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    Default dee-n-dee and the moe

    When you compare D&D to a MMORPG, what do you mean by that?

    Mindless grinding? Class, item, and monsters structured to provide balance, at the sacrifice of storyline and verisimilitude? Limits to play to retain class balance? Reduction of class abilities and the like to a semi-coherent collection of quasi-magic powers? What?

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Essentially this means:

    -Less choice in Character creation
    -The implementation of mechanics found in MMORPGS (Spawning, cool-down times, and that thing that makes monsters attack you)
    -Monsters with simplified attacks
    -Less puzzles and politics and more hack n slash.
    -Classes that multiclass less
    -Classes with "paths"
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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLogman View Post
    Essentially this means:

    -Less choice in Character creation
    -The implementation of mechanics found in MMORPGS (Spawning, cool-down times, and that thing that makes monsters attack you)
    -Monsters with simplified attacks
    -Less puzzles and politics and more hack n slash.
    -Classes that multiclass less
    -Classes with "paths"
    All apart from the bolded parts looks more like previous editions to me.

    And for some reason I thought that this thread will be about moe characters in DND. Which would be very weird.

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu View Post
    moe characters in DND. Which would be very weird.
    So did I... I guess the equivilant would be finding girls with poorly balanced below par classes sexy.

    Adding more levels is also considered an MMO style thing, despite D&D having had level number creep in all its editions since the 70s.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2007-12-25 at 07:27 AM.
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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    Adding more levels is also considered an MMO style thing, despite D&D having had level number creep in all its editions since the 70s.
    In theory 4E lowers the level limit from 3.5's Inifinite (with the ELH) to 30. Or there's the cynical "D&D IS WOW! MADE BY BLIZZARDS OF THE COAST!" approach and say since WoW added 10 levels in its expansion, obviously 4th Ed is adding 10 levels to copy them.

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Wasn't there just a Thread about this a couple of days ago?

    Dungeons & Dragons and MMORPGs
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-12-25 at 08:36 AM.
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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu View Post
    And for some reason I thought that this thread will be about moe characters in DND. Which would be very weird.
    Same. Caused me to stare at the screen for about second with an "Huh?!" look in my face.

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    Adding more levels is also considered an MMO style thing, despite D&D having had level number creep in all its editions since the 70s.
    OD&D had 36 levels plus immortals rules (5 box set) when I started playing. AD&D listed levels from 1 to 24 or so (varied by class), but didn't have any actual limit. It wasn't until 2e that levels were limited to 20, then the epic level handbook came out...

    So for me it seems like the level limits were going down for a while.

    I think the power creep within each level, faster leveling, and more focus on combat remind me the most of video games. Also we are moving away from medievil roleplaying side and more towards the high fantasy end of the spectrum.
    Last edited by Tallis; 2007-12-25 at 11:51 AM.
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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu View Post
    And for some reason I thought that this thread will be about moe characters in DND. Which would be very weird.
    We need stats for this. Go to it, homebrew monkeys!

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    We need stats for this. Go to it, homebrew monkeys!
    Hmm. Class, feat, or template? I'm thinking the last one.

    ------------------------------------
    A rough sketch:
    +6 cha, -2 all other stats.
    Charisma to AC when not wearing armor.
    Making a hostile action against the moe character requires a will saving throw, DC 10+cha+1/2 level.
    -2 to all dex-based skills (dojikko is the staple of moe).
    -6 to intimidate.
    +6 to diplomacy.
    LA +0.

    Prerequesites:
    Female or very cute and girly boy.
    Non-evil alignment.
    ------------------------------------

    How does it look?
    Last edited by Tengu; 2007-12-25 at 07:45 PM.

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallis View Post
    OD&D had 36 levels plus immortals rules (5 box set) when I started playing.
    You mean basic D&D? Which had supplements which purely increased the level cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallis View Post
    AD&D listed levels from 1 to 24 or so (varied by class)
    20 levels may have been average though.

    So for me it seems like the level limits were going down for a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallis View Post
    I think the power creep within each level, faster leveling, and more focus on combat remind me the most of video games. Also we are moving away from medievil roleplaying side and more towards the high fantasy end of the spectrum.


