What does "D&D is too anime" mean?

[kamikasei]

A spin-off from here.

Various people on these boards argue that D&D is too anime, or becoming too anime, or drawing inspiration from anime in a way that's undesirable, or that this or that feat or class or ability is "too anime".

What's anime?

Now, I know what anime is; I watch a decent amount of it, and several of my favourite shows and movies are anime. I'm consicous therefore of the wide range of genres, styles, moods, tones, etc. that the medium of anime includes. So what I'm asking is, people here who argue that things are "too anime": what do you actually mean?

What I'd like would be for people to answer without recourse to the word "anime" as much as possible. Don't say, "XYZ is clearly anime". Say something like, "XYZ is extremely reminiscent of this or that scene or plot point or ability from this particular show". Just describing something as "too anime" is not going to help clarify your problem with it, which is my aim here, any more than if I described something I didn't like as "too tv-ish" or "too book-ish".

It seems to me that those who use the "too anime" argument are using "anime" as code for some particular set of horrible, unpleasant associations that they recognize but I, unfortunately, cannot. Breaking this code or arguing around it has derailed a few other threads recently, so I'm hoping we can cut this Gordian knot in a dedicated thread here instead.

3... 2... 1... explicate!

[Khanderas]

I would assume a deviation from low-power, gritty versions of DnD, where the heroes survive by luck and wit and rerolls en equal measures.
Later versions (according to many posters here atleast) get a powerscale that reminds them of Anime. The deal where you start off relativly normal, a couple of months into the game you toss mountains. Eventually gods become bugs.

I have exaggerated immensly here, for umm... clarity ?

[Jack Zander]

Anime to me is two characters standing off to each other and taking turns to throw punches/spells/maneuvers. Most of the time these battles result in one or two misses, or a technique that renders one person helpless for a little bit until they get over the effects while the other gloats and does something ineffectual with their time. Once that stage is over, the killing blow occurs and the enemy is dead in one hit.

Yeah... that pretty much sums up DnD right there. I guess I can see their argument now.

[horseboy]

I would assume a deviation from low-power, gritty versions of DnD, where the heroes survive by luck and wit and rerolls en equal measures.
Later versions (according to many posters here atleast) get a powerscale that reminds them of Anime. The deal where you start off relativly normal, a couple of months into the game you toss mountains. Eventually gods become bugs.

I have exaggerated immensly here, for umm... clarity ?

Hasn't that always been true of D&D though? There was an Immortals box set for a reason. Granted it took a couple of years instead of months, but the amount of time is really the only difference there.

[kamikasei]

So, is it just "anime = shonen fighting anime", then? Does anyone who makes "too anime" claims want to speak up and say that they mean something different by it?

[Reinboom]

That's just one style of anime however...
I think people default to the cash cows, and larger name animes that got translated out...
Like Naruto, Dragon Ball + Z, Inuyasha, Yu Yu Hakushou, Rorouni Kenshin etc.

Which are a rather specific set of anime... and in no way a decent representation of anime as a whole.
They could also be thinking of wuxia...

Really, I don't take "D&D is too anime" as an insult to D&D, I'm taking it as an insult to anime.

[Icewalker]

Well, I think partially it is referring to how in many animes the way fighting ends up is different from reality, or even a reality accepting whatever magic and such exists in those worlds.

[Tengu]

They usually mean that, kamikasei. Or, more precisely, people accuse DND of getting too anime each time a class that's not a caster receives an ability that people wouldn't be able to do in real life - as if only casters could receive more options, and others were forced to swing swords or disarm traps the same way at level 20 as they did at level 1, just be much better at it.

[Swordguy]

There are several anime tropes that seem to be increasingly present in D&D, specifically in TOB.

Note: I'm aware there are several anime styles. I'm talking about the "fighting" anime, such as Inuyasha, DB, DBZ, DB GT, Naruto, etc. that are popularly accessible to the populace, and are what the "layman" thinks of when anime is mentioned.

1) Complicated technique names: This is a pure fluff thing. People know that they don't have to yell out the technique when performing it. However, listen to the post-battle report:

"I started the fight against the giant creature with a Swooping Dragon Strike, leaping far over him and cleaving his shoulder during the flight. He turned to face me and with a flash, winked into invisibility. Fortunately, I knew to activate my Hunter's Sense, and lo! I could smell the stink of the leather straps holding his armor together. Judging from the scent, he was sneaking towards me, so I waited until he was right on top of me before assuming Wolf Climbs the Mountain. He tried to strike back, blinking back into view, but his bulk hindered the attack, and so I was able to make a Hamstring Attack that brought him crashing to the ground. I climbed upon his chest and finished him off with a Fountain of Blood. His friends, dumbstruck at the ease by which he fell, turned and ran..."

