Aasimar...lite?

[UserClone]

Where would I find those "Lesser Aasimar/Tiefling" races I read so much about?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Players guide to Faerun, I believe. They're utterly unbalanced.

[Soepvork]

Player's Guide to Faerun.

Basically, they are the same as the "standard" aasimar and tiefling, except their type is changed from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched)

[Tengu]

Basically, they are the same as the "standard" aasimar and tiefling, except their type is changed from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched)

And they lose their LA. Which makes them stupidly imbalanced.

[Talya]

Sean K. Reynolds Savage Progressions has a better way of taking the level adjustment out of Aasimar.

[Witch]

And they lose their LA. Which makes them stupidly imbalanced.

I'd like some proof for that claim.

[Newtkeeper]

I'd like some proof for that claim.

Well, same abilities as a race with LA, but no LA themselves.

That would suggest to me that either the original has an LA to high, or the lite-version has an LA to low.

[Tengu]

I'd like some proof for that claim.

Minor bonuses aside, do you really think that +2 to wisdom and charisma, or +2 to dexterity and intelligence and -2 to charisma are balanced ability bonuses for a 0 LA race?

[Witch]

Well, same abilities as a race with LA, but no LA themselves.

That would suggest to me that either the original has an LA to high, or the lite-version has an LA to low.

The original has an LA too high, yes.

Minor bonuses aside, do you really think that +2 to wisdom and charisma, or +2 to dexterity and intelligence and -2 to charisma are balanced ability bonuses for a 0 LA race?

Yes, I do think that those are balanced ability score bonuses, given the absolutely crappy other abilities Aasimar get.

Let's compare a bit.

# +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma.
# An aasimar’s base land speed is 30 feet.
# Darkvision: Aasimars can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
# Racial Skills: Aasimars have a +2 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks.
# Special Attacks (see above): Daylight.
# Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to acid 5, cold 5, and electricity 5.

# +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
# Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
# Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
# Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
# Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
# Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
# +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
# +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
# +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
# +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
# +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
# +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.

I don't see that big a difference.

[Newtkeeper]

I don't see that big a difference.

Hmmm. The dwarf gets a +2 to CON (and -2 to CHA, but that doesn't hurt him much, except by keeping him from sorcery) , a bunch of situationally useful abilities, and +2 on saves against spells.

The Aasmir gets +2 to WIS, and +2 to CHA, and a few minor abilities. Really, for +0 LA, why *wouldn't* a cleric be an aasmir? And let's face it, LA should be based on the *best* classes for the race, not the worst.

Admittedly, unless he's a cleric, the aasmir doesn't come out *too* far ahead. But isn't a dwarf also a fairly (I do not, however, say overly), strong LA+0? At the other extreme, compare him to the .5Orc! Even compared to the fairly average gnome, the aasmir, I think, comes out way ahead.

In general, bonuses to spellcasting stats are very valuable. The aasmir gets two!

[Witch]

Hmmm. The dwarf gets a +2 to CON (and -2 to CHA, but that doesn't hurt him much, except by keeping him from sorcery) , a bunch of situationally useful abilities, and +2 on saves against spells.

Situationally very useful abilities, yes. Good saves against spells as well.

The Aasmir gets +2 to WIS, and +2 to CHA, and a few minor abilities. Really, for +0 LA, why *wouldn't* a cleric be an aasmir? And let's face it, LA should be based on the *best* classes for the race, not the worst.

1) Level Adjustment is an out-of-game balancing mechanism. This is important to remember. In the game world, Aasimar level just as quickly as anyone else. If seen like this, there is no reason why the cleric aasimar needs the same level adjustment as the fighter aasimar.
2) A cleric may want better protections versus spells. He may want a better Constitution score. He may want to have access to a number of weapons without an exotic weapon proficiency feat. He may want a bonus feat. He may want immunity to sleep effects. He may want to be Small, and get all the bonuses from that. He may want more strength.

Admittedly, unless he's a cleric, the aasmir doesn't come out *too* far ahead. But isn't a dwarf also a fairly (I do not, however, say overly), strong LA+0? At the other extreme, compare him to the .5Orc! Even compared to the fairly average gnome, the aasmir, I think, comes out way ahead.

