Personally I really enjoy my spell-like abilities, but I have nothing against Vancian casting as such.

It has worked well for many a wizard for several editions now, but for other casters other systems might be more appropriate.

[Prophaniti]

I don't much like vancian magic, I prefer power points/mana or at least spontaneous casting a la sorcerer, but there is something about the system that feels definitively D&D. Wizards in D&D would just be wierd without it... not to mention horribly overpowered unless they toned down some of those high-level spells.

[Valairn]

Vancian magic is the reason I hate playing wizards... Spells are the reason I play them anyway... sigh.

[Inyssius Tor]

Yea. Vancian casting is an interesting and unusual system, and I like it.

I really like what 4E appears to be doing--giving wizards some traditional Vancian spells, and then letting them use warlock-style magic on the fly. That's the ideal system for me, since it fits well with how I think wizards should work.

EDIT: From what I remember, that's actually not too far off from how Vance's wizards actually worked--they had the complicated stuff prepared ahead of time, but could cook things up on the fly if needed.

[rankrath]

Vanician magic is what makes D&D fun, (to me at least), as it helps keeps classes balanced. The wizard may be able to whip out "win combat" every time, but if he needs to do something else, (open a door, hit something, ect), he's SOOL. If the same type of thing was done in a power point system, the wizard could do just about anything, with less planning needed.

[Glawackus]

Vancian magic is why I tend to shy away from any variety of caster. Thumbs down.

[Felius]

I hate it with my whole heart and soul.

I'd really prefer if they made a spell point/mana system.

[Albonor]

I prefer the Vancian system for non-spontaneous casters. For the others, a Warhammer-like system which allows you to cast as often as you like but with a fair amount of risk.

Me and my best friend (who usualy are the DMs) also use a variation of the Vancian that uses a point from 2ed: It takes 10 minutes per level of the spell (5 minutes for cantrips) to memorise it and you can do it anytime*, unless you're fatigued or exausted. It prevents level 1-4 casters from having to go to sleep every 2 hours because they are fresh out after 2 encounters but nerfs the higher level ones: a level 20 wizard specialists with a 20 Intel must study and make small rituals for...40 hours to regain all of his spells if he used them all.4 long 10h days! Trust me, the party wizard isn't that eager to steal the show and the fighter is QUITE useful when Time Stop really is a last resort...

*To really separate Wizards from Sorcerers, we decideed that wizards were more similar to the witchraft lore, preparing long rituals in order to cast a single spell, drawing runes on a piece of paper and burning it, etc. It gave us a more interesting feel about them than: read for 1h- blast/batman- sleep- repeat.

[Saph]

Yea.

As things are, you can play a Vancian caster (wizard, cleric) or a spontaneous caster (sorcerer, favoured soul) or an MP caster (psion, psywarrior) or several other flavours.

So the players who like Vancian can go Vancian, and the ones who hate it can do something else. Choice is good.

That said, it's hard for new players to get used to, since it takes a long time for them to get the hang of planning ahead each game day. I generally try to steer new players towards spontaneous casters rather than Vancian ones.

- Saph

[fendrin]

Nay-ish.

I would like to see a system flexible enough that it could be Vancian or non-Vancian.

You have spells/melds/powers/vestiges/whatever, they have a 'level' based on how much incarnum/power points/whatever you invest in them.

When you 'cast' your spell, you have the option to 'burn' some of the points invested in it to make it more powerful (maybe metamagic burns points?).

maybe points can be reallocated with a full action of concentration, which can be shortened with feats (down to a swift action, like incarnum), but once a point is 'burned' it is gone until the next day...

A system like that would allow casters to 'prepare' spells and just use them, like a wizard, burning all of the points in the spell would make it no longer useable. It's also like having built in reserve feats. On the other hand, you could never burn points (investing your feats to allow you to move points around) to make it like incarnum. There could also be 'spells' that summon and bind other beings to your will, granting a variety of minor powers, that last for 24 hours, but you have to burn a large number of points in the process. This would be like binding a vestige. With the right vestige(s) you would be able to simulate a warlock.

beyond that, there are flavor elements of 'spells' versus 'truenames' versus FF style summons. That's all fluff and flavor that can be done as a current D&D caster, if so desired.

I wish I had thought of this a while ago. It's just not worth it to me to put the effort into developing this now, with 4e right around the corner. Otherwise I would, because I really like the idea.

I think we all know that 4e is not going to be like my idea...
[pipedream]though it may not be too far off.[/pipedream]

[Fax Celestis]

Vancian casting is annoying and a bother, to me, and a mechanical nightmare. Half the reason many spells are considered broken is because they are not appropriately leveled, and this is directly correlated to Vancian casting and it's lack of rules for defining where exactly spells should be leveled.

