Vancian Magic: Yea or Nay

[martyboy74]

I personally dislike vancian casting, but recognize it's importance to the system. It does fit some character types very well (read:wizard). However, I think that some other types of characters would work better with a MP/PP based system. I wouldn't mind having it, as long as there were other spellcasting options in core.

[Dausuul]

I detest Vancian magic. My preferred magic system involves a mix of at-will abilities, and more powerful rituals requiring a limited resource whose supply can be directly regulated without affecting other areas of the game. I actually went to the extent of building a whole new Iron Heroes class and feat trees around this mechanic... then I found out D&D 4E was coming along to make it (I hope) obsolete.

[Dark Tira]

Well, i came here to pretty much say everything Fax already said. So it's a big Nay for me. I especially hate the flavor of Vancian spellcasting. It seems very counter-intuitive to be able to memorize the same thing 3 times then forget one but still remember the other 2. I don't care how well Vance may have rationalized it in his books, it's not something that someone new to D&D will pick up and say "that makes sense."

[Fax Celestis]

Well, i came here to pretty much say everything Fax already said.

I get that a lot.

[Vectner]

I'm old school, I like it!

[mostlyharmful]

one of the things that I hate about Vancian casting is that casters either know what they'll be facing (either by good guesswork or by in game scut work) will overwhelm their challenges with an accurately picked spell selection, or they slip up and prepare something wrong, in which case their character will be penalized. without vancian casting magic use can be balenced on the face of what they're confrounted with rather than what they prepared for (and if what they prepare for doesn't happen they fall flat on their face)

[Admiral Squish]

Enlighten me as to how a spell point system automatically means "buckets of points" or "refillable with a potion." Psionics--a spell point system--is largely considered to be more balanced than Vancian casting in the 3.5 milieu and allows for neither mid-day refills (something a Vancian caster can do!) or metric tons of points.

There's all kinds of psionic items that offer additional power-point reserves. You can even make your psicrystal hold extra power points for you, with the right feats. Mindfeeder weapons, manifester shields, eyes of power leech, skin of the psion, psicrowns come with their own reservoir, and you can always use power stones to manifest some for free, if you just want a few.

[Wordmiser]

I can't stand the system. It requires too much guesswork on the player's parts, it requires too much paperwork (even if it could be worse, it could be much better), it doesn't work to maintain game balance and it isn't intuitive for new players.

[EvilElitest]

Enlighten me as to how a spell point system automatically means "buckets of points" or "refillable with a potion." Psionics--a spell point system--is largely considered to be more balanced than Vancian casting in the 3.5 milieu and allows for neither mid-day refills (something a Vancian caster can do!) or metric tons of points.

I think that the Vancian system is considered unbalanced because of the spell's levels not the system itself. Also, i like most of the magic system, i'd hate to see on go
from,
EE

[Fax Celestis]

There's all kinds of psionic items that offer additional power-point reserves. You can even make your psicrystal hold extra power points for you, with the right feats. Mindfeeder weapons, manifester shields, eyes of power leech, skin of the psion, psicrowns come with their own reservoir, and you can always use power stones to manifest some for free, if you just want a few.

...and did you fail to read the section of the rules that says you can't intermix power point sources? If you use power points from an alternative source, you have to spend only points from that source for manifesting that power. That makes power stones et al essentially into very weak scrolls.

Further, the list of items you speak of largely have direct Vancian equivalents. Weapons, shields, and other items that carry SLAs, wands, staves, scrolls, spell theft, mnemonic enhancer, etc.

[MrNexx]

Vancian Magic works well for certain things. Having your spells scale with level more or less requires either Vancian magic or increased costs (like the system in ExPsi) to avoid the problem of "I spend tiny amounts of power for a 1st level spell that's gotten uber because I'm sixth." I think it would've been interesting if they'd fixed durations at equivalent for their first level available... Bull's Strength at 3 hours would make it very useful, but not a game-breaker.

3rd edition had, IMO, one major problem with its implementation of Vancian magic. It made regaining spells too short of a process, allowing spellcasters to expend power freely without a real consequence (nine hour rest, at maximum). Earlier editions severely limited regaining upper-level spells with time restrictions.

Overall, I like Vancian magic for Dungeons and Dragons, but think that having other options is also a good idea.

