Crossbows Or Throwing Daggers.

[BRC]

My next character (Epic Level evil campaign) is a hobgoblin rouge/warmaster with 4 arms ( a wizard/Template did it). Ignore the Warmaster levels for now, the character fights like a rouge. Now for my Ranged weapon I was originally thinking of using 2 light crossbows (1 in each set of arms) and spending a feat on Rapid Reload, which with my dexterity modifier of +6 means I get quite afew decently accurate ranged attacks.
However, I had another idea, what if instead I got 4 magical daggers with returning and threw them, allowing me many attacks per round on a full-attack action, which if I give all 4 daggers 1d6 of energy damage will really stack up.

[SurlySeraph]

With the throwing daggers, you'll still need to take Quick Draw to have iterative attacks with them, just as you'd need Rapid Reload with the crossbows. You'd also need to take Multiweapon Fighting to get attacks with all of your arms. However, though I haven't done the math, I believe you could get more attacks with the Multiweapon Fighting tree and throwing daggers than with the crossbows. Since you're a rogue, you want as many attacks as possible so you can pile up the d6s.

You'll have to spend a LOT of feats to fight either way, but I think your feats would be better spent on the throwing daggers.

[BRC]

With the throwing daggers, you'll still need to take Quick Draw to have iterative attacks with them, just as you'd need Rapid Reload with the crossbows. You'd also need to take Multiweapon Fighting to get attacks with all of your arms. However, though I haven't done the math, I believe you could get more attacks with the Multiweapon Fighting tree and throwing daggers than with the crossbows. Since you're a rogue, you want as many attacks as possible so you can pile up the d6s.

You'll have to spend a LOT of feats to fight either way, but I think your feats would be better spent on the throwing daggers.

I'll already be taking multiweapon fighting and quick draw for use with my 4 rapiers, heres my feat layout right now (We start at ECL 21 so I get 7 feats)
Weapon Finesse (Rapier)
Multiweapon Fighting
Improved Critical (Rapier)
Leadership
Epic Leadership
(maybe) Rapid Reload (light Crossbow) or Quick Draw
(Maybe) Imp multiweapon fighting.

[Telonius]

Hm. You have Epic Leadership, so why do you need Rapid Reload? 1 lackey per crossbow sounds like win to me.

[marjan]

I'll already be taking multiweapon fighting and quick draw for use with my 4 rapiers, heres my feat layout right now (We start at ECL 21 so I get 7 feats)
Weapon Finesse (Rapier)
Multiweapon Fighting
Improved Critical (Rapier)
Leadership
Epic Leadership
(maybe) Rapid Reload (light Crossbow) or Quick Draw
(Maybe) Imp multiweapon fighting.

Weapon Finesse works with every finesseable weapon, you don't need to select one. I would drop Improved Critical unless you also want Telling Blow since another d6 + Enhancement bonus + your probably relatively low strength from time to time won't be all that helpfull. The daggers will get you more dmg than crossbows but will cost more to enchant them all.

[BRC]

Hm. You have Epic Leadership, so why do you need Rapid Reload? 1 lackey per crossbow sounds like win to me.

Because the way me and my DM have agreed it's going to work is that there will be some goals to be acheived standard party-style, and some to be acheived by breaking out my army, and that it will be very clear which is which. Also, I'd like my character not to rely on having some lackies who can be killed by the things were fighting glancing in their direction to be effective with his ranged attacks.

[BRC]

Weapon Finesse works with every fenesseable weapon, you don't need to select one. I would drop Improved Critical unless you also want Telling Blow since another d6 + Enhancement bonus + your probably relatively low strength from time to time won't be all that helpfull. The daggers will get you more dmg than crossbows but will cost more to enchant them all.

Preety much all of my weapons have X Burst on them to deal additional damage while criting. Also remember I'll get 8+ attacks per round, with a crit range of 15+ with those rapiers that stacks up, and it's an evil campaign so we won't have to worry about undead nearly as much, if we do the party has a dread necromancer who can take control of them. In short those crits will stack up fast.

[marjan]

Preety much all of my weapons have X Burst on them to deal additional damage while criting. Also remember I'll get 8+ attacks per round, with a crit range of 15+ with those rapiers that stacks up, and it's an evil campaign so we won't have to worry about undead nearly as much, if we do the party has a dread necromancer who can take control of them. In short those crits will stack up fast.

X burst is nice and all but I got the impression that you want to be ranged character primarily, so spending your feat on something you won't use much isn't that good. You can instead add deadly precision (MIC I think) to get +2d6 every time you make sneak attack instead d6 + d10 (25% of time).

[Spiryt]

Well, I would say crossbow, (guy with four arms and two cross. looks kinda intimidating, and guy with 4 daggers in each hand looks just stupid) but unfortunately is one big Loose in D&D.

It's pretty obvious that with strenght 14 or so (not very hard to obatain on epic, even with low starting score) your damage with daggers will be much bigger. Not to mention enchacements. I could do some math, but I'm too lazy. Sorry.

However crossbows would have much better range.

[BRC]

X burst is nice and all but I got the impression that you want to be ranged character primarily, so spending your feat on something you won't use much isn't that good. You can instead add deadly precision (MIC I think) to get +2d6 every time you make sneak attack instead d6 + d10 (25% of time).