Vancian casting also represents a plausibility issue: why is a spellcaster limited to strict limits of what he can and cannot cast per day?

In addition to these, Vancian casting scales inappropriately: I'd rather be able to increase the power of a lower-level spell by expending more energy on it (a la psionic augmentation) rather than learning a whole new more powerful spell.

My last beef with Vancian casting (which is really more a beef with 3.x, but that's neither here nor there) is that the power curve of the spell levels isn't linear: it's exponential. A second level spell is twice as powerful as a first, and a third is twice as powerful as a second. This means that a 9th level spell is roughly 256 times more powerful than a first level spell, rather than something more reasonable, like 9 times more powerful.

[Methabroax]

I support Vancian 100 percent. It's what makes magic in DnD what it is. Power point systems never achieve the type of balance that arbitrary assignment achieves. Besides being the mechanical heart of magic, it's provides a ton of flavor to the world by forcing the choice between equally powerful options that might have nothing to do with each other. Having your 5th level wizard choose between being able to fireball his opponents or being able to fly is a heartbreaker in mountainous terrain where mobility is as valuable as damage.

Without the distinct quality that the system has, what remains of the essence of the game that we have played for so long? THACO is gone, proficiencies are gone, it would be a shame to remove the last elements that make DnD distinct.

just my two cents,

Methabroax

[Kizara]

I like it, but sometimes I enjoy using other magic systems. I find warlocks and such fun to play.

Most of the balance issues in the magic system (that I precieve) result from certain spells then the system on a whole.

[Fax Celestis]

I like it, but sometimes I enjoy using other magic systems. I find warlocks and such fun to play.

Most of the balance issues in the magic system (that I precieve) result from certain spells then the system on a whole.

Not really. The main reason spells are so powerful in comparison to mundanity is that the power curve for spells is exponential, rather than linear. And many of the ZOMGBROKENZ spells are really just mis-leveled, which is another issue with the Vancian system: there's no rules (or even guidelines) for determining spell level. It's an even more imprecise science than determining LA.

[Admiral Squish]

I love this system, personally. Mana points get out of hand too easy, and this way you can't just chug a potion and get a refill. With times/day, you still can keep track of how much 'mystic energy' is left and roleplay appropriately, but it's not as cheesy or difficult to track as mana points.

[Mojo_Rat]

I like the system. Although i refuse to refer to it as 'vancian' whatever its origins. Im not aware that any D&D book has ever called it that. Most D&D players that do not read say here or the wizards forum would have no idea what the 'vancian' system is.

anyhow regardless the requirement for planning is a balance system there isnt anything wrong with It Power points have serious issues that the people who dislike the normal casting system choose to ignore.

I dont personally think the othr systems are bad but your magic system and game design has to be designed around it.

[Saph]

Vancian casting also represents a plausibility issue: why is a spellcaster limited to strict limits of what he can and cannot cast per day?

It's actually explained fairly well, but you have to read the books of - surprise, surprise - Jack Vance. :P

It's a while since I last read them, but I think the gist of it was that much of a wizard's apprenticeship is actually memory training, enabling a wizard to keep in memory things that would send a normal person insane. One wizard tells a would-be apprentice at one point that before he can start to cast spells he should be able to imagine a tree in his head with enough detail that he can count each leaf individually, then recount them and get the same number.

- Saph

[Kantolin]

Yea

I'm a big fan of Vancian casting, although I'm not fond of how astonishingly powerful wizards are. I'd like vancian without that.

Thus I'm a bit hesitant about 4.0, but I'll have to see.

[Fax Celestis]

I love this system, personally. Mana points get out of hand too easy, and this way you can't just chug a potion and get a refill. With times/day, you still can keep track of how much 'mystic energy' is left and roleplay appropriately, but it's not as cheesy or difficult to track as mana points.

Enlighten me as to how a spell point system automatically means "buckets of points" or "refillable with a potion." Psionics--a spell point system--is largely considered to be more balanced than Vancian casting in the 3.5 milieu and allows for neither mid-day refills (something a Vancian caster can do!) or metric tons of points.

[Fax Celestis]

anyhow regardless the requirement for planning is a balance system there isnt anything wrong with It Power points have serious issues that the people who dislike the normal casting system choose to ignore.

Would you care to enumerate the problems with a power point system rather than being vague?

[DraPrime]

I say yes to Vancian magic. It's always had that proper dnd feel. Sure, it doesn't have the most sense to it, but it's a sound system that works very well, and is almost exclusive to Dnd.