Monks

[Icewalker]

I never fully realized how bad monks are...I heard everybody talking, and never really looked into it...

I just statted up a level one human monk using the non-elite array for an NPC in an adventure...and it amounts to pretty much the same thing as a commoner with a small mace. Except with better saves, and a DC 11 stunning fist 1/day.

So, regardless of higher levels, first level monks really suck. I understand now!

It could probably lose to a commoner with a heavy mace.

[Cuddly]

That, my friend, is MAD. Use the elite array; it will look a little better.

[Armads]

Everything is weak and fragile at level 1. Even the barbarian, which is a powerhouse at level 1, might still get downed by a level 1 orc warrior with a greataxe.

Also, first level bards are worse, although higher level bards are quite good.

But you're right that monks suck - which I'm sure many people will come and try to correct me soon.

[Talic]

Yup. A 1st level barbarian can be dropped by a particularly lucky orc with a greataxe.

Even standard array damage is 1d12+1/x3 crit.

Longsword is also deadly at this range, with 1D8+1 19-20/x2.

You're looking at high end or 13 and 9, respectively, with crits averaging 23 damage and 11 damage, respectively.

Greatsword is sick as well, at 2d6+1 19-20/x2

High of 13 damage still, but better crit chance than the Greataxe, and an average crit damage of 16... Enough to drop a max HP barbarian with an 18 con.

Low level games are more lethal.

[holywhippet]

Monks get better as they gain levels. Faster base speed, special feats and the best saving throws of all classes. Just don't make the mistake of thinking they are a straight up fighter class. They can do fairly well in hand to hand, but their speed also lets them act as a skirmisher - ie. hit and run tactics.

[mabriss lethe]

I've been noodling an idea for a monk "fix" not much of one mind you, but use the essense invocations of a warlock as a guide, to create a series of at will abilities that a monk can apply to one attack per round. most of them would still only be useful against foes with appropriate anatomies.

Very rough outline below, this is just where my thinking is carrying me at the moment. Maybe give it a requirement similar to sneak attack, but....shrugs. it's 6 in the morning. time for a quick nap before work.

Level 1 Cheap shot: In addition to normal unarmed damage, target succeeds on a fort save or is sickened for one minute. sickened creatures are immune to further cheap shots.

Level 6 Eye rake: succeed on a fort save or be blinded for one round.

Level 11 Head shot: Suceed on a fort save or be confused for 1 rd

Level 16 Greater Cheap shot, as cheap shot, but nauseated instead of sickened.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Monks get better as they gain levels. Faster base speed, special feats and the best saving throws of all classes. Just don't make the mistake of thinking they are a straight up fighter class. They can do fairly well in hand to hand, but their speed also lets them act as a skirmisher - ie. hit and run tactics.

hit and run works fine if your playing solo, if there are more players who can't hit and run like you can, the tactic is negated.

I've been noodling an idea for a monk "fix" not much of one mind you, but use the essense invocations of a warlock as a guide, to create a series of at will abilities that a monk can apply to one attack per round. most of them would still only be useful against foes with appropriate anatomies.

Very rough outline below, this is just where my thinking is carrying me at the moment. Maybe give it a requirement similar to sneak attack, but....shrugs. it's 6 in the morning. time for a quick nap before work.

Level 1 Cheap shot: In addition to normal unarmed damage, target succeeds on a fort save or is sickened for one minute. sickened creatures are immune to further cheap shots.

Level 6 Eye rake: succeed on a fort save or be blinded for one round.

Level 11 Head shot: Suceed on a fort save or be confused for 1 rd

Level 16 Greater Cheap shot, as cheap shot, but nauseated instead of sickened.

Besides the effect it might have, I don't think the flavour fits the monk.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I've been noodling an idea for a monk "fix" not much of one mind you, but use the essense invocations of a warlock as a guide, to create a series of at will abilities that a monk can apply to one attack per round. most of them would still only be useful against foes with appropriate anatomies.

