Vermin: They suck so good?

[Double_Negative]

So, I have an ECL 8 party that is in a campaign that revolves around clerics of chupoclops trying to destroy the world with an ancient artifact of untold power, blah blah, and what I've found thus far is that spiders (any vermin really) are terrible in a fight. Is this just because they're not meant to stand up and fight? I suppose what I'm really trying to ask is "where are the tough spiders?" I've been playing them hit-and-run, but I'd like to mix it up with a few that actually don't pull shenanigans, and I'm not very confident with homebrewing one.

[Talic]

Take advantage of numbers, hiding, ambushes, and the like. If using hunters, use that +10 to jump to get at the soft chewy center. If using webbers, then throw webs all over the front line. In either case, try using numbers. Weaker spiders in large groups can be frustrating, and when you have to make 4 or 5 saves vs poison, the chances increase that you'll fail one.

That said, vermin really are subpar monsters. Your goal with them isn't to destroy a party. Vermin are best used to soften a party... by an enemy that knows that.

[JackMage666]

If you notice, even very tough vermin have low CRs, just because they're not that great. Poison is good, but they have to hit (which is just unlikely), AC would be good if Dex was better, and their special abilities are just kinda iffy. Also, they have to use natural tactics, with being mindless and all, so they can't come up with complex plots that wouldn't happen instinctively.

But, they're fun to fight against. And good sources of Poison.

[TheOOB]

The advantage of vermin is the come in large large numbers. Even fairly low vermin can be a danger if there is enough of them, some of those attacks will hit(especially with aid another actions), and some of those poison saves will fail.

[dyslexicfaser]

The advantage of vermin is the come in large large numbers. Even fairly low vermin can be a danger if there is enough of them, some of those attacks will hit(especially with aid another actions), and some of those poison saves will fail.

Swarmfighting go?

[Jack Zander]

Vermin are like bug type Pokemon. At the beginning of the game they rock, but it doesn't take very long before they become obsolete and you'll wanna switch them out for more powerful monsters.

But even at high levels they can have eerie effects. Walking into a spider's nest is creepy no matter what your level.

[Diakos]

Tough spiders are the ones that rush in and use their str damage poison on low-strenght, low ac characters, toss webs at melee juggernaughts, and don't charge the halberdwielding plate wearing guy without having taken all other targest out of a fight.
Remember, whilst spiders may not have a actual int score, you'll never see a spider attacking a cat that's entered it's web, it'll stick to the targets it can take down fast and easy, ambushes are also a tactic real spiders use.
Even a dumb spider knows that a 0 str or dex character puts up ltttle fight.

[Edit] Wow was i that slow to write? i started when there were no replys at all...

[Armads]

Not all vermin are terrible. Colossal Monstrous Scorpions are sick for CR 10. The only way to kill them is via flight, but flight's an instant win against most monsters anyway.

[Darrin]

Not all vermin are terrible. Colossal Monstrous Scorpions are sick for CR 10. The only way to kill them is via flight, but flight's an instant win against most monsters anyway.

The large and huge scorpions aren't too shabby, either... a good way to teach PCs to stay out of grapples. Attack, Improved Grab, and then either constrict damage or sting for poison damage.

[Keld Denar]

That Darn Crab is a vermin...fear the vermin!

But otherwise, the DCs for poisons tend to be low, the ACs tend to be very low, and even the tohits tend to be low. But if there is one thing giant vermin have strong, its hit dice. With hit dice comes size. With size comes grapple modifiers. HUGE grapple modifiers. Monsterous Scorpions and Centipedes have massive grapple mods for their CRs. Grab and GO! Read up on the "move a grapple" rules, then jump out, grab the cleric, and drag him off to a dark hole somewhere.

Don't neglect the miniature cousins of monserous vermin either. Swarms are a nice addition to a standard vermin fight. Make the PCs fight a huge monsterous spider, and a couple of spider swarms. The swarms have the advantage of autohitting, allowing them to weaken the PCs so that the bigger vermin can get their nibbles in.

Something is definitely scary about seeing a huge spider come out of the darkness, and then finding out that its carapace is crawling with swarms of mini-spiders that jump out on any PCs that engage.

Another thing you can do is add templates to your vermin. Psudonatural and fiendish are both low CR templates that give the vermin some neat tricks. Psudonatual gives a 1/day truestrike, great for getting in that one shot before they die. Fiendish gives a smite good ability, which deals damage according to hit dice, which for some of the more advanced vermin can be quite a few. Hell, add multiple templates to them. Most templates are cheap. Add Dark to a spider, and it can HiPS in the shadow of its own web. Lots of nasty stuff like that.

Good luck and good gaming!