Without knowing any details about the environment, weapons used, culture, etc, I asked my wife (a gamer) if she could identify where the above passage came from. She thought for a moment, and asked if it was from Inuyasha or Naruto or one of the shows on late night Adult Swim. Why? The technique names sound like the anime trope of (verb)+(animal)+(synonym for attack).

2) Mental pictures seem to mirror what we see in anime. An example is the Swooping Dragon Strike, above. It mirrors the huge amount of "hang time" one sees in anime on a regular basis, with the deadly strike in the middle. Ghost Blade is another. I reference Fist of the North Star, where people are striking so fast they're generating afterimages and people are fooled into blocking those. That's Ghost Blade to a T.

3) Inherent ability, not items. In general, anime heroes have inborn abilities that allow them to defy physics (hang time, cleave through rock, striking so fast you create doubles of your weapon that the enemy thinks are real, being so light on your feet you can run across heavily broken ground without a thought, etc.), whereas if WESTERN-style non-cartoon heroes (just to head off the Brock Sampson argument) want to do something similar, they need an item or external magic. Inborn power that you unlock as you get more experienced is an Eastern trope that stems from cultures based on personal enlightenment. Western power tends to derive from "stuff", be it a sword (Excalibur), a ring (o' the Neiblung), a book (spellbook anyone?), or other item - stemming from a culture that is, in fact, materialistic.

3a) The fact that characters that are supposed to be not especially "magical" (fighters, etc), and rely on sheer skill get abilities that are supernatural (in the "people can't do that" sense, not the RAW definition) in nature. If items were giving them these powers, people wouldn't bat an eye. That fact that they get them as inherent abilities rubs people wrong (see above).


There's some other stuff, but those are, I feel, the big three. They're almost ENTIRELY fluff-based, and yes, you can change fluff. But the question becomes should we have to?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah. I think that probably most of the people making those accusations have only really seen Dragon Ball Z and its ilk (or in the case of the younger ones, Naruto and its ilk).

For the record, anime is not a genre. It's one country's entire animation industry. At its narrowest, it's a collection of styles and common tropes.

Swordguy ninja: ...you know, maybe it's because I've grown to appreciate anime over the past six months or so, but besides the goofy names which I have no trouble ignoring, I just don't see anything wrong with any of that. Why shouldn't everyone in a magical fantasy-land have access to supernatural abilities? Why should everything our characters do depend on whatever glow-in-the-dark magical junk they're carting around? That sounds like damn good ideas to me, and a refreshing change from hidebound fantasy conventions; not "lol Dragon Ball ripoff".

[Dode]

Vancian spellcasting like in the ToB is "anime".

And "Swooping Dragon Strike" is really wordy and stupid and thus anime.
As opposed to "Combat Reflexes Whirlwind Attack" or "Shock Trooper Power Leap Attacked Battle Jump", which is terse and not anime.

[Ganurath]

You know, I just had a realization. People have no right to complain about the arbitrary power levels of anime characters and minmaxing through knowledge of concrete stats and rules in the same lifetime.

On topic, I had no idea D&D was turning anime. Perhaps I should get ToB.

[Swordguy]

Yeah. I think that probably most of the people making those accusations have only really seen Dragon Ball Z and its ilk (or in the case of the younger ones, Naruto and its ilk).

For the record, anime is not a genre. It's one country's entire animation industry. At its narrowest, it's a collection of styles and common tropes.

You're right. I haven't seen much anime. I watched it when I was much younger (when all that was on was DBZ) and decided I didn't like the tropes that were presented, nor the animation style, with a very few exceptions (Macross series stuff mainly). I've watched some with friends who do like the genre since then, and have seen some stuff I've enjoyed (Cowboy Bebop) and a whole lot I haven't.

But here's the thing. THAT'S ALL MOST PEOPLE HAVE SEEN. The denizens of this board do NOT a majority make. Most of you could be considered anime conisseurs - you've tried lots of stuff, far more than the average viewer.

And, just because there's more styles of anime out there than the fighting anime, doesn't mean that ToB stuff doesn't resemble it more than it resembles rational or realistic fighting techniques, of which there's a whole lot of really cool ones that WoTC could have drawn from.

[Reinboom]

Vancian spellcasting like in the ToB is "anime".