There is a very simple fix to the monk. It's called the Swordsage.

I am trying to 'fix' the caster classes using an incantation system, however, so you may want to try and check that out.

[new1965]

Most of the problems people seem to have with monks can be addressed by selecting a different Weapon School like the Krabi-Krabong which gives you the following as Monk Weapons and proficiency with Long Sword

Club
Quaterstaff,
short Sword
Spear and Short Spear

You can do Flurry of Blows with them

Put Ki Focus on the weapon and you can do stunning attack, ki strike, and quivering palm, as well as the Stunning Fist feat through them as well

If your DM will allow it, take Unarmored Defense ProficiencY feat from Swash Buckling Adventures to boost your AC on top of the bonuses your Mpnk levels and Wisdom give you

[kamikasei]

Most of the problems people seem to have with monks can be addressed by selecting a different Weapon School like the Krabi-Krabong which gives you the following as Monk Weapons and proficiency with Long Sword

Club
Quaterstaff,
short Sword
Spear and Short Spear

You can do Flurry of Blows with them

Put Ki Focus on the weapon and you can do stunning attack, ki strike, and quivering palm, as well as the Stunning Fist feat through them as well

You still have MAD. You still have the fundamental contradiction of abilities based on movement coupled with a primary attack option that requires you to stand still. On top of that, you now have an entire class feature (your improved Unarmed Strike damage) going to waste.

[new1965]

You still have MAD. You still have the fundamental contradiction of abilities based on movement coupled with a primary attack option that requires you to stand still. On top of that, you now have an entire class feature (your improved Unarmed Strike damage) going to waste.

No one ever said you had to use the Monk Weapon exclusively.. Monks can alternate between unarmed strikes and monk weapons (even in the midst of a Flurry of Blows) freely . Changing the monk weapons just gives players a whole different range of options when it comes customizing the character with weapons to overcome damage reduction and the like

A monk with Spring attack to take advantage of his movement and some ranks in tumble can become effective . And if he gets caught face to face with someone one, he can bash/slice them to bit with flurry of blows

[Alyosha]

I like the Monk. I've been a martial artist most of my life, so I like the idea of a nimble athletic warrior who uses his body as a weapon.

But the more I think about it, the more I agree that Wizards didn't do the Monk justice.

Ultimately the only thing I think I absolutely would not change is the Unarmed Damage scaling, the class speed increase, and the good saves across the board. I also appreciate adding the WIS mod to AC because it plays to a monk's wisdom in fighting and awareness of his own body and his opponent's.

I don't understand why Monks get 3/4 BAB. As a person who trains in unarmed combat, (and do it rigorously), I don't see why monks would be less likely to hit an opponent than a fighter or a barbarian would. I would think that Monks would be more likely to hit since so much of martial arts requires precise strikes to the body in order to trap, disarm, etc.

I also don't like it that monks rely on 3-4 stats to be effective. You need STR for hitting and damage, DEX for your AC, CON so you can take a hit (maybe), and WIS for AC and Stunning Fist (if you take the Stunning Fist ability at all).

I am working on my own version of the Monk based on my own experience in martial arts and based in some of the martial arts movies/television shows I have seen (for a more fantasy spin on the class).

I'm still working out class abilities and how they should be granted level to level, but I think I can get the gist of it out there.

In martial arts, breathing is key. When you attack, you breathe in and then out when you strike. In a more mythical setting, your breathing influences your ki. It's this kind of thing that makes you good at martial arts. To reference Avatar: The Last Airbender, General Iroh says, "True strength comes from the breath, not from the muscles." This can be true in many styles of martial arts--especially in the "softer" forms like Tai Chi or Judo.

Wizards kind of plays to this with Ki Strike, the +WIS to AC, and the Stunning Fist DC, but after that it stops.

In my Monk abilities, I include the option for a Monk to substitute his WIS mod in place of STR or DEX for attack rolls and damage rolls (for ranged weapons the +WIS to damage still only applies to thrown weapons and slings).