[EvilElitest]

Vancian Magic works well for certain things. Having your spells scale with level more or less requires either Vancian magic or increased costs (like the system in ExPsi) to avoid the problem of "I spend tiny amounts of power for a 1st level spell that's gotten uber because I'm sixth." I think it would've been interesting if they'd fixed durations at equivalent for their first level available... Bull's Strength at 3 hours would make it very useful, but not a game-breaker.

3rd edition had, IMO, one major problem with its implementation of Vancian magic. It made regaining spells too short of a process, allowing spellcasters to expend power freely without a real consequence (nine hour rest, at maximum). Earlier editions severely limited regaining upper-level spells with time restrictions.

Overall, I like Vancian magic for Dungeons and Dragons, but think that having other options is also a good idea.

seconded
from,
EE

[Jack_Simth]

I especially hate the flavor of Vancian spellcasting. It seems very counter-intuitive to be able to memorize the same thing 3 times then forget one but still remember the other 2. I don't care how well Vance may have rationalized it in his books, it's not something that someone new to D&D will pick up and say "that makes sense."

If you stop and read the more recent flavortext (I think they brought it in for 3.0), it's not memorization anymore.

Ah, here it is - 3.0 PHB, page 154-155, under the Spell Selection and Preparation section, a few sentences in:

The act of preparing a spell is actually the first step in casting it. A spell is designed in such a way that it has an interruption point near its end. This allows a wizard to cast most of the spell ahead of time and finish the spell when it's needed, even if the character is under considerable pressure. The wizard's spellbook serves as a guide to the mental exercises the wizard must preform to create the spell's effect.

The Wizard doesn't memorize the spell - the Wizard pre-casts the vast majority of it.

[MrNexx]

The Wizard doesn't memorize the spell - the Wizard pre-casts the vast majority of it.

Which is part of why the new, shorter times don't make sense.

[Jack_Simth]

Which is part of why the new, shorter times don't make sense.

It's still a per-day allotment, not the maximum of a 9-hour break you make it out to be.
Edit:
Sorry, let me expound on that:

Rest: To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

(Emphasis added)

Bonus Spells: Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

(Emphasis added)

Nowhere does the book say you can just drop for eight hours and then spend one gaining back all those spells - you still have to wait for the next day.

[Admiral Squish]

...and did you fail to read the section of the rules that says you can't intermix power point sources? If you use power points from an alternative source, you have to spend only points from that source for manifesting that power. That makes power stones et al essentially into very weak scrolls.

Further, the list of items you speak of largely have direct Vancian equivalents. Weapons, shields, and other items that carry SLAs, wands, staves, scrolls, spell theft, mnemonic enhancer, etc.

Duly noted. But why bother to mix them when you get all you need right from that source? I'm not saying to take power points from each source to make a bigger spell, just use what you get from each. managed effectively, and you get plenty of extra juice.

And try again, I don't see any items that offer additional spells/day that you get to choose the use for. Yeah, there's some that grant their own powers, but that's a limited selection. With psion powers, it's anything you want.

[Fax Celestis]

It's still a per-day allotment, not the maximum of a 9-hour break you make it out to be.

...and to me, "per-day" is a ridiculous limitation on usage. What, the sun mystically recharges me when it rises each morning? What's the actual definition of "a day" anyway? 24 hours? What about on planes/planets where the day is longer or shorter than 24 hours? There's just to much about a "day" that can vary from person to person and place to place. Per-minute and per-hour make more sense, and even those are rather arbitrary.

[Leicontis]

I'm going to have to go with "Nay" on Vancian, at least in its current form. The general stuff I'm hearing about 4E actually sounds like a more reasonable magic system. For now, I think I'll stick with psionics and warlocks.

[Fax Celestis]

Duly noted. But why bother to mix them when you get all you need right from that source? I'm not saying to take power points from each source to make a bigger spell, just use what you get from each. managed effectively, and you get plenty of extra juice.

Large quantities of "free power points" are incredibly expensive. Manifester Shields, for instance, give you 3 PP, which essentially means an unaugmented second-level power, for 18000 gp. That's nowhere near cheap. Mindfeeder is a +3 bonus, meaning its at least 16,000 on a weapon and you can't put more frequently usable abilities on it--Mindfeeder is once-a-day, after-crit only.

Even Skin of the Psion only gives 7 PP (one unaugmented 4th level power) and power resist 21, for 151,000 gp. That's expensive, especially since figuring out the price of the item comes out to be 61,000 gp for the power points alone.

