level 20 gestalt character

[Frosty]

Ok, there may be a campaign starting soon where each player begins as a level 20 gestalt character. Given the assumption that Epic rules will not be used, and that there will be no normal leveling ups (you just gain some variant divine-rank abilities as you gain more exp), what kind of build would you use? Assume you have access to:

Core, PHB two, all Complete books, Xpanded Psionics handbook (but I don't want to be a psionic character), Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Fiendish Codex 1 and 2, Unearthed Arcana, Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild, Dragonomicon, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Citiscape, Magic Item Compendium, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Book of Vile Darkness (but I won't be evil)

What kind of build would be powerful but not to the point of, "Ok, there's more cheese here than in France." It should be something that makes sense thematically, not a random amalgamation of dips to make the most mechanically powerful character. Also assume that the players will not necessarily be working with each other, although they do not necessarily work against each other either. This character should be somewhat self-sufficient, so most likely this character should have some form of magical prowess.

Oh and also, no Druids.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Sorcerer 20//Ranger 20

As sort of a shaman.

[Frosty]

Hmm, it's simple and has good saves. But I was hoping more for feat selections and general strategies in combat instead of just how many levels of each build. Like, what kind of style would this character focus on? Using spells to buff his archery? Or perhaps he's a blaster who also happens to shoot arrows?

[CASTLEMIKE]

With a human gestalt taking 2 flaws to balance out taking 2 Practiced Caster feats on the Beguiler side:

Factotum - 19 + 1 level to personal taste but Marshal - 1 with Motivate Aura Charisma (or Intelligence) is nice.

Conjurer Specialist -1 with the Arcane Discipline Spell Domain (Lots of utility with that single domain for a PC), Master Specialist -4, Ultimate Magus - 10, ACM, Abjurant Champion, Loremaster or Thaumaturgist - 5 to personal tastes, (Effectively a Conj- 19, Beguiler - 8 for spellcasting (Quite a few useful spells on hand for various situations) plus the Factotum Arcane Dilettante ability address most of the 3 lost schools on the conjurer specialist side (I favor losing Charm, Enchantment and a single school to personal taste).

I like the ideal of a future godling being intelligent and able to do lots of different things well including summoning other creatures to help him or her.

If LA buydown is in effect I'd take a +2 LA race like Half Fey or Phrenic.

Without LA buydown and with it in effect I'd consider taking a Major Bloodline from UA/SRD since it is paid down differently and the +0 Planetouched template.

[Frosty]

Let's assume that we're not allowing classes that advance two spellcasting classes at once, since classes like Mystic theurge is an example cited in the book as to what not to allow. Otherwise, very interesting build.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Oh man, no ToB; that would have made my dream Gestalt characters:

Paladin/Fighter/Cavalier // (White Raven) Warblade
or
DruidZilla // (Iron Heart / Stone Dragon) Warblade
or
Barbarian/Fighter/Frenzied Berserker // (Setting Sun / Iron Heart / Tiger Claw) Swordsage

You could go simple as Batman Wizard // DruidZilla.... oh gods... the POWER!

[Frosty]

1) ToB is allowed. I forgot to add it to the list.
2) No Druid allowed. and being a cleric would be very strange. You derive your power from a god...but you ARE a god. Maybe worship an ideal?

[Talya]

It should be something that makes sense thematically, not a random amalgamation of dips to make the most mechanically powerful character. Also assume that the players will not necessarily be working with each other, although they do not necessarily work against each other either. This character should be somewhat self-sufficient, so most likely this character should have some form of magical prowess.

I built an elf once that was Fighter 4/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 10/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2/(other of your choice) 1. It all fit together, thematically. It's designed as a whirling blade dance of chaotic elvish destruction. If you built that on one side, then went with Beguiler on the other side, you'd be pretty neat. The intelligence requirement is synergistic between sides of the gestalt, but the character is primarily melee, with magical abilities on the side.


Edit: TOB being allowed utterly changes all of the above. I would be highly tempted to go all melee on a gestalt build that allows Tome of Battle.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

No Druid allowed; I can see why; it does get overpowered quite quickly.