I also try to play to the styles of martial arts--there are class trees kind of like Dual Wielding Rangers and Archery Rangers, only with hard styles (punching and kicking) and soft styles (grapples and throws).

I also give my Monk the ability to meditate for X rounds equal to their class level to to gain a +1 or +2 bonus per round. At first they get AC, Attack, and Skill bonuses, but later on I scale it up to include bonuses on saves, and at a higher level, You can add Damage Reduction or Spell Resistance.

I also think that Monks got screwed on feats. Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack are all nice for skirmishing, and there are some decent feats tied into the Stunning Fist feat, but there is little out there that would make a Monk really work.

Is there any open source material on the Swordsage? Or if there isn't an online source, could I get the title of the book so I can find it?

[Theli]

*shrugs* What's so bad about entire class features going to waste? Some of the best classes in the game have something like that. They're called familiars. :/

[new1965]

I
I don't understand why Monks get 3/4 BAB. As a person who trains in unarmed combat, (and do it rigorously), I don't see why monks would be less likely to hit an opponent than a fighter or a barbarian would. I would think that Monks would be more likely to hit since so much of martial arts requires precise strikes to the body in order to trap, disarm, etc.

Some of the Monk fighting styles alternatives give you additional bonuses on the defensive end

for instance Cobra Strike gives you a +2 bonus to AC using the Dodge feat.
Hand and Foot gives you bonuses against Bull Rush and Trip

With the monk you don't really need to worry about the strength bonus as much as your unarmed damage goes up by level anyway and their unarmed strikes can be enchanted like a manufactured weapon.

[kamikasei]

*shrugs* What's so bad about entire class features going to waste? Some of the best classes in the game have something like that. They're called familiars. :/

You know, I had actually been going to add a line to the effect that "you are not a druid, and cannot afford to ignore one class feature because your others are just that good".

[Arbitrarity]

Alyosha: You're looking for the Tome of Battle. Make sure to use the Unarmed variant (loses armor proficiency, gains monk unarmed strike progression). And if you want to keep the monk Ex, (primarily, seeing as current monk can dimension door, go ethereal, etc.) stay away from Shadow Hand and Desert Wind schools.

[Thinker]

Some of the Monk fighting styles alternatives give you additional bonuses on the defensive end

for instance Cobra Strike gives you a +2 bonus to AC using the Dodge feat.
Hand and Foot gives you bonuses against Bull Rush and Trip

With the monk you don't really need to worry about the strength bonus as much as your unarmed damage goes up by level anyway and their unarmed strikes can be enchanted like a manufactured weapon.

So what role does the monk perform that is not inferior in most ways to someone else performing that job? What combination of its abilities make it worthwhile instead of just having some other class do it?

[Telonius]

So what role does the monk perform that is not inferior in most ways to someone else performing that job? What combination of its abilities make it worthwhile instead of just having some other class do it?

Well, as far as I can tell the Monk's role is to create fan interest by provoking thousands of threads on internet forums. It's technically inferior to the Wizard in this regard (Wizard can beat x!). But the Wizard threads are due to the power of the class; Monk threads are due to lack of power. If it weren't for Monk, what low-powered class would they post about? Samurai is a possibility, but its weaknesses are so obvious that there would be essentially no argument. So yes, I would say that the Monk fits its niche uniquely well.

[Emperor Demonking]

If you want a NPC who can survive fighting the BBEG easily and don't want your players thinking, why doesn't he deal with it. Them monk is your guy.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I've never had a problem playing a monk and having fun as well as being useful to the party. Once I killed a wyvern with a crossbow. That wasn't a non-sequitor, I was playing a 6th level monk.

They read poorly but play well, as evidenced by the fact that nobody ever posts their experience with the monk class in these countless monk-bashing threads.

[Thinker]

I've never had a problem playing a monk and having fun as well as being useful to the party. Once I killed a wyvern with a crossbow. That wasn't a non-sequitor, I was playing a 6th level monk.