In general, bonuses to spellcasting stats are very valuable. The aasmir gets two!

Spellcasting stat boosts are overrated. They're good, yes. But let's see what a 1st level caster gets from an increase in Wisdom. First, a +1 to save DCs, but the cleric is likely focusing more on buffing than on that, so this won't matter much. Then, bonus spells. At 1st level, we could say he went from 16 to 18. This makes no difference at all. Let's go with 10th level, and assume the change is from a 24 to a 26. The only difference is a single 4th level spell. Once again, I'm not impressed.


All in all, an Aasimar cleric is not a lot more powerful than a human cleric, and certainly not particularly more powerful than, say, a Half-Orc barbarian (other than by the abusability of the cleric class at higher levels - race will have nothing to do with this.)

[Tengu]

Remember that stat bonuses will let you improve other stats much more in point buy - an aasimar cleric with 18 wisdom and 16 charisma has other stats much higher overall than a human cleric with 18 wisdom and 16 charisma. That's worth much more than a bonus feat.

Tieflings have a net stat bonus of +2 instead of +4, but that doesn't mean they are less overpowered for 0 LA - since the classes they are best suited for have little use for charisma anyway.

A race really has to have severe weaknesses to have a net total stat bonus more than 0 and have 0 LA. Neither lesser aasimar nor lesser tiefling has them.

[Starsinger]

All in all, an Aasimar cleric is not a lot more powerful than a human cleric, and certainly not particularly more powerful than, say, a Half-Orc barbarian (other than by the abusability of the cleric class at higher levels - race will have nothing to do with this.)

And then at higher levels, a standard Aasimar cleric is worse than a LA 0 race cleric. Especially when the LA 0 Cleric is level 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17. Doubly so for an Aasimar sorcerer (only then it's even levels). Being a spell level behind isn't fun.

[Witch]

Remember that stat bonuses will let you improve other stats much more in point buy - an aasimar cleric with 18 wisdom and 16 charisma has other stats much higher overall than a human cleric with 18 wisdom and 16 charisma. That's worth much more than a bonus feat.

Tieflings have a net stat bonus of +2 instead of +4, but that doesn't mean they are less overpowered for 0 LA - since the classes they are best suited for have little use for charisma anyway.

A race really has to have severe weaknesses to have a net total stat bonus more than 0 and have 0 LA. Neither lesser aasimar nor lesser tiefling has them.

Once again, I think you people are assessing stat boosts as too important, while, when compared to other abilities, they aren't all that special.

[Lady Tialait]

Dwarves i personally think should have been LA 1, as such in game they are. They are VERY powerful for a non-LA race.

Compare Aasimar to the Elf, shall we?

[Tengu]

Once again, I think you people are assessing stat boosts as too important, while, when compared to other abilities, they aren't all that special.

What's so strong about (for example) dwarves then, if stats aren't so special? Stonecunning? +2 to saves versus poison? Stats ARE important, and there are very few races that have racial abilities that are more important than stats - from core ones, the only ones are human (bonus feat) and small races.

And then at higher levels, a standard Aasimar cleric is worse than a LA 0 race cleric. Especially when the LA 0 Cleric is level 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17. Doubly so for an Aasimar sorcerer (only then it's even levels). Being a spell level behind isn't fun.

We're talking about the lesser, 0 LA aasimar here. Normal aasimar and tiefling are rather weak for LA +1 races.

[lord_khaine]

i do think they are a lot closer to a LA of 0 than to 1.
think of it the other way, who would give up a level of cleric for +2 wis and
+2 char?

[Newtkeeper]

i do think they are a lot closer to a LA of 0 than to 1.
think of it the other way, who would give up a level of cleric for +2 wis and
+2 char?

Very few.

However, as I said, who wouldn't give up, say, an Elf's bonus, for +2 WIS/+2 CHA.

Better underpowered than overpowered, I think.

[Starsinger]

We're talking about the lesser, 0 LA aasimar here. Normal aasimar and tiefling are rather weak for LA +1 races.

I know. Someone mentioned that Aasimars get caster stat boosts, which are "extremely powerful." So I countered with an example of how it hurts a regular aasimar, trying to show that they're better off as strong LA 0s than Weak LA 1s.

