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Thread: Expert or monk

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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Expert or monk

    Who has the larger chance of beating a level 20 wizard, a level 20 expert or monk?

    Who'd win in a fight monk or expert?
    Last edited by Emperor Demonking; 2007-12-28 at 05:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Demonking View Post
    Who has the larger chance of beating a level 20 wizard, a level 20 expert or monk?

    Who'd win in a fight monk or expert?
    so long as they get PC WBL i'd go with the expert, since they can pick their skills and have more of them they can UMD-FAKE-CAST better. plus they can sneak and diplomance better if that's their thing. wish it wan't the case butt there it is..
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Expert can bake cakes better.

    Expert bakes cake and gives it to wizard.

    Expert wins.
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Ummm...A monk has got 18 class skills. The expert can choose 10 skills. And Diplomacy IS on the monk's class skills. This is pretty much over-the-top. Even a monk can win this. One stunning fist and the Expert is down. UMD could be the answer to everything...
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Expert can pick 10 skills of ANYTHING. This means he can take the synergy skills for Diplomacy.
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    And diplomacy can't be used on PCs. .

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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    You're assuming that the Wizard is a PC. It could be an NPC-on-NPC fight.
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebo_ View Post
    And diplomacy can't be used on PCs. .
    Who says the wizard or the monk or the expert are PCs?
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    No one, but diplomacy isn't really an option in a Vs. thread, is it? Not against your adversary. But in that case, neither of them get PC wealth, which makes it easier for the monk.
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Nope. Monk actually relies more on high-gold equipment than other characters.

    And yes, diplomacy is an option. Remember, its only a -10 penalty to do it full round.
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    During buffing, the monk pokes his ears out. Oh bummer, your build sucks.

    Next!

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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Nope. Monk actually relies more on high-gold equipment than other characters.
    A lot of people say that, but I hardly find that true. NPC wealth is what again? Nearly zippo, as I remember it. At such low prices, the monk does get an advantage, I think. But that's just my opinion.
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Ne0 View Post
    No one, but diplomacy isn't really an option in a Vs. thread, is it? Not against your adversary. But in that case, neither of them get PC wealth, which makes it easier for the monk.
    If it's a depressed wizard, they could use it to talk the wizard into suicide
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Expert wins.

    Class skills are UMD, Diplomacy, Decipher Script, Knowledge (arcana), Sense Motive, Bluff, Knowledge (nobility), Tumble, and one more (maybe Truespeak?)

    He binds Naberius via Bind Vestige + Practiced Binder, so he can 'diplo' around as a standard action without the -10. Then he 'diplos' stuff to win, or maybe buys random scrolls and casts from them (since he has so many skill points). He only puts 5 ranks in his skills, besides Tumble, UMD and Diplomacy, for the synergy bonuses. Maybe he abuses Leadership or Polymorph to wtfpwn things.

    Monk? He can't replicate these stuff so easily (since he doesn't have UMD as a class skill, using scrolls is harder for him), and stunning fist can be negated with Necropolitan/Veil of Undeath from scrolls.

    A lot of people say that, but I hardly find that true. NPC wealth is what again? Nearly zippo, as I remember it. At such low prices, the monk does get an advantage, I think. But that's just my opinion.
    I think the Expert gets an advantage, since the 'typical monk' needs to bump quite a few of his stats, while the Expert can just spam cha and con (doesn't need con if he decides to be clever with scrolls).

    It isn't the typical Expert, I admit, but there aren't typical experts, since they're so generic.
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    An Expert could probably trounce a good half the PHB classes with UMD use.

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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    What this means is that UMD is overpowered. Or just that magic items and magic in general is overpowered.

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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Demonking View Post
    Who has the larger chance of beating a level 20 wizard, a level 20 expert or monk?
    That's a good question. In all the many monk-vs-wizard threads (and we get at least one of those a week, recently), every single "viable strategy" for the monk can equally effectively be employed by an expert. And the expert has better class skills, and can do the UMD trick a lot earlier.

    (Suppose we want to hit DC 20 reliably with UMD, we'd need a modifier of 17. Assuming a +2 bonus for some kind of masterwork tool, and a +4 bonus for charisma, that'd be 11 skill ranks. The Expert can do that by level 8, whereas the monk needs to be level 19).

    But yeah, UMD is without doubt the best skill in the game, and several magic items exist that are overpowered.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Ne0 View Post
    Ummm...A monk has got 18 class skills. The expert can choose 10 skills.
    10 skills of whatever you want means the ten best skills.

    A human monk with Int 18 (unlikely) is only maxing 9 skills.

    If you can max less then ten, the Expert is better at skills then you because he can choose the ten skills he wants to put points in, and be at an advantage over someone putting ranks in 9 skills that aren't their first choice.

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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Hmmm...

    I do not think that UMD is THAT powerful. Still, the expert (say, a scientist on magic) could pick the key skills and be quite awesome at emulating some caster abilities.
    However, the expert has little synergy for spells with his class abilities since his class abilities are so few (outside the skills). For instance, a monk with AMF can grapple a wizard with a very good chance to then win. An expert has to devote a lot more effort to do this.
    Other non-caster combatants can make great use of UMDing buff spells (with personal range) to enhance their already good combat prowess, while the expert would have to start from scratch.

