Of Battle or Horror

[Leon]

I ask of the board what book of the two should i get, both are on hold for me but i can only afford one of them.

i've not had a detailed look at them but there aspects of both that i like from what i've seen.

[Xefas]

Heroes of Battle has rules for doing mass battles and working the engagements of armies. In my experience, this is a rare occurrence unless the campaign is worked around it specifically, and a campaign focusing entirely on warfare is probably going to be crap. Crap, in the sense that one could just as easily use a different system more inclined for that sort of thing.

Heroes of Horror has a really terrible "taint" mechanic that should never be used by anyone. However, it has the Dread Necromancer and Archivist, which are both really fun/interesting/useful classes.

All in all, the new mechanics they bring are both garbage, but one has awesome classes. You decide.

[Kurald Galain]

Horror, because D&D really does a rather poor job at large battles.

[SilverClawShift]

Dread Necromancer for the win!

Heroes of Battle isn't very well liked by me or my group. We rarely do anything on a war-scale, and none of the content in the book really leaps out and begs to be used.

Heroes of Horror on the other hand, is dripping with possibilities.

But I'm a horror fan through and through.

[Dorizzit]

Heroes of Horror all the way. Also, taint can be interesting...as long as it gets modified heavily.

[Witch]

Heroes of Battle, I have no experience with, but Heroes of Horror has intrigued me. It has a lot of rather decent fluff, and, imo, does a pretty good job at recommending things to induce more horror in your game. Whether you can personally keep up this atmosphere in a game is up to you, ofcourse. Aside from rather generic advice, not necessarily all bad, it offers the lauded classes Dread Necromancer and Archivist. Beyond those, however, there's a number of prestige classes that seem pretty fun as well, particularly the Dread Witch or the Fiendblooded. I especially liked the ideas for the useage of dreams, as well as the cool effects corruption and depravity can give (though not as a result of Taint, because I dislike all the work that mechanic entails - it'd be better to gain them some other way.) There're also cool ideas on how to handle resurrection to make death scary again. Some of the feats are pretty cool too, allowing you to interpret your dreams to understand their symbolism, or speak with the spirits of the dead.

[bugsysservant]

Heroes of horror. Warfare is rare, and generally used as a plot tool by DMs. And D&D is seriously not built to handle mass combat.

Heroes of Horror has some of the best fluff by WoTC, and while its only major mechanic sucks, both of the classes it offers are very nice. While both are rather specialized books, HoH is definitely the better.

[Wordmiser]

Two members of my group have been dragging Heroes of Battle around with the rest of their books for years.

I've yet to see it opened.

[EvilElitest]

Heros of Battle is good, but only if the Players and the DM are willing to trust each other
from,
EE

[ghost_warlock]

Horror, every time. The Archivist and Dread Necromancer (as well as some of the PrCs) are fun, there's a few very flavorful feats (the Dream Casting line), some new spells; pretty much what posters above said.

My only major criticism (lol) with the book is that, being a supplement emphasizing fear, horror, and the taint of evil, it adds a god whose portfolio is...anger. Wha?

[The_Snark]

Horror, I would say. I should note that I'm not, in general, a fan of horror as a genre (with a few exceptions). Taint is a pretty poor mechanic, but a lot of the classes that don't depend on it are fun, it has some neat character options (the dream spells, that one feat that lets you see the recently dead), and its reccomendations on setting atmosphere and such are fairly good. Particularly the section on dreams.

Heroes of Battle is not terribly useful unless you're running a campaign focused around a war. The mechanics are fairly lackluster, with some decent prestige classes. Most of the rest of it centers on how to run mass battles, or on how to run a campaign so that you don't need the mass battle rules (i.e. have the PCs be commandos, or give objectives in a battle such as felling a particular leader or huge monster and ignore most of the soldiers). Useful if that's what you're going for, but not otherwise. I've never been much of a fan of a campaign focusing entirely around a war. If you're running one, it's probably good, but otherwise...

[Draz74]

What's so bad about the Taint mechanic? How's it different from the UA Taint optional rule? Does the UA version suffer from the same problems that make you all criticize the HoH version?

(I don't have HoH, but I'm intrigued by the idea of replacing the Alignment system with a decent Taint system.)

[tyckspoon]

My only major criticism (lol) with the book is that, being a supplement emphasizing fear, horror, and the taint of evil, it adds a god whose portfolio is...anger. Wha?