And try again, I don't see any items that offer additional spells/day that you get to choose the use for. Yeah, there's some that grant their own powers, but that's a limited selection. With psion powers, it's anything you want.

It's any power you already know, which is an important distinction. It may mean you have slightly more stamina in the long run, but it also means your versatility is drastically less. And as for spells/day you get to choose? How about pearls of power?

[Mr. Friendly]

If you stop and read the more recent flavortext (I think they brought it in for 3.0), it's not memorization anymore.

Ah, here it is - 3.0 PHB, page 154-155, under the Spell Selection and Preparation section, a few sentences in:

The Wizard doesn't memorize the spell - the Wizard pre-casts the vast majority of it.

That actually makes the case for the rationality of Vancian casting even weaker.

Consider this: It takes every Wizard, regardless of levels or spells known 1 hour to go from empty to full. Always. It takes less proportionately to refill, if they have some spells left etc.

Now if we go with the belief that a Wizard "casts" the spell during that time until it is "near it's end" then there is a serious problem...

If Wizard A "prepares" (pre-casts) Magic Missile 10 times (or any other 1 action casting time spell) then it would stand to reason that of his one hour of "preperation" he spends 6 minutes "pre-casting" each Magic Missle. Thus the "near it's end" point is just before casting the 1 standard action right?

Now, if Wizard B "prepares" Identify 10 times (or any other lengthy casting time spell) he spends that same 6 minutes "pre-casting", yet it takes him a full hour to finish casting the spell? If he was "near the end" of casting Identify, why so much extra time?

Now if we extrapolate that since most 1st level spells are 1 standard action to cast, and that the Wizard must have spent at least 15 minutes preparing it (the minimum time listed) then we can safely say that (1 action = 1 round = 6 seconds; therefore 10 rounds = 1 minute) preparing the spell took 151 rounds to actually cast. Taking that logic to it's conclusion, it should take ~1500 hours for the Vancian caster to "pre-cast" Identify.

[Jack_Simth]

...and to me, "per-day" is a ridiculous limitation on usage. What, the sun mystically recharges me when it rises each morning? What's the actual definition of "a day" anyway? 24 hours? What about on planes/planets where the day is longer or shorter than 24 hours? There's just to much about a "day" that can vary from person to person and place to place. Per-minute and per-hour make more sense, and even those are rather arbitrary.

It's a game, and one where it is essentially a mental construct of those involved. By definition, the entire thing is arbitrary to some degree or another. How is this a problem? You've just reached a personal break in verisimilitude, is all.

If you're the DM (or the DM is okay with you making up your own fluff) you can make any justification you want for the why of the mechanics in game (sorta like how Animate Dead has the [Evil] descriptor, and the skeletons/zombies it produces are Evil, even though the skeletons/zombies have an intelligence score of -, and as such, are incapable of moral judgment, and nothing in the description of Animate Dead indicates it does anything more evil than does Animate Objects). Perhaps there's some soul burn involved in initial preparation by normal means that takes a full day to recover. Perhaps the sun (or maybe the moon) IS magically recharging your *magic*.

Why is it eight hours of rest give you 1 hp per HD, while a full day - 24 hours, only gives you 2 hp per HD - shouldn't it give you 3 hp per HD back? Shouldn't you be able to just divide your hit dice by 8 to get the per-hour rate (so that the 8th level Fighter gets 1 hp per hour back if he's resting)? The game works with whole numbers - you're always going to have such granularity issues. Sorta like how a housecat is statistically likely to take down the level-1 commoner in a fight.

As you mentioned on the per minute and per hour versions "even those are rather arbitrary" - it will always be so, no matter how you set it up. What portions of it are "not arbitrary" are pretty much by definition based on the fluff - which is arbitrary.

If you pick at it, it will only get worse - any codified gaming system will have such issues if you look at it closely enough.

Edit:

That actually makes the case for the rationality of Vancian casting even weaker.

Consider this: It takes every Wizard, regardless of levels or spells known 1 hour to go from empty to full. Always. It takes less proportionately to refill, if they have some spells left etc.

Now if we go with the belief that a Wizard "casts" the spell during that time until it is "near it's end" then there is a serious problem...