They read poorly but play well, as evidenced by the fact that nobody ever posts their experience with the monk class in these countless monk-bashing threads.

Specific examples don't really prove anything. Get enough specific examples together and you might have something. Monks do little else other than survive and outlast. Great if your party is all warlocks and monks. I'm glad you killed an idiotic wyvern with a crossbow. I assume the rest of the party stood by and did nothing the whole time while the wyvern stood still waiting to die?

[new1965]

So what role does the monk perform that is not inferior in most ways to someone else performing that job? What combination of its abilities make it worthwhile instead of just having some other class do it?

Thats the thing. the way i see the monk, it isn't a "speciality" class. Its a jack of all trades.

Need to fight in melee? the unarmed strike bonus, Ki strike, quivering palm and flurry of blows come in darn handy. Plus you can never be totally unarmed. Get Spring attack and some ranks of tumble and you can plague the enemy on the battle field

Need to scout ahead? a movement of +60, improved evasion, and the good saving throws are sweet. And if those stairs give way under you, slow fall is great. If you want to fight dirty... Be a Chaos monk with Monastic Training(I think thats it) and get a level of rogue . YOu get flurry of blows AND sneak attack damage (I forgot the sidewinder monk..You get flurry of blows AND sneak attack. By level 20 you can get a flurry a blows attack that does 2d10+5d6 per blow I think and poisoned fangs)

Fighting spellcasters? Spell resistance 23 at level 13 as a class feature ain't bad and you get Still mind to boot

Injured? Well the monk can heal himself or if you use one of the class variants, heal others

Its not the strongest class in any one role but it makes an very effective "5th character"

[Telonius]

I've personally played a Half-drow VoP monk/tattooed monk from levels 1-18. I almost always play for the role first, optimization second; and I had great fun with the character. It was one of my two favorite to play.

Despite my enjoyment of the role, the build was mechanically awful. It was only by DM fiat that he was able to contribute much in the higher levels. (DM changed the VoP rule to allow "any feat" instead of "any exalted feat" after I exhausted the useful Exalted feats).

The particular problems:
- Fighting anything that was larger than Medium-sized. It was easy to get up to them, but hard to hit them. Low-ish hitpoints made getting up next to the big thing not a very good idea.
- Useless Stunning Fist. In 18 levels of play, I was never able to successfully Stunning Fist anything; and not for lack of trying. (Granted it was an undead-heavy campaign).
- Low damage output. Even when not fighting bigger things, the lower BAB made it harder for me to hit higher-AC'd foes.

However, some good points about the mechanics:
- Rogue's Best Friend. My high movement and Tumble check allowed me to easily flank with our party Rogue.
- No worries about archery. I think our DM stopped throwing archers at us about halfway through the campaign. My standard operating procedure was to rush up and disarm them quickly, which nearly always succeeded. Melee weapons were a different story...
- Survivability/saves. I literally pulled companions out of burning buildings on a couple of different occasions. In 18 levels, I didn't die once.

To sum up, the Monk I used was not a character that was very useful for damaging your enemies directly, nor was it particularly useful against casters. It was useful for giving a few nifty little tactical bonuses to your friends, negating a few tactical advantages for your enemies, and not dying. Which is approximately the consensus of the Boards on the usefulness of Monks.

EDIT: Forgot to mention another good point regarding archery ... deflect arrows meant that a readied action against me didn't help the archers at all. This hadn't occurred to me before, but if the Monk were billed as an Anti-Archer instead of an Anti-Caster, it would be a lot closer to truth in advertising.

[marjan]

*shrugs* What's so bad about entire class features going to waste? Some of the best classes in the game have something like that. They're called familiars. :/

You realy don't know what familiars are capable of. If you think that familiars are waste read this.

[Thinker]

Thats the thing. the way i see the monk, it isn't a "speciality" class. Its a jack of all trades.

It fails at being a jack of all trades. A jack of all trades should be desired in a party and in this case, it isn't.