And "Swooping Dragon Strike" is really wordy and stupid and thus anime.
As opposed to "Combat Reflexes Whirlwind Attack" or "Shock Trooper Power Leap Attacked Battle Jump", which is terse and not anime.

Vancian spellcasting = Wizard.
Vancian is a style of magic casting used by a single author, and in no way is like ToB at all.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Except the "preparing and expending a finite number of techniques in your mind through meditation each day" part.

[Swordguy]

Vancian spellcasting like in the ToB is "anime".

And "Swooping Dragon Strike" is really wordy and stupid and thus anime.
As opposed to "Combat Reflexes Whirlwind Attack" or "Shock Trooper Power Leap Attacked Battle Jump", which is terse and not anime.

Ha.

Because "Shock Trooper Power Leap Attacked Battle Jump" isn't an actual name of a technique. It's a bunch of game terms strung together. The technique names in the ToB are, in fact, the technique names.

Secondly, Vancian spellcasting is in fact NOT anime, insofar as it came from the east. Japanese spellcasting in mythology tends to be quite subtle and prayerful. Shugenja are more priests (in the religious sense) than spellcasters. Western sources came up with the "throw fireballs around" style of spellcasting, and the Japanese took it and incorporated it into their animation because it looked a whole lot cooler than a guy chanting and having the gaki dissipate.

Thirdly, Vancian spellcasting has NOTHING TO DO with the ToB, except for the wierd memorization of techniques on a daily basis thing.

EDIT: @ Nerd-o-Rama:

Swordguy ninja: ...you know, maybe it's because I've grown to appreciate anime over the past six months or so, but besides the goofy names which I have no trouble ignoring, I just don't see anything wrong with any of that. Why shouldn't everyone in a magical fantasy-land have access to supernatural abilities? Why should everything our characters do depend on whatever glow-in-the-dark magical junk they're carting around? That sounds like damn good ideas to me, and a refreshing change from hidebound fantasy conventions; not "lol Dragon Ball ripoff".

For me at least, I play D&D to play with Western Fantasy tropes. Magic is rare and powerful and always exacts a price. It's not something for everybody - but even if you don't have it, you can make your way in the world through sheer guts and skill. D&D has lost that from its earlier roots (though it didn't help itself once it started requiring people to have magic items to attack certain critters). If I want a magic-heavy land where everyone has plentiful magical abilities, I'll go play another game (and am about to). I don't play D&D to break new ground in gaming, I play it specifically TO indulge in those "hidebound fantasy conventions." It's nice to be able to know exactly where you stand sometimes.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I haven't actually read any Vance. What, exactly, else is there to "Vancian spellcasting"?

[Xefas]

I think when people are referring to "D&D is too anime", they're complaining about the core spellcasters that've been in the game since the very beginning.

I mean, how many wizards do you see flying around, shooting laser beams at people, and who then teleport away when they get in trouble?

Sure you don't have to say "Instant Transmission!" every time you use Teleport or Dimension Door, but that doesn't make it any less like DBZ.

As for all the good anime...well, they just don't know about those.

EDIT: I feel compelled to start a project converting all the spell names into shounen fighting anime-type technique names. By everyone's logic, that makes it like anime.

[illathid]

EDIT: I feel compelled to start a project converting all the spell names into shounen fighting anime-type technique names. By everyone's logic, that makes it like anime.

That sounds like a fun companion to this thread on the WotC boards. I'd be willing to help if you start the thread.


You may now resume your on topic discussion.

[Reinboom]

EDIT: I feel compelled to start a project converting all the spell names into shounen fighting anime-type technique names. By everyone's logic, that makes it like anime.

Please, don't insult anime more.

(J/K, and I would fully support that project... just... wouldn't use it :P)

[Kantolin]

One thing jumped out at me.

Secondly, Vancian spellcasting is in fact NOT anime, insofar as it came from the east. Japanese spellcasting in mythology tends to be quite subtle and prayerful. Shugenja are more priests (in the religious sense) than spellcasters. Western sources came up with the "throw fireballs around" style of spellcasting, and the Japanese took it and incorporated it into their animation because it looked a whole lot cooler than a guy chanting and having the gaki dissipate.

How is 'The Japanese took it and incorporated it into their animation' different from 'This is what people think when they say 'anime'?

Would stating: 'The Japanese took it and now it is what people think of when they think 'anime'' work? As regardless of where it came from, I believe the stereotypical 'That game system feels too anime' means flying around and shooting lazers.

Also, count me in another school that finds 'Shock Trooper' and 'Desert Wind' to be about similar in style. But hey.

[Tengu]

On a completely side note, I think it'd be fun if people meant that DND is becoming more like FLCL, and it actually happened.