Well, in all honesty, I like the idea of the Paladin/Cavalier // Warblade the most. The only thing that is going to suck is your Reflex save, but you are going to have a powerful Mount (I went with Celestial Mount [BoED] feat and a Drakkensteed [Dragon Magic]). You don't have great spellcasting, little to none as a matter of fact; but the Cavalier is a well build Paladin based Pr-class, it is not overpowered, and does give some really kickarse Mounted combat abilities. The Paladin, as you know, has some cheese with the Divine Health and Save bonuses (so it is not worth it to dump CHA). If you are familiar with Warblade, then you know about the Maneuvers that he can perform, with a lance is going to be the ultimate in funny. I prefer White Raven maneuvers for this character; he is going to have an awesome amount of HP and great armor.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Let's assume that we're not allowing classes that advance two spellcasting classes at once, since classes like Mystic theurge is an example cited in the book as to what not to allow. Otherwise, very interesting build.

Keeping it simple a variant Intelligence based Spellcaster would be legal as per the note on UA page 72 which would open up All spell lists to the PC for cherry picking to personal taste (things like Fast Healing 1, Anyspell (if not taking the Spell domain), Flamestrike, Shadow Conjuration, Heal, Shades, SM7 for summoning a Movanic Deva, Miracle). It would be strong even without PRCs because of what the PC can get for those bonus feats at levels 1, 4, 10, 15 and 20 plus choosing the best save for the spellcaster side.

Spellcaster -5, MotAO - 7 for full limited Spell pool access of arcane spells 1 - 9 which would be really strong with the Extra Ring feat and Rings of Theurgy 20,000 gp for the additional 3 known spells per ring, Abjurant Champion - 5, 3 PRCs to personal taste (Something like Sandshaper probably a good ideal for the extra known spells).

Beguiler with 1+ level dips in the Sand Shaper PRC for extra known spells along with the Arcane Discipline for the Spell domain with Ruathor - 3, ACM-5, Loremaster -2 and 5 levels of Abjurant Champion (Lose 1 level or more for the Sandshaper PRC).


If you want to play LG with some MAD:

Factotum -1, Cleric - 16 (15 with a level of Marshal -1) , PRC Pal - 3// Archivist -1, Factotum +2, Archivist +4, Celestial Mystic - 10, Archivist -3 level 9 spell casting on both sides, plus IPs and Divine Grace.

[JaxGaret]

Crusader//FavoredSoul/FistOfRaziel would make for a simple, powerful holy warrior.

Throw in Sacred Exorcist on the FS side for DMM if you want it.

[ealan]

lets go rogue 20 on one side and fighter 4 swashbuckler 16 on the other.

taking daring outlaw and daring warrior as feats when prereq is met.

you then have a sneak attack of level 34 rogue, all 20 levels of fighter feats and 40 levels of grace and dodge.

[JaxGaret]

lets go rogue 20 on one side and fighter 4 swashbuckler 16 on the other.

taking daring outlaw and daring warrior as feats when prereq is met.

you then have a sneak attack of level 34 rogue, all 20 levels of fighter feats and 40 levels of grace and dodge.

There's no way that your math is correct.

This is misinterpretation of the rules at its finest here.

[ealan]

Well if your a stickler. Not much my DM could do about it he just said lvl 15 gestalt. I took off and pushed every limit.

1. Your swashbulckler levels stack with fighter and rogue for grace and dodge
2. Your fighter levels stack with swachbuckler levels for fighter bonus feats
3. Your rogue levels stack with your swashbuckler levels for sneak attack.

[JaxGaret]

Well if your a stickler. Not much my DM could do about it he just said lvl 15 gestalt. I took off and pushed every limit.

1. Your swashbulckler levels stack with fighter and rogue for grace and dodge
2. Your fighter levels stack with swachbuckler levels for fighter bonus feats
3. Your rogue levels stack with your swashbuckler levels for sneak attack.

The above violates this rule of gestalt:

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

And violates this principle of gestalt:

Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.

Since feats such as those published in the CScoundrel that combine two class' features were not available at the time of the publication of UA, in which the gestalt rules reside, I believe that these feats represent the sort of thing that this suggestion covers.