Spite, actually. Which is taking the concepts of vengeance and anger and amping them beyond reason. I rather like Cas; there are already plenty of gods and beings to represent fear, evil, undead, and Unknowable Gribblies From Beyond Space. Spite, on the other hand, is a very human(oid) motivation that I find works well for the seed of a horrific event in the 'festering evil' style.

Although Cas could have just as well been a Devil Lord with the same interests. And I don't know what the hell the moose thing is about.

[mabriss lethe]

What's so bad about the Taint mechanic? How's it different from the UA Taint optional rule? Does the UA version suffer from the same problems that make you all criticize the HoH version?

(I don't have HoH, but I'm intrigued by the idea of replacing the Alignment system with a decent Taint system.)

Here's the real problem. The source that UA and HoH both used for the Taint mechanic is Oriental Adventures. Oriental Adventures and the mechanic presented therein was setting specific.... Rokugan. Which was in fact adapted wholesale from the Legend of the Five Rings RPG. The original mechanic works very well in its home system(exploding d10)/setting. It converts horribly to D20 no matter how many times you try it. The corrupted warrior or whatever it's called, is adapted from the Maho Bujin prestige class presented in OA, as is the Blood sorceror...or whatever. It was the Maho Tsukai.

That, in a nutshell, is the problem with the Taint mechanic. It's for a completely different rpg system.

[MammonAzrael]

Here's the real problem. The source that UA and HoH both used for the Taint mechanic is Oriental Adventures. Oriental Adventures and the mechanic presented therein was setting specific.... Rokugan. Which was in fact adapted wholesale from the Legend of the Five Rings RPG. The original mechanic works very well in its home system(exploding d10)/setting. It converts horribly to D20 no matter how many times you try it. The corrupted warrior or whatever it's called, is adapted from the Maho Bujin prestige class presented in OA, as is the Blood sorceror...or whatever. It was the Maho Tsukai.

That, in a nutshell, is the problem with the Taint mechanic. It's for a completely different rpg system.

You guys have mentioned it can work with some serious homebrewing. Have you seen any Taint systems that have been reworked? Can you post the changes/links you'd suggest?

As for the thread, I own neither, but have looked over both, and I have to throw another vote in for Horror. The classes work much better for normal campaigns, and the monsters, suggestions, and so on are more intriguing.

Grab HoB when your group wants to set up(or powers up to the point) of doing a full-scale war. Good stuff for that. And that about it.

[Cuddly]

Heroes of Horrror.

Where else are you gonna find a big stupid axe wielding moose?

[Zenos]

Horror. Seems realy good and the archivist class looks funny.

[Leon]

Looks like Horror has the overwhelming support.

HoB i could see having usage at somepoint in my game (its under devopment while i wait for the Witchfire books to arrive), given the state of play in the Iron Kingdoms. but this "taint" effect sounds like a good thing for Orgoth relics and Thamarites.

Of Classes and PrCs
Dread Commando is what moreso drew my attenion to HoB, cant really remember what else was in for PCs

HoH has the Dread Necro - which i realy like from a cursory glance and from what ive read on here, along with a couple of the PrCs

[GolemsVoice]

Hmm, I, as some of my foreposters, haven't read Heroes of Battle, so I can't comment on this book. But Heroes of Horror is fine. It tells a story, and it makes the reader feel like someone collected really good advice and accepts the reader in his role as a DM. Most DnD books are, and, maybe, must be, just rules without comments. It says: "X can do Y with Z modifiers, because of A". But Heroes of Horror "talks" to you like a person you would discuss your campaign ideas wit. It is like "X makes a creepy effect, you could use it to make it seem like Y had happened. Or, many horror stories apply Z, you might look into it." And it has a cool cover, cool pictures within and stuff. The only disadvantage I could find is that it is A DnD book, meaning that most of the book is about rules. While rules are generaly neccessary, turning into a foul abomination, or having your mind utterly wracked by a beast from beyond mortal imagination only if you don't succeed your Will-Save or have some funny feat isn't very frightening. The book assumes that your players will want to face the horror and bash it with their shiny sticks, and that takes out some of the suspense. But apart from that, I'd recommend it.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

I'm also going to have to say Horror. Battle provides only a few prestige classes and some interesting magic items, by way of useful material.

Horror provides at least two classes, a good bit of sound advice and interesting concepts, and much else besides. It's just a well-produced book.

Plus, the cover is a subtle piece of absolutely hilarity once you realize those are little pieces of Regdar everywhere.

[Necromimesis]

Horror. Every time. One of the best idea/fluff books ever released by WotC, and, while the mechanics may not be the best, it'll get you thinking in ways HoB never will.