    Dungeons and Dragons has never been about medieval roleplay. The whole fact that you go down ruins and caves to kill monsters should have given it away. If this was a game about bloodthirsty gangsters exploiting starving peasants and calling themselves civilised Kings as they fought off people who could were actualyl literate and able to be civil to each other while a monotheistic Church lined their pockets like gangsters while complaining like peasants, then it would be medieval roleplay. Instead it's about killing a bizzare mixture of Greek mythological monsters and beasts thought up by a couple of lonely old racist men in the 30s-50s. You want realism? Underground basements and catacombs, left unattended tend to fill up with rubble and become unenterable while any treasures inside are completely broken by the time they're recovered.

    D&D has always been High Fantasy, it's just that High Fantasy has changed.

    So I'm being unfair, meh

    The reason there's more focus on combat is that somebody has finally worked out that the Trap Rules sucked. You can't say that 3rd edition has more of a focus on combat than 2nd edition and say that 2nd edition didn't bog you down with rules if you strayed away from combat.

    Roleplay has always been what you do, not what the rules focus on. The way you play D&D is probably better than the games designer's intent but do not mistake it for the games designer's intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu View Post
    +6 cha, -2 all other stats
    No, moe is the use of inane kinks as a substitute for a properly worked out personality. Moe characters should not have something that makes them more insteresting people, they should impose a penalty on sense motive checks to stop people noticing how uncharismatic they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu View Post
    Non-evil alignment.
    Those twins from Black Lagoon would disagree.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2007-12-25 at 07:48 PM.
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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    No, moe is the use of inane kinks as a substitute for a properly worked out personality. Moe characters should not have something that makes them more insteresting people, they should impose a penalty on sense motive checks to stop people noticing how uncharismatic they are.
    That depends on the interpretation of Charisma. That strong desire to cuddle and comfort such characters that only those of strong will can oppose sounds like charisma to me, even if of the unintentional sort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    Those twins from Black Lagoon would disagree.
    Not familiar with this series, I'm afraid - I don't really know a lot of moe first-hand. Scratch that prerequesite then.
    Last edited by Tengu; 2007-12-25 at 07:55 PM.

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    You mean basic D&D? Which had supplements which purely increased the level cap.
    Nah, I expect he means OD&D, the original three booklets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    Dungeons and Dragons has never been about medieval roleplay. The whole fact that you go down ruins and caves to kill monsters should have given it away. If this was a game about bloodthirsty gangsters exploiting starving peasants and calling themselves civilised Kings as they fought off people who could were actualyl literate and able to be civil to each other while a monotheistic Church lined their pockets like gangsters while complaining like peasants, then it would be medieval roleplay. Instead it's about killing a bizzare mixture of Greek mythological monsters and beasts thought up by a couple of lonely old racist men in the 30s-50s. You want realism? Underground basements and catacombs, left unattended tend to fill up with rubble and become unenterable while any treasures inside are completely broken by the time they're recovered.

    D&D has always been High Fantasy, it's just that High Fantasy has changed.
    That stupid gangster analogy that has recently become popular really annoys me, as I consider it very misleading, but I otherwise agree with the thrust of this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    So I'm being unfair, meh
    Heh, nearly missed that...
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Moe, as it is known, has never really appealed to me. I have my kinks, but they don't include weak-willed whiny girls in maid costumes. I mean, I get all the moe I can stand from only two shows, one of which is making fun of the concept and one of which has the character in question surrounded by the single manliest crew of ass-kickers in the history of television, (and a rifle-toting action girl to suit my fanservice needs) so it cancels out.
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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Well, everyone knows that real geeks have a high will save, so they can easily resist moe's fake charm. And I can only assume that the second show is Nadesico.

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Gurren-Lagann, actually (Nia counting as Moe, at least when she isn't evil).

    Nadesico didn't really have any moe characters, just idiots and girls whose catch-phrase is "idiots". Also, "manly" isn't how I'd describe their crew. Not if I didn't want to laugh my ass off when applying it to Akito or go home in parts after applying it to most of the rest of the crew.
    Last edited by Nerd-o-rama; 2007-12-25 at 09:52 PM.
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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Well, the majority of what I know of both of these shows comes from these forums and TV Tropes, so my guessing can be really horribly off-target sometimes. Please don't ask me to watch them, I still need to catch up with Avatar.