If Wizard A "prepares" (pre-casts) Magic Missile 10 times (or any other 1 action casting time spell) then it would stand to reason that of his one hour of "preperation" he spends 6 minutes "pre-casting" each Magic Missle. Thus the "near it's end" point is just before casting the 1 standard action right?

Now, if Wizard B "prepares" Identify 10 times (or any other lengthy casting time spell) he spends that same 6 minutes "pre-casting", yet it takes him a full hour to finish casting the spell? If he was "near the end" of casting Identify, why so much extra time?

Now if we extrapolate that since most 1st level spells are 1 standard action to cast, and that the Wizard must have spent at least 15 minutes preparing it (the minimum time listed) then we can safely say that (1 action = 1 round = 6 seconds; therefore 10 rounds = 1 minute) preparing the spell took 151 rounds to actually cast. Taking that logic to it's conclusion, it should take ~1500 hours for the Vancian caster to "pre-cast" Identify.

Nah, better skilled Wizards are simply able to perform more exercises simultaneously than less skilled wizards.

Think about it:
That level-20 Wizard who leaves one spell slot open takes fifteen minutes to fill it, and cannot do it in less time.

That same level-20 Wizard who leaves one spell slot per spell level takes fifteen minutes to fill all of them, and cannot do it in less time.

Conclusion: The time for preparing spells is not entirely an additive or linear function; spell preparation is done in paralell.

[EvilElitest]

...and to me, "per-day" is a ridiculous limitation on usage. What, the sun mystically recharges me when it rises each morning? What's the actual definition of "a day" anyway? 24 hours? What about on planes/planets where the day is longer or shorter than 24 hours? There's just to much about a "day" that can vary from person to person and place to place. Per-minute and per-hour make more sense, and even those are rather arbitrary.

Accually, in many cultures, the time frame was considered holy, so maybe it has traces back to the source of magic, holy number ect. In the standard D&D world there is a 24 hour period
from,
EE

[Mr. Friendly]

Nah, better skilled Wizards are simply able to perform more exercises simultaneously than less skilled wizards.

Think about it:
That level-20 Wizard who leaves one spell slot open takes fifteen minutes to fill it, and cannot do it in less time.

That same level-20 Wizard who leaves one spell slot per spell level takes fifteen minutes to fill all of them, and cannot do it in less time.

Conclusion: The time for preparing spells is not entirely an additive or linear function; spell preparation is done in paralell.

Right except the examples I gave never discussed the levels of the spellcasters, since it was implied they were the same levels since I gave them both the same allotment of spells (10 First).

There is no better skilled or less skilled it is just a logical fallacy. Vancian makes no sense.

[MrNexx]

It's still a per-day allotment, not the maximum of a 9-hour break you make it out to be.

Nowhere does the book say you can just drop for eight hours and then spend one gaining back all those spells - you still have to wait for the next day.

I didn't mean to imply that. However, you can cast all of your spells, and recover them completely after 9 hours of rest (8 "sleeping", 15 minutes to 1 hour studying or meditating). This holds true at 1st level, and at 365th level.

In 2nd edition, it required sleep ("a full night"; usually interpreted as 6-8 hours), and 10 minutes per spell level to memorize spells.

A 17th level wizard in 3.x can completely recharge after 9 hours, everything from basic cantrips to spells that rewrite the very nature of reality. He spends 1 hour pre-casting 34 + intelligence bonus spells (a minimum of 38 if capable of casting 9th level spells); his 1st level apprentice takes an hour to pre-cast 1 spell. A 2nd edition wizard with the same basic spells (ignoring intelligence bonus) would require 1320 minutes... 22 hours. It takes him 10 minutes per level to memorize spells he's been casting since his apprenticeship. Thus, I think the 2nd edition numbers make more sense for the 3.x rationale... memorization should take less time if you're familiar with the spells than if you're just beginning your career, while pre-casting spells so they'll go off in an instant should take some time.

However, the time difference significantly changes wizard's tactics. A 3.x wizard can afford to burn off all his spells, because it will take him 9 hours to get them back. A 2.0 wizard would have to be a bit more conservative with his spells... casting all of them will take him several days of work to recover, and leave him somewhat vulnerable as he's recovering.

[horseboy]

I vote no. It's the main reason that low level wizards are "teh sux" and at higher levels it really doesn't matter how many times that they can cast something, since they have so many slots.