[Artanis]

*revs up a guitar*

[Reinboom]

On a completely side note, I think it'd be fun if people meant that DND is becoming more like FLCL, and it actually happened.

I support this even more so...
Flying insane extraworldly women in bunny outfits flying on a guitar only to pick it up from under them to strike a multiple story tall gun wielding hand?
Hell yes.

But really, I just want to stat out atomsk.

[Xefas]

On a completely side note, I think it'd be fun if people meant that DND is becoming more like FLCL, and it actually happened.

We have Warforged and you can enchant a Greataxe to use Shout or Irresistible Dance when you pretend to strum it to simulate a guitar. And, while "Chaotic Horny" isn't an official alignment, I'm sure most groups wouldn't have a problem swinging it.

Also, I'm gonna go make that thread now...

[Swordguy]

One thing jumped out at me.

How is 'The Japanese took it and incorporated it into their animation' different from 'This is what people think when they say 'anime'?

Would stating: 'The Japanese took it and now it is what people think of when they think 'anime'' work? As regardless of where it came from, I believe the stereotypical 'That game system feels too anime' means flying around and shooting lazers.

Also, count me in another school that finds 'Shock Trooper' and 'Desert Wind' to be about similar in style. But hey.

It's not "anime" because it's generally accepted as being magic in a western idiom. Go watch some old sword-and-sorcery flicks sometime (pre 1980), and you'll see magic that can at times (and special effects budget allowing) resemble that of D&D. In short, western audiences had it first, and we've had it repackaged and sold back to us in anime format - but we also get to see it in "regular" form (Mummy movies, D&D movies, Conan, etc) that aren't in any way anime. Therefore, it's not inherently "anime" as much as a swordsman leaping 50 feet in the air and cutting as he falls is.

Also, I'm trying to present a rational and calm analytic argument here (especially regarding the difference between inherent ability and granted ability). The hyperbole I'm getting back from some folks is distressing (this isn't a shot at Kantolin). Counter the arguments with fact, not rhetoric. Don't set up straw men. Please.

[Mewtarthio]

On a completely side note, I think it'd be fun if people meant that DND is becoming more like FLCL, and it actually happened.

The sad thing is, people would think that was less "anime."

By the way, FLCL has already been incorporated in Unearthed Arcana.

[TheThan]

It also has to do with abilities and powers that give a character the look or feel of an anime character. Take for instance monkey grip, it lets you wield an oversized sword much easier (doesn’t actually reduce any penalties though). Cloud Strife from final fantasy VII, Guts from berserk, Sano from Rorouni Kenshin, and dozens of other anime characters all wield ridiculously huge swords. Now players can create a character that wields a gigantic sword just like their favorite anime characters.

Another thing (which is as much a product of wuxia as anime) is the superhuman power some seem to have. A lot of people call it wirefu, its characters with powers that seem inhuman without the use of magic. In classic DnD, its acceptable for a wizard to cast blur, and leave an afterimage, or cast haste and move faster than the eye can see or cast fly and fly around the battlefield. But for a warrior of some kind to be able to perform the same sorts of actions without the use of magic is unacceptable and therefore deemed anime.

Personally it doesn’t bother me too much, anime is becoming more mainstream, so its more likely to get mixed up in dnd (heck I wouldn’t be surprised to see harry potter type stuff running amok in the next eddition).
In fact my preferred setting is a homebrewed oriental adventures setting.

[Miles Invictus]

Guys, I think Dode was being sarcastic.

ToB undoubtedly has been influenced by anime. Crack open the book and read the first few chapters, if you don't believe me -- the authors themselves 'fess up to it. That's not a good reason to deride it entirely. The crunch itself is great: melee characters have a variety of tactical options, something only spellcasters used to have. I don't care for the fluff, but the crunch is good enough that I'm willing to ignore it.

I suspect that the equivalent 4th edition maneuvers will have more "grounded" names and descriptions anyway, making some of this discussion moot.

[Dode]

Ha.

Because "Shock Trooper Power Leap Attacked Battle Jump" isn't an actual name of a technique. It's a bunch of game terms strung together. The technique names in the ToB are, in fact, the technique names.

You speak as if "techniques" aren't in fact game terms. But that is obviously wrong, because they're in the ToB as game terms, specifically, finite special attacks. So I guess I misheard you.

Thirdly, Vancian spellcasting has NOTHING TO DO with the ToB, except for the wierd memorization of techniques on a daily basis thing.

Yeah, nothing at all to do with it except for the defining feature.