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    They're your next two after it. Except maybe Megas XLR, which I need to watch myself.

    Man, I watch too many giant robot shows.
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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    They're your next two after it. Except maybe Megas XLR, which I need to watch myself.

    Man, I watch too many giant robot shows.
    I really wish I knew why I've been on such a Megas kick all of a sudden. Somebody reminded me of it, and I've been watching You-tubes of it all day ever sense.

    To the OP, I'd have to say this is more of an egg and chicken thing. Given that most MMO's are based off of some permutation of D&D, and now D&D is just harvesting the seeds sown.
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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu View Post
    Well, everyone knows that real geeks have a high will save, so they can easily resist moe's fake charm. And I can only assume that the second show is Nadesico.
    That's silly. I'm as geeky as they come and am completely addicted to moe. How anyone can not love moe is beyond me.
    My avatar is from Wanko to Kurusou.

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by bluish_wolf View Post
    That's silly. I'm as geeky as they come and am completely addicted to moe. How anyone can not love moe is beyond me.
    Thing is, from what I gather, due to its nebulous and ill-defined nature, apparently everyone understands moe in a different manner (making it quite useless as a term), so before making such statements, you first have to tell them what you particularly are understanding for moe.

    In fact I had always previously thought it was a way of signifying a particular type of liking of a character (involving more the kind of warm fuzzies and protecting instinct one gets from seeing one's younger sister playing around than the kind of liking based on personality empathy), not a kind of character itself . Incidentally, I realized I was probably wrong and had to research the term again after seeing Haruhi, as moe as I thought it was to be understood just didn't seem to be appliable to Mikuru in any way, shape or form no matter how much thought I put into it

    Also, Tengu is quite right: experienced geeks have enough genre savvyness and unconscious trope knowledge that their Will saves for this kind of things can get fairly high. Your case might be a case of voluntarily failing saves due to your like of the theme, much like most gamers keep voluntarily failing our Will saves to disbelieve while playing tabletop RPGs

    ...And I am just now realizing that we have gone horribly off-topic. Shutting up now...
    Last edited by Drascin; 2007-12-26 at 09:47 AM.

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    not a kind of character itself . Incidentally, I realized I was probably wrong and had to research the term again after seeing Haruhi, as moe as I thought it was to be understood just didn't seem to be appliable to Mikuru in any way, shape or form no matter how much thought I put into it
    Haruhi also calls Mikuru a Lolita, which is just wrong no matter how you look at it, so I would take anything she says with a grain of salt.
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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    They're your next two after it. Except maybe Megas XLR, which I need to watch myself.

    Man, I watch too many giant robot shows.
    Let's see can I resist that direct commant with a Will saving throw:

    [roll]1d20+5[/roll]

    EDIT: Gah, I can't even make the forum roller work for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluish_wolf View Post
    Haruhi also calls Mikuru a Lolita, which is just wrong no matter how you look at it, so I would take anything she says with a grain of salt.
    Well, in Japan that word means the certain style more than actual age, and is rarely used in a dirty way. Most Japanese who use it don't even know where the word lolita came from.

    And well, I find some elements of moe, for example already mentioned dojikko, quite charming. But only if they are just aspects of an otherwise interesting and more or less strong female character, not the defining value.
    Last edited by Tengu; 2007-12-26 at 11:12 AM.

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by bluish_wolf View Post
    That's silly. I'm as geeky as they come and am completely addicted to moe. How anyone can not love moe is beyond me.
    Usually because they try too hard. Me personally, I loathe incompetent people. The notion of dating a female Shinji fills me with nothing but dread.
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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    I always considered moe to be a particular feeling you get when you look at certain characters. Kind of like, when you say a character is hot, it's because it makes you feel hot. So, when people say they don't like moe, it's similar to someone saying they don't like hot people. It just strikes me as odd.
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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    It seems the misunderstanding comes from what moe might mean:

    1. A cute character that makes you feel warm.
    2. A character whose cuteness comes solely from its weaknesses.

    Bluish_wolf uses the first definitions, most of the other people the second one.

    Did I say this thread is not about moe characters in DND? Seems it is now.