Actually I'm going to be primarily a meele character, thats why I'm thinking daggers instead of crossbows, because the daggers will use quick-draw, somthing I can use in meelee as well.

Hmm, I just checked and weapon finesse DOES count for all finessible weapons, which means I might want to use the Blade of Deft Strikes (I Think thats what it's called) in my main hand, it's a shortsword that does damage based on dexterity instead of strength, which will be good for making sneak-attacks.

[marjan]

Still, I don't think Improved Critical + X Burst is worth it. You are better of using Improved/Greater Multiweapon Fighting.

If you want to go melee maybe it would be better to use daggers with throwing instead of rapiers. That way you won't need Quick Draw and you'll save a lot of money.

[BRC]

You know, thinking about it, I migh go with crossbows because I'll want to put distance and returning on them so they are halfway decent as ranged weapons, and if I want energy damage on them so they actually deal damage thats 32305 GP Per dagger, and since I get at least 10 attacks a round thats 323050 GP if I want to make use of all my attacks, which Is more than I'M willing to spend on this.

[Uthug]

For energy damage, you could just use the crystals of energy assault from MIC, the lesser ones cost 3k+, you just need the weapon to have a +1 enhancement.

[Yeril]

You know, thinking about it, I migh go with crossbows because I'll want to put distance and returning on them so they are halfway decent as ranged weapons, and if I want energy damage on them so they actually deal damage thats 32305 GP Per dagger, and since I get at least 10 attacks a round thats 323050 GP if I want to make use of all my attacks, which Is more than I'M willing to spend on this.

True but right down to it, your a rogue. An epic one at that, grab 10 +1 returning daggers for 80k, and save 240,000gp. with that 240k you can almost cerianly get some combination of items, or items and feat, or crazed amount of cheese to get sneak attack on every attack. meaning so you exchange that +1d6 fire damage on each dagger, to +epicD6 sneak attack damage on EVERY hit.

and on the topic of sneak attack, more attacks mean more sneak attacks so improved+greater multiweapon fighting are worth it at +3 attacks each.

[BRC]

For energy damage, you could just use the crystals of energy assault from MIC, the lesser ones cost 3k+, you just need the weapon to have a +1 enhancement.

I don't have MIC and I don't think my DM would allow it, besides, with a range incremant of 10ft I might as well be in meelee when using them, and the character is preety much based around being stylish and cinematic, he's trying to re-establish a hobgoblin empire and is weakening resistance by filling the role that's been filled in a thousand stories, the heir to the lost kingdom trying to reclaim his birthright, and everybody knows that the heir in that case MUST be the good guy, especially if he's charming (Charisma of 25), fast and skilled instead of big and powerful (Dex of 22, weapon finesse). In short, I'm the Villain with Good Publicity, tearing down all that is good and just, ruling as a tyrant, and doing it all to thundering applause. Think a combination Zorro/Che Guevarra/ Sauron.
Personally I like character concepts more than optimization and the whole two crossbows thing is alot cooler then the daggers, it also gives me a major benefit of ranged attacks, RANGE.

[Yeril]

Personally I like character concepts more than optimization and the whole two crossbows thing is alot cooler then the daggers, it also gives me a major benefit of ranged attacks, RANGE.

You can use three crossbows

since its a free action to "rapid reload" you only need 1 hand free.

[BRC]

You can use three crossbows

since its a free action to "rapid reload" you only need 1 hand free.

Ah but if I do that I take a -2 penalty using each crossbow 1-handed....Unless I use hand crossbows.... I am intrigued....
OR I could use a pair of shortbows and not need rapid reload, instead getting that sweet, sweet greater multiweapon fighting, putting me only 1 epic feat away from Perfect multiweapon fighting. I think I might do that, because the image of a guy dual-weilding bows is AWSOME!

[SurlySeraph]

@^: Good choice. Less feat-sucking than the crossbows; and while you won't get as many attacks as with the daggers, it's still a pretty good choice. If Warmaster gives you proficiency with longbows, those would be a mechanically stronger choice than shortbows, but you know that already. I don't want to interfere with your vision of such an awesome character concept. A "combination Zorro/Che Guevarra/ Sauron"... if I had any artistic talent at ALL, I'd be trying to draw a four-armed combination Zorro/ Che/ Sauron right now. Let's see, Che with a black mask, with his single flaming eye peering through...

[BRC]

@^: Good choice. Less feat-sucking than the crossbows; and while you won't get as many attacks as with the daggers, it's still a pretty good choice. If Warmaster gives you proficiency with longbows, those would be a mechanically stronger choice than shortbows, but you know that already. I don't want to interfere with your vision of such an awesome character concept. A "combination Zorro/Che Guevarra/ Sauron"... if I had any artistic talent at ALL, I'd be trying to draw a four-armed combination Zorro/ Che/ Sauron right now. Let's see, Che with a black mask, with his single flaming eye peering through...

You just gave me an irrististable urge to try to draw that, though I will fail miserably. I'll use longbows if warmaster gives me the proficiency.

[BRC]

Pitiful Art skills GO GO GO

[Cuddly]

MWF should stack with rapid shot. Look into getting a girallon's blessing cast on you for even more attacks (from spell compendium).

[BRC]

Of course, the question is WHAT Shortbows should I buy...hrm...