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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    arkanis's Avatar

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    Default Base Magic Bonus

    So why is there only base attack bonuses and base save bonuses?

    Why not a base defense bonus like in d20 Modern?

    Why not a base magic bonus?

    It seems like it would just be nicer if there were levels of improvement.
    Afterall, armor gives a bonus to AC but it also puts penalties on a character and costs more so its more of a tradeoff than an imbalance.

    Why would Spell DCs increase with higher level spells? Afterall, using a higher level spell is just like using a bigger weapon. It doesn't make it more accurate or efficient, it just makes the effects and damage more powerful. What makes a spell more effective would be a caster's experience using magic.

    Attack: 1d20 + BAB + Ability modifier + Equipment modifier
    Defense: 10 + BDB + Ability modifier + Equipment modifier
    Spell DC: 10 + BMB + Ability modifier + Equipment modifier
    Save: 1d20 + BSB + Ability modifier + Equipment modifier

    It would balance things a bit better wouldn't you think?
    Last edited by arkanis; 2008-01-05 at 12:01 PM.
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    boomwolf's Avatar

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    Default Re: Base Magic Bonus

    Lets see what imbalances it makes...

    1) light melee characters (say rouge?) will be screwed becuase the new defense bonus. they have hard time hitting as it is.

    2)magic is even HARDER to miss now, like it was not overpowered before now each disinigrate can hit with ease.

    3)saving throws got bumped to such a score that several rolls are auto-beat for any level 1 char due to that +10.

    another problem is that WE HAVE BONUSES TO SAVES.


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    StickMan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Base Magic Bonus

    Rules for that kind of system are given in Unearthed Arcana, well for defense.

    Lucky for you Unearthed is one of the few things wizards has put out that is all open game content (well more or less).

    Defense Bonus


    I suggest you also use this variant as well so that armor is still useful.
    Armor As Damage Reduction

    These systems mostly give a boost to Fighter types who use armor. This sadly gives a boost to Codzilla as well to fix that I recommend: Cloistered Cleric . Not what you asked for but hey you can never have to much of a good cleric fix.
    Last edited by StickMan; 2007-12-28 at 02:11 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
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    arkanis's Avatar

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    Default Re: Base Magic Bonus

    The concept would assume that these bonuses would be equalized so that base bonuses could all work together accordingly. You wouldn't just add something in without doing that first. How you do that will be up to the GM using the variant rule. For example, if your saves remained 2 + 1/2 level high and 1/3 level low then you'd have to fit the base magic bonus into that since it affects saves.

    Rogues have no more trouble hitting than average. They have average BAB do they not? That wouldn't be any concern for balance since you'd merely set the AVERAGE accordingly. Rogues would have high defense, average attack, and low magic yes? Or something like that. But the same would go for all classes. The equivalent alterations would mean the rogues still have no more trouble attacking than before, and neither does anyone else.

    I don't think you would use BMB to make attack rolls. Touch attacks would still use an ATTACK bonus, it is only the Spell DC that is altered by a MAGIC bonus.

    Thanks for the links. Those are helpful. ^_^
    Last edited by arkanis; 2007-12-28 at 02:18 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Base Magic Bonus

    I've seen rules work the other way.
    spell roll and defensive roll.
    but you're taking things that start with a roll, and making them static?

    that'll speed things up, but I think it takes away from realism.

    I don't like the idea that if I cast a spell, and it works, then I know it will work every time.

    rolling for the effect is where most of the fun in the game comes from.
    I mean, this works great if your players are huge strategy buffs, but not if they like a grittier style.

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    Behold_the_Void's Avatar

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    Default Re: Base Magic Bonus

    As I understand it, they're doing something like this to 4th Ed.


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    Default Re: Base Magic Bonus

    I think what he is saying:

    Normally, the DC of the saving throw is 10 + Spell Level + Relevant Mods (Casting Stat, item bonuses, class bonuses, feats, etc...)

    He is wanting to give classes a Base Spell Bonus to *replace* the Spell Level in this formula, so it would look like

    DC of Saving Throw is 10 + Base Spell Bonus + Relevant Mods

    Likely, the idea of this is to give all classes a BSB based on how 'arcane' their class is. For example, a Wiz/Sorc would have a 'full BSB' (whatever that would turn out to), wheras the Barbarian and Fighter would have the 'crappy BSB' (whatever that turned out to).

    This would make spells cast from a higher level caster to be more difficult to resist, reguardless of the spell level of the spell itself.

    To give an example:

    Say, for the sake of argument, a Wizard or Sorcerer would have a BSB = 1/2 Class Level (round up). So a 10th level Wiz would have a BSB of 5. He would also be able to cast up to 5th level spells.

    This 10th level Wizard casts Cone of Cold.

    Old System: DC = 10 + 5 (spell level) + Int Mod = 15+Int

    New System: DC = 10+5 (1/2 class level) + Int Mod = 15+Int

    No difference.

    But, say this same 10th level Wizard were to cast a Fireball...

    Old System: DC = 10+3 (spell level) + Int Mod = 13+Int

    New System: DC = 10+5 (1/2 Caster Level) + Int Mod = 15+Int

    In short, he's proposing to Heighten all spell save DC's to the highest spell level available. Or perhaps he can adjust the BSB to reflect some medium road.

    His argument is that the skill of the mage in question should impact the difficulty of the resistance, not the difficulty of the spell.
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    Magnor Criol's Avatar

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    Default Re: Base Magic Bonus

    Also in UA there's the Magic Rating system, which is the same conceptually as this 'base magic bonus' you've suggested. A bit different mechanically.

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    arkanis's Avatar

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    Default Re: Base Magic Bonus

    4th Edition is doing this? Blast, they beat me to it.

    Shneekey's absolutely correct. That is what I meant. An attack bonus helps your attack roll go up, a defense bonus helps your defense go up, why not a magic bonus help spell-potency go up? A fighter can wield a dagger and have just as much a bonus to attack rolls if he wields a greatsword. Why wouldn't the same be such for the spell DC of a wizard casting acid splash or fireball?

    Thanks for the link Magnor. I'd never seen that variant before.
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Base Magic Bonus

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanis View Post
    4th Edition is doing this? Blast, they beat me to it.

    Shneekey's absolutely correct. That is what I meant. An attack bonus helps your attack roll go up, a defense bonus helps your defense go up, why not a magic bonus help spell-potency go up? A fighter can wield a dagger and have just as much a bonus to attack rolls if he wields a greatsword. Why wouldn't the same be such for the spell DC of a wizard casting acid splash or fireball?

    Thanks for the link Magnor. I'd never seen that variant before.
    The Conan campaign setting does just this- uses a magic attack bonus for when sorcerers collide.

    The old Dragon Warriors setting uses a straight Magic Attack/Defence system that worked very well indeed.

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