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    I think it should be a template, too.

    It has a CHA-4 penalty and the following benefits:
    - adds Mix Drinks to the class skills
    - Mix Drinks +5
    - BAB+10, but only applied to attacks directed against the character him/herself
    - Deal with Depression+3
    - Fail to Deal with Depression+6
    - Aura of Repell Other Gender; every person of the opposite gender who encounters this character must roll a DC 35 Will Save, or flee in utter panic.



    ...what?
    Last edited by Winterwind; 2007-12-26 at 01:17 PM.
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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    I think it should be a template, too.

    It has a CHA-4 penalty and the following benefits:
    - adds Mix Drinks to the class skills
    - Mix Drinks +5
    - BAB+10, but only applied to attacks directed against the character him/herself
    - Deal with Depression+3
    - Fail to Deal with Depression+6
    - Aura of Repell Other Gender; every person of the opposite gender who encounters this character must roll a DC 35 Will Save, or flee in utter panic.



    ...what?
    No, no, Winterwind. Moe Szyslak is an individual NPC, not a template, and should be statted as such, even if he does have a "the world hates me" template on him apart from his class levels that we need to model. Though we might need a special NPC PrC of Master Barkeep for him.

    (Now seriously, that made me laugh )

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu View Post
    It seems the misunderstanding comes from what moe might mean:

    1. A cute character that makes you feel warm.
    2. A character whose cuteness comes solely from its weaknesses.

    Bluish_wolf uses the first definitions, most of the other people the second one.

    Did I say this thread is not about moe characters in DND? Seems it is now.
    Exactly. That is the main problem with discussing moe: that it's so damn undefined that nobody in the debate is on the exact same grounds as the others. It's like debating houseruled games - since no one's game is the same, there's no way to argue meaningfully. This is why I opened with my own definition of moe - so that people knew where I was coming from in case I started rambling wildly as I'm wont to do at times .

    And yeah, it seems we have officially hijacked this thread . Now, to think how to insert the moe phenomenon in D&D... if we work hard enough, we might even give some aneurysms to a few people running around

    Quote Originally Posted by horseboy View Post
    Usually because they try too hard. Me personally, I loathe incompetent people. The notion of dating a female Shinji fills me with nothing but dread.
    Mmmmm... As I see it, Shinji wasn't just incompetent - that, I'd forgive easily. After all, I know that there are people who just don't seem to get anything right whatever they do, and I'm not mean enough to fault them for it (of course, my being so understanding could be due to the fact that I'm basically one of them ), and hey, the pressure of being an Eva pilot would be enough to make anyone fumble anyway. No, the thing that makes me - and, I gather, quite a large segment of the viewers - dislike Shinji is the fact that a lot of time he whines far more than the circumstances would warrant. Some, because they see it as weak, me, because I see it as egotistical, but in general, it's not an endearing trait, and I join you in that last statement.

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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    In fact I had always previously thought it was a way of signifying a particular type of liking of a character (involving more the kind of warm fuzzies and protecting instinct one gets from seeing one's younger sister playing around than the kind of liking based on personality empathy), not a kind of character itself . Incidentally, I realized I was probably wrong and had to research the term again after seeing Haruhi, as moe as I thought it was to be understood just didn't seem to be appliable to Mikuru in any way, shape or form no matter how much thought I put into it
    Actually, it might make sense if you consider the fan-theory that
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    Mikuru is Kyon's time-displaced little sister. I think there's enough canon evidence (and squick factor) to make this untrue, but you never know.


    Regarding Shinji...he whines a lot, but do the circumstances really not warrant it? I don't like the character, but I don't think he was portrayed unreasonably either, given the amount of **** that happened to him.

    Great, now I'm going off-topic from the off-topic tangent.
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    Default Re: dee-n-dee and the moe

    Shinji actually doesn't look moe in the least. He does, however, look like a rearrangement of those three letters (Emo), and has the Butt Monkey template. If someone would just make him confront his issues he'd come off as a pretty normal bloke.

    Hmm...shouldn't we build Moe-Moe (X) templates instead of a single general one? For example, one Moe-Moe template could grant bonuses on tripping yourself and Diplomacy, while another one gives you the Helloooooooooooo Nurse! Template + goodies.

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