Need to fight in melee? the unarmed strike bonus, Ki strike, quivering palm and flurry of blows come in darn handy. Plus you can never be totally unarmed. Get Spring attack and some ranks of tumble and you can plague the enemy on the battle field

There are so many things wrong with this statement that I'm not sure where to start. Unarmed strike bonus does far less damage than any other class designed to be useful in melee. The abilities based on saves will fail often because the monk cannot afford to have much higher than a middle wisdom. Not being unarmed may be a perk, but everyone gets the same perk with the investment of a locked gauntlet. Spring Attack and Tumble are completely counter-intuitive to flurry. Flurry requires a full attack and thus cannot be used with those.

The monk has too few HP to survive an attack in melee, even with the generally higher AC. So many creatures are going to hit very frequently at higher levels that the AC doesn't matter, ways to completely negate attacks are better, i.e. miss chance.

Need to scout ahead? a movement of +60, improved evasion, and the good saving throws are sweet. And if those stairs give way under you, slow fall is great.

Yay! I can scout, but can't disarm traps. I can't afford to pump skills because I have to worry about so many other stats besides intelligence. Skill monkeys are better suited as scouts since they have skills.

If you want to fight dirty... Be a Chaos monk with Monastic Training(I think thats it) and get a level of rogue . YOu get flurry of blows AND sneak attack damage (I forgot the sidewinder monk..You get flurry of blows AND sneak attack. By level 20 you can get a flurry a blows attack that does 2d10+5d6 per blow I think and poisoned fangs)

So you're thinking 28.5 damage per attack at level 20 is a lot? I fail to see it. A straight fighter could do more without batting an eye. That's about on par with archer damage, which is generally bad.

Fighting spellcasters? Spell resistance 23 at level 13 as a class feature ain't bad and you get Still mind to boot

Caster level is the easiest thing in DnD to boost. There are spells that don't allow spell-resistance or saves. There are also spells that boost the CL check to overcome SR as a swift action (meaning they cast it and then cast their spell). Generally opponents are higher level than the party, meaning they have a higher CL to begin with.

Injured? Well the monk can heal himself or if you use one of the class variants, heal others

Most people can find some easy way to heal. Wand of Cure Light Wounds does the trick and so many classes can use it that its a moot point: Rangers, Paladins, Clerics, Rogues, Bards, Druids, etc.

Its not the strongest class in any one role but it makes an very effective "5th character"

I would rather have a very effective "5th character" that actually does something. If you are missing a role to be filled, pick a class that actually fills that role. If all roles are filled, team up with one of the others.

[new1965]

Monks are NOT slug it out melee fighters.. they are skirmishers (it even says so int the class description) Played right, it doesnt matter that much if he doesn't have a Fighters HP as you are supposed to be mobile .Spring Attack and tumble are to avoid getting hit. Besides a d8 is fair HD and I cant remember the name but theres a variation that gets a D10.

its not counter intuitive to flurry of blows
(just because I can hit a baseball doesn't mean I cant throw or catch either). You can fight in more than one style. Ever see a Bruce lee movie when hes going from enemy to enemy and then stops in front of 1 and hits him a dozen times?

and yes.. 28.5 is a lot of damage when you consider that number is without magic assistance or feats and its 5 attacks if using flurry of blows.. if they all hit that 142pts of damage.

If you are missing a role to be filled, pick a class that actually fills that role. If all roles are filled, team up with one of the others.

Isnt that the definition of what a "5th character" is supposed to do?
I said it wasn't a primary role filler , but a 5th character that assists the others

[Telonius]

and yes.. 28.5 is a lot of damage when you consider that number is without magic assistance or feats and its 5 attacks if using flurry of blows.. if they all hit that 142pts of damage.

If they all hit, that means your level 20 character is flanking something with an AC of about 12.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Specific examples don't really prove anything. Get enough specific examples together and you might have something. Monks do little else other than survive and outlast. Great if your party is all warlocks and monks. I'm glad you killed an idiotic wyvern with a crossbow. I assume the rest of the party stood by and did nothing the whole time while the wyvern stood still waiting to die?