[Tengu]

Normal aasimar and tiefling belong to the same category as whisper gnome (except that they are on the other side of the fence) - too weak for LA +1, too strong for LA 0. I agree with Talya that Savage Species handle them the best way.

[Chronicled]

If you really think that they're overpowered, drop the Daylight special attack and energy resistances. Then they're easily within the middle range of LA+0.

The only classes that can make use of both their ability bonuses anyways are a paladin (which need all the help they can get) or a turn-undead abusing cleric (which is a problem regardless).

[Witch]

Very few.

However, as I said, who wouldn't give up, say, an Elf's bonus, for +2 WIS/+2 CHA.

Better underpowered than overpowered, I think.

Rogues?

It's like asking "Who wouldn't give up, say, a Half-Orc's bonuses for a +2 Con?" Casters. Or "Who wouldn't give up, say, an elf's bonuses for a +2 Str?" Barbarians.

Different races are suited to different classes more. Lesser Aasimar happen to be good clerics.

[Tengu]

If you really think that they're overpowered, drop the Daylight special attack and energy resistances. Then they're easily within the middle range of LA+0.

The only classes that can make use of both their ability bonuses anyways are a paladin (which need all the help they can get) or a turn-undead abusing cleric (which is a problem regardless).

Actually, if I were to balance the lesser variants, I'd drop aasimar's wisdom bonus and tiefling's intelligence or dexterity bonus.

[Talya]

Normal aasimar and tiefling belong to the same category as whisper gnome (except that they are on the other side of the fence) - too weak for LA +1, too strong for LA 0. I agree with Talya that Savage Species handle them the best way.

Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with Savage Species. It may also have a good way of dealing with them.

I'm referring to Sean K. Reynolds' Savage Progressions collumn on the WotC website. In particular, he did one section on level adjusted races. It can be found here.

Note that while these rules are "official," in the same sense as Unearthed Arcana alternate rules are official WotC published ideas, (/barbosa on) they are more like "guidelines" than actual rules.(/barbosa off). He doesn't show every possible level adjusted race or template, nor are the examples he gives ironclad and unalterable (for instance, you could swap the aasimar's wisdom or charisma bonus at level 0 depending on your character concept.) They just provide an example for how to divide up a level adjustment over time.

[Tengu]

These are what I meant - I thought they are from Savage Species. Guess I was mistaken.

[LibraryOgre]

I'll point out one of the primary advantages of being an outsider: immunity to the wide range of lower-level spells that are designed to affect humanoids. Sure, a dwarf or elf gets a +2 to save against that Charm Person spell, but an Aasimar is immune, because it's not technically a person.

[Gorbash]

Umm, where exactly in Player's Guide to Faerun are those Lesser Aasimar/Tieflings? I can't seem to find them...

[Illiterate Scribe]

I'll point out one of the primary advantages of being an outsider: immunity to the wide range of lower-level spells that are designed to affect humanoids. Sure, a dwarf or elf gets a +2 to save against that Charm Person spell, but an Aasimar is immune, because it's not technically a person.

Lesser Aasimar are humanoid (planetouched), rather than outsider.

Also, we are underestimating the utility of the energy resistance, especially at low levels. The tiefling's fire resist, in particular.

[Curmudgeon]

At LA +1, Aasimar is a good race choice for a Bard, Cleric, Sorcerer, or Favored Soul (which relies on both WIS and CHA). With LA buyoff this ends up being only 3,000 XP behind LA +0 races -- meaning at higher levels, the Aasimar character is mostly at the same class level as other party members.

Given that the LA +1 choice is a fine option, the LA +0 version does seem excessively good.

[Witch]

At LA +1, Aasimar is a good race choice for a Bard, Cleric, Sorcerer, or Favored Soul (which relies on both WIS and CHA). With LA buyoff this ends up being only 3,000 XP behind LA +0 races -- meaning at higher levels, the Aasimar character is mostly at the same class level as other party members.

Given that the LA +1 choice is a fine option, the LA +0 version does seem excessively good.

The usefulness of LA you propagate is contingent on accepting LA buyoff, which is an optional rule as well. A sorcerer with level adjustment gets 2nd level spells at ECL 5. At that ECL, the wizard has access to 3rd level spells. I don't consider that very good.