[Chronicled]

Things I like:

Wizard//Beguiler. Two Int based casters, 1 prepared and one spontaneous, with an obscene amount of skills. Take Enchantment and Illusion as your Wizard banned schools, since a Beguiler's got that covered. The real problem here is the poor Fort/Ref saves, but that's about it. You're Batman with a slew of Enchantment and Illusion spells in reserve; do all the fun wizard PrCing, and leave Beguiler the entire way.

Wizard//Duskblade/Swiftblade is fun. You use Wizard to get Haste to qualify you for Swiftblade, then have the Swiftblade advance your Duskblade caster levels (meaning you don't lose out on 9th level spells, as full Swiftblades normally do). Full BAB, 9th level spells, decent saves, and very nifty abilities. Fun, and quite decent without being broken.

Crusader//Knight for Charisma synergy and about the ultimate tank--who just. won't. die. No spells, though.

Cloistered Cleric/Cleric PrCs//Swordsage is one of *the* strongest gestalt builds (Cleric//Druid and Wizard//Archivist are some of the only ones that beat it.); the synergy here is incredible. You can do a lot of different things with this setup.

Edit: As for being a cleric and a god... you grant yourself spells.

[Talya]

Well if your a stickler. Not much my DM could do about it he just said lvl 15 gestalt. I took off and pushed every limit.

1. Your swashbulckler levels stack with fighter and rogue for grace and dodge
2. Your fighter levels stack with swachbuckler levels for fighter bonus feats
3. Your rogue levels stack with your swashbuckler levels for sneak attack.

While allowing stacking between sides of the gestalt is iffy (You can't make a level 40 wizard by taking 20 wizard/20 wizard), I'll let it slide, because one you got entirely wrong by the rules.

Your fighter levels do not stack with swashbuckler levels for acquiring fighter bonus feats. They only stack with them for qualifying for fighter bonus feats. That means the swashbuckler does not get fighter bonus feats, but does count as a 20 fighter for allowing access to the weapon focus/specialization tree.

If I were trying to break the rules (which really go against the spirit of the gestalt rules anyway), I'd do what you did with 10 swashbuckler/10 rogue//20 fighter. By level 11 you'd qualify for epic fighter bonus feats.

[Charlie Kemek]

water sujuna/sorcerer or water sujunga/warmage
2 classes of spellcasting using charasma

[Riffington]

Wizard/Warblade just can't suck. No optimization necessary. Just pick feats, spells, and maneuvers at random - you still won't suck.

[Necromas]

I like the idea of Warmage//Sorcerer for the nutty cha synergy, and the fact that you can rely on the warmage side for all your blasting needs which frees up the sorcerer side to use their spells known on powerful spells warmages miss out on. The warmage bonus feats can also be used on your sorc spells, and a spellthief dip on either side would let you get light armor casting for the sorc side if you really dont wanna miss out on armored mage.

It's a nice alternative to Wiz//Sorc.

[Chronicled]

Wizard/Warblade just can't suck. No optimization necessary. Just pick feats, spells, and maneuvers at random - you still won't suck.

Do I have to stat out a build to prove you wrong? (I agree with the principle of the thing, of course.)

[Ryuuk]

I'd go Warblade//Psion actually. Focus on Diamond Mind with the Warblade and on Psychometabolism with the Psion. Diamond Mind will feed of the max ranks in concentration and the Psychometabolism powers will help you buff up in melee. It just seems to fit well in my eyes.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm, it's simple and has good saves. But I was hoping more for feat selections and general strategies in combat instead of just how many levels of each build. Like, what kind of style would this character focus on? Using spells to buff his archery? Or perhaps he's a blaster who also happens to shoot arrows?

Hmm...

Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10/Archmage-5//Paladin-5/Monk-15 (you can trade Monk for Paladin levels to taste)

You'll need at least three feats to qualify for the Mage of the Arcane Order: Cooperative Metamagic, Arcane Preparation, and an additional metamagic feat. Which means you need to be a human, a Strongheart Halfling, or have a flaw.