No, but their combined efforts didn't equal mine.

Later on we stormed a hobgoblin fortress and cleared them out room by room. When we were confronted by spellcasters, I tumbled past their minions and negated their ability to harm us by grappling them. When we fought hordes of low-level hobgoblins, I tumbled to the exit, and thanks to my decent combat abilities and the Combat Reflexes feat, none of them could get past me to warn the rest of the complex about us.

Earlier on we were confronted by this huge-ass hound archon that wouldn't let us past because a long-dead spellcaster had struck a bargain with it to guard the valley. I tumbled past it and ran off, waving my arms and screaming at the top of my lungs. It teleported towards me and hit me with its greatsword for like 30+ damage, and even though the eldritch disciple popped me with a healing blast, I still had to surrender and allow it to drag me back to the valley entrance. This didn't accomplish anything, but nobody else could do anything either and it was funny as hell.

I challenge -you- (all of you) to come up with examples of times you played a monk and didn't have fun because you were too underpowered. Specific examples don't prove anything, but neither does number-crunching and strategy generalizations, since they have little or nothing to do with how the game is played.

[Talya]

I don't like the swordsage as a fix to the monk. In fact, I love the flavor of the existing monk, it just needs work.


Here's what I'd change.

BAB: Return to the 3.0 iterative attacks for monks - +15/+12/+9/+6/+3 (While I'm tempted to make it a standard +20/+15/+10/+5, i prefer the insane number of attacks for flavor.)

Flurry of Blows: now a free action that adds 1 or 2 attacks (depending on your monk level) at your full BAB to whatever attack you are making in a round (standard or full.)

Automatic enhancement bonus to unarmed attack: +1 at levels 3, 7, 11, 15 and 19. Ability to add other enhancement abilities, such as "Flaming," "Keen," etc. at similar costs to weapons that receive them.

Reduce MAD: Wisdom can replace strength to-hit and damage, if it is higher

Bonus Feats: At every level where a monk gets a choice of two bonus feats, they get both feats.

Skills: Boost to 6+int.

[Telonius]

No, but their combined efforts didn't equal mine.

Later on we stormed a hobgoblin fortress and cleared them out room by room. When we were confronted by spellcasters, I tumbled past their minions and negated their ability to harm us by grappling them. When we fought hordes of low-level hobgoblins, I tumbled to the exit, and thanks to my decent combat abilities and the Combat Reflexes feat, none of them could get past me to warn the rest of the complex about us.

Earlier on we were confronted by this huge-ass hound archon that wouldn't let us past because a long-dead spellcaster had struck a bargain with it to guard the valley. I tumbled past it and ran off, waving my arms and screaming at the top of my lungs. It teleported towards me and hit me with its greatsword for like 30+ damage, and even though the eldritch disciple popped me with a healing blast, I still had to surrender and allow it to drag me back to the valley entrance. This didn't accomplish anything, but nobody else could do anything either and it was funny as hell.

I challenge -you- (all of you) to come up with examples of times you played a monk and didn't have fun because you were too underpowered. Specific examples don't prove anything, but neither does number-crunching and strategy generalizations, since they have little or nothing to do with how the game is played.

Fighting a bunch of vampires. They're immune to stunning (not that it was very useful anyway). Fast healing negated most of the damage I did to it. Grappling it would have been ... unwise. Couldn't disarm it (it wasn't armed); couldn't trip it (my poor BAB); couldn't hurt it. Didn't have Holy on my unarmed strike yet. Flanking would have done no good, as they're immune to the rogue's sneak attack anwyay. I basically did full defense the entire combat. Not fun, at all.

Fighting a Dragon. High AC meant I couldn't hit it. Not trippable, not grapple-able, not disarm-able. Best I did was flank it and fight defensively. Again, not fun.