My preferred system is Matrix casting, but I'm not sure how to implement it in D&D.

[Tengu]

I don't like Vancian magic. It's very counter-intuitive, simplistic in a bad way, doesn't make a lot of sense for casters that aren't book-learned wizards and is not balanced ("completely own one encounter and then suck at the next one" is not balance). It's mana for me any day, or "infinite magic but with a twist" systems like Earthdawn or WoD's Mage.

[Deepblue706]

Nay.

I like GURPS magic. Each spell is a seperate skill, and you need lower forms of magic to learn higher ones in the same school - before you can learn Fireball, you need to learn Create Flame - so you actually have to devote yourself to a field if you want the best spells of a specific type.

Plus, there are spell mishaps. Those are fun. And there's no penalty for wearing armor. That's also fun.

GURPS magic can get pretty crazy in high-powered games, but it's not that hard to keep in check.

[Jack_Simth]

Right except the examples I gave never discussed the levels of the spellcasters, since it was implied they were the same levels since I gave them both the same allotment of spells (10 First).

There is no better skilled or less skilled it is just a logical fallacy. Vancian makes no sense.

Oh, would you prefer I instead said that the only possible break-point for Identify to still function was considerably earlier into the casting?
Or perhaps that a full casting of Identify requires the tracing down of magical pathways in the item which require the item to be present, and the full attention of the caster after that certain fifteen minute point, while Magic Missile is basically just point and click on the final options?
Seriously - you can make it make sense fairly easily - you're just not trying, is all.

I didn't mean to imply that. However, you can cast all of your spells, and recover them completely after 9 hours of rest (8 "sleeping", 15 minutes to 1 hour studying or meditating). This holds true at 1st level, and at 365th level.

In 2nd edition, it required sleep ("a full night"; usually interpreted as 6-8 hours), and 10 minutes per spell level to memorize spells.

A 17th level wizard in 3.x can completely recharge after 9 hours, everything from basic cantrips to spells that rewrite the very nature of reality. He spends 1 hour pre-casting 34 + intelligence bonus spells (a minimum of 38 if capable of casting 9th level spells); his 1st level apprentice takes an hour to pre-cast 1 spell. A 2nd edition wizard with the same basic spells (ignoring intelligence bonus) would require 1320 minutes... 22 hours. It takes him 10 minutes per level to memorize spells he's been casting since his apprenticeship. Thus, I think the 2nd edition numbers make more sense for the 3.x rationale... memorization should take less time if you're familiar with the spells than if you're just beginning your career, while pre-casting spells so they'll go off in an instant should take some time.

However, the time difference significantly changes wizard's tactics. A 3.x wizard can afford to burn off all his spells, because it will take him 9 hours to get them back. A 2.0 wizard would have to be a bit more conservative with his spells... casting all of them will take him several days of work to recover, and leave him somewhat vulnerable as he's recovering.

Err... that's more like 2 days of actual down-time, tops, with the 2.0 recovery mechanic you listed (10 minutes per spell level) - a 20th level Wizard with four spells per spell level - and let's say it averages out to one bonus spell per spell level - has 190 spell levels (counting cantrips as 1/2). That's 1,900 minutes - 31 hours, 20 minutes. Taking 8 hours of rest each day, he's got two 16 hour periods (32 hours) to cover it over two days. Yeah - it's longer - but really, it's not that bad, and it's pretty rare for a high level Wizard to be able to burn through all their spell levels in a day anyway - simply because most of them will end up unused due to the inefficiency involved in needing to know what you'll need ahead of time. Instead of needing 9 hours dedicated to nothing else, he needs 48. Yes, it's a power boost for the Wizard over the edition change - so were teleport spells without the insta-death clause, so were touch attacks.

[Ashes]

My preferred system is Matrix casting, but I'm not sure how to implement it in D&D.

Explain, please. What is this?


Also, I can go either way with spellcasting. I just hate having to adjust my spells each day, so I usually go with a Beguiler instead. Much easier.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

In my setting, I use vancian casting for Wizards and Clerics, and a homebrewed non-vancian casting for Sorcerer's and druids. In essence, to cast a spell, you roll a special check, the DC getting incrementally harder the higher the spell level, and the more spells you have cast prior.

Wizard casting only goes up to level 6. Clerics aren't martial. There is no natural spell feat. my Non-vancian is weaker then vancian, toning down the power level of Magic.