[mabriss lethe]

You guys have mentioned it can work with some serious homebrewing. Have you seen any Taint systems that have been reworked? Can you post the changes/links you'd suggest

Play L5R. If that isn't an option, the sourcebooks Rokugan and Fortunes and Winds printed by AEG as d20 suppliments to OA have a more properly adapted version of the Taint. Still not great, but the mechanic is slightly better than what I recall of UA or HoH.

[Chronicled]

I enjoyed some of the PrCs in HoB, but it's not stuff I usually end up using. On the other hand, HoH is superb for beginner DMs, with lots of excellent advice. The Archivist is worse than a Wizard in the hands of a competent powergamer whose DM doesn't know that it should be treated as one, but if it's reined in a bit (as in, keep an eye on all Cleric domain scrolls that they're allowed to get) it's fine.

[Leon]

What are the PrCs in HoB other than the dread commando?

[Chronicled]

What are the PrCs in HoB other than the dread commando?

The PrCs in HoB are: Combat Medic, Dread Commando, Legendary Leader, and War Weaver.

[Danin]

Plus, the cover is a subtle piece of absolutely hilarity once you realize those are little pieces of Regdar everywhere.

Holy cripes! Those are pieces of Regdar!

On a related note, having both of them I will say they are very different books. Whereas HoB is very situational HoH can be applied to most campaigns with a darker undertone. HoH also offers not one but two new base clases, something that HoB can't match. However if you do find your PCs in a military type situation often or want to add a little bit of realism when you are discribing the military and what not, HoB is actually fairly* mechanically sound and nothing grossly overpowered has come from it.

I find Heros of Horror to be a very well written book and I just threw in the first element of the taint system into my campaign the other day (to the dismay of my PCs). Granted, its not going to be taint heavy but someone picking up a point because they are forced to spend a few nights locked alone in a room in which hundreds were sacrificed on a blood stained altar with no light source while they wait to be dug out... well, thats just good fun.

I do enjoy the concept of Heros of Battle but find that it only really lends well to a low magic campaign. When a wizard can start throwing around fireballs and shaping the battlefield they, as Hinjo once said, "alter the course of battles". I have plans on using much of the book in a homebrewed low magic / steampunk campaign setting. A tenuous grasp on tech allows for some more urban combat and the like and allowing lower level characters to be a little more effective against PCs (Rifles, although not accurate, do a lot of damage).

In the end if you plan on basing a couple campaigns off of it I'd go for HoB, but unless you really make that the focus and read the (some times) convoluted rules, its really not going to be worth it. I'd probably go for HoH as it does have a lot of fun flavorful stuff (And the 100 Creepy Traits work wonders to gross out PCs).

My two copper.

[fireinthedust]

I got Horror for last Christmas, and Battle I picked up on my own. Horror is great.


HOWEVER: don't dismiss battle. it's a fine book. It also has a collected batch of a bunch of different armies,a d I like the fortifications. If you use it, or stronghold builder's guidebook, to build a keep you can either attack it, defend it with uber PCs (against an army, which can be fun (like the alamo or the 300)), or else have PCs storm a castle and fight.

there are fun banner items as well as ballistic magical weapons (cheese, but fun if you're in the neighbourhood), and I vaguely recall the war mage is in there (but I'm not sure).

Anyway, it depends on what you're likely to do in a game. What do you feel like settin up for PCs right now? Then save up and get the other one.

[CactusAir]

Get battles. Warweaver is the kick.

Archivist is in a web supplement.

[Leon]

I took Horror, i think i'll layby battle over the next few months.

From what people have said i think HoH will be more of a useful thing sooner than HoB

Thanks for the help

[Kristoss]

Here's the real problem. The source that UA and HoH both used for the Taint mechanic is Oriental Adventures. Oriental Adventures and the mechanic presented therein was setting specific.... Rokugan. Which was in fact adapted wholesale from the Legend of the Five Rings RPG. The original mechanic works very well in its home system(exploding d10)/setting. It converts horribly to D20 no matter how many times you try it. The corrupted warrior or whatever it's called, is adapted from the Maho Bujin prestige class presented in OA, as is the Blood sorceror...or whatever. It was the Maho Tsukai.

That, in a nutshell, is the problem with the Taint mechanic. It's for a completely different rpg system.

You tell us the cause for taint not working in d20, but what is it about the taint system that doesn't work in it's d20 form?
Would it be better to use the powers check system from ravenloft?