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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    However, the expert has little synergy for spells with his class abilities
    Well, neither does the monk.

    For instance, a monk with AMF can grapple a wizard with a very good chance to then lose.
    Fixed that for you.

    Other non-caster combatants can make great use of UMDing buff spells (with personal range) to enhance their already good combat prowess, while the expert would have to start from scratch.
    So the melee class can fight well and has to work to use magical items, whereas the expert can use magical items well and has to work to fight. That seems rather even, which was the point.

    (edit) And of course, since a monk really doesn't fight all that well as compared to an actual melee class, the expert is better than him. QED.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2007-12-28 at 04:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Fixed that for you.
    While I don't agree with the guy that UMD isn't very powerful (Wish can be read from a scroll, for instance), I really don't see how a Wizard who actually got into a grapple with a monk while in an AMF has good chances. Sure, he could avoid ever getting into that grapple, but by then it's too late.

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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    When posters start to resort to editing in other posters' posts and maintain that a wizard in a grapple in AMF has a good chance of winning, that already tells me much....

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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Indon View Post
    While I don't agree with the guy that UMD isn't very powerful (Wish can be read from a scroll, for instance), I really don't see how a Wizard who actually got into a grapple with a monk while in an AMF has good chances. Sure, he could avoid ever getting into that grapple, but by then it's too late.
    So, you're saying that the wizard could prevent the monk from ever grappling. I'm not sure how we progressed down the "If he gets into a grapple" trail after that.
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    So, you're saying that the wizard could prevent the monk from ever grappling. I'm not sure how we progressed down the "If he gets into a grapple" trail after that.
    Easy. Monk can grapple better than expert. And this comparison is what the (somewhat ironic) OP is about.

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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    An expert could conceivably take many ranks in Iaijustsu Focus, too, thus allowing for potentially decent damage in the first round of combat before proceeding to either wave many random magic items about while thinking really hard about how he/she is totally a wizard/cleric/druid or standing there and requesting assistance in an inexplicably irresistable fashion.

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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Demonking View Post
    Who has the larger chance of beating a level 20 wizard, a level 20 expert or monk?

    Who'd win in a fight monk or expert?
    Given that the Expert is an NPC class, I'd go with monk in both cases.

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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Nah, I'd go with teh Expert. Giacomo's monk - well, the only really monk-like thing that he does is grapple, to be honest (oh, and use a dimension door 1/day, sometimes) - the rest is all done either with buffing from a friendly wizard/cleric (which the Expert could get as well), spell-storing rings (see before) and UMD, which the expert is better at.

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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    You know, if you're all going for the expert - who, by the way, could only make such great advantage of the skill at high levels - because of UMD, there's always Able Learner. *rolls eyes*

    Also, grappling? There are quite A LOT of better ways to use a monk's capabilities.
    Last edited by Ne0; 2007-12-29 at 09:27 AM.
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Easy. Monk can grapple better than expert. And this comparison is what the (somewhat ironic) OP is about.

    - Giacomo
    Why? Both have the same BAB, and the Expert can take Improved Grapple with his feats, use a scroll to Shapechange into a creature as big as he can, and then grapple the heck out of the monk, who can't use the scroll as reliably as the Expert. And if the Monk does use the scroll, he has a 45% chance of instantly losing, and if they turn into the same creature, then they'll have the same chance of grappling each other.

    For instance, a monk with AMF can grapple a wizard with a very good chance to then win. An expert has to devote a lot more effort to do this.
    Yeah, he has to pick 2 feats, and then use a scroll, as well as dump 23 skill points into a skill. He's burning cash, but so is the monk.

    When posters start to resort to editing in other posters' posts and maintain that a wizard in a grapple in AMF has a good chance of winning, that already tells me much....
    He's right?

    He actually does have a good chance to lose. The monk's BAB is +15. The monk has improved grapple. His strength modifier's around, say, +5 (could be higher, but it's an AMF. That's a +24 check modifier. The wizard, meanwhile, has 11 ranks in Escape Artist, +4 dex mod, and cast Grease on himself (it doesn't go away in an AMF). That's a +25 check modifier to escape the grapple. The wizard doesn't need to kill the monk in the grapple, he's better off escaping, tumbling away from the AMF, and then flying (since his buffs are no longer suppressed). He has the Escape Artist and Tumble ranks because of his huge int modifier, which is different from going UMD, since escape artist and tumble don't replicate another class's abilities.

    EDIT: @Ne0, Able Learner doesn't change the max ranks you can dump into a skill.
    Last edited by Armads; 2007-12-29 at 07:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Expert or monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Armads View Post
    The wizard, meanwhile, has 11 ranks in Escape Artist, +4 dex mod, and cast Grease on himself (it doesn't go away in an AMF). That's a +25 check modifier to escape the grapple. The wizard doesn't need to kill the monk in the grapple, he's better off escaping, tumbling away from the AMF, and then flying (since his buffs are no longer suppressed).
    I'd just like to ask how many wizards you've seen who actually invested skill points (Maximum, almost, at that) in Escape Artist and Tumble. Likewise, how often do you see a noble and proud 20th level wizard walking around covered in magical bacon fat?

    I'm not arguing that none of these can be present in a wizard. I'm arguing that you've built a wizard opponent who has invested uncharacteristically high amounts into anti-grappling strategies when that is rather contrary to the norm.

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