Other feats you'll want:
Ascetic Mage (Complete Adventurer): Monk and Sorcerer levels stack to determine Monkish AC, Monkish AC based of Charisma, plus some other nifties that are less important.
Ascetic Knight (Complete Adventurer): Monk and Paladin levels stack to determine Monkish unarmed damage and Smite Evil bonuses.
Heighten Spell: Very useful for a Sorcerer to pump save DC's.
Reserve Feats: You want one of these, maybe two, for when you're expecting a long day of mooks. You'll probably do best with that shapeshifting one, for the swift action temporary HP.

Basic strategy:
Stats: Focus on Charisma first (It's AC, saves, spell DC, bonus spells), Con second, Dex third.
Equipment: Focus on Charisma first (It's AC, saves, spell DC, bonus spells), then standard stuff - AC Boosters, save boosters, other stat boosters. Remember, lots of stacking boosts are generally less expensive than a small number of large boosters for the effect they have.
Spells: You want a decent Fort save or lose, a decent Will save or lose, and a decent Reflex save or lose, and a good no-save spell. Combined with Heighten Spell, you've got your basic bases covered. Beyond that, make your spell list as flexible as possible (you're playing batman - a few basics: Polymorph, the Shadow line (the entire PHB set - seriously - it does that much for you at every level), Fly (for everyone else when in cramped quarters), Invisibility, Mind Blank, Overland Flight (for you)), but ALWAYS include Limited Wish (I'll get to why, and why I list "ALWAYS" on there, too).
Archmage High Arcana:
Mastery of Elements: Always funny to summon an Electricity Elemental, but it's got lots of other creative uses too - like making it so you only need one real no-save, no-SR blasting spell. It's a gem.
Arcane Reach: For when you want to reach out and touch someone, but you don't want to be in touching range. Very useful, take it.
Mastery of Shaping: You can cut loose with AoE spells without worrying about friendlies. A gem.
Spell Power: This is good. Take it repeatedly if you're permitted. Feeds your spells directly, and also controls how much you can take from the Spellpool on a given day.

Why Limited Wish?
Magic-Psionics transparency.
Spell interact with powers the same way spells interact with spells, and vice-versa. Psychic Reformation is a 4th level Psion power. With the 300 XP for Limited Wish, you can change the last six levels of skills, feats, and (as powers and spells are interchangeable under transparency) spells known. You can adapt to a situation in one standard action - faster even than the Batman Wizard, although it costs you more (300 xp).

[Frosty]

Jack, your idea is terrific...and has enough details for me to really be intrigued and want to research this some more.

Now, how many levels of monk would you recommend? And this could actually work quite well for my character concept. I envision my character being in charge of his own planar city of some sort. He'd be reminiscent of the Lady of Pain, but much nicer (will be LG or NG).

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, characters get an 75 point-buy in this game.

[Talya]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, characters get an 75 point-buy in this game.

...

...

Yes, you will be gods.

That allows you no less than four 18s.

Your other two scores will be 13 and 14 respectively... (or a 16 and a 9.)

[Jack_Simth]

Jack, your idea is terrific...and has enough details for me to really be intrigued and want to research this some more.

Now, how many levels of monk would you recommend? And this could actually work quite well for my character concept. I envision my character being in charge of his own planar city of some sort. He'd be reminiscent of the Lady of Pain, but much nicer (will be LG or NG).

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, characters get an 75 point-buy in this game.

As you're going to be wanting the Paladin side for Divine Grace (Charisma to saves for a Charisma-based caster) you'll need to be LG for that build (unless you use a variant Paladin).

Paladin vs. Monk:
This is a matter of taste. More Paladin levels give you more HP, more Lay on of Hands, better BAB, more Smites (not that you'll use them), and a better Mount (not that you'll use it, except for the carrying capacity that can bypass extra-dimensional space issues). More Monk levels give you better saves, more skills, and Monk nifties. Timeless Body at Monk-17/Paladin-3 gets you all of the Paladin Immunities, and lets you grown old without growing weak. I picked 5/15 simply for the pairing with 5 base levels in Sorcerer (which match the five missing levels of Monk for unarmed AC) - and that's the only reason, really.

[Archangel Yuki]

...

...

Yes, you will be gods.

That allows you no less than four 18s.

Your other two scores will be 13 and 14 respectively... (or a 16 and a 9.)

Plus, 20th level character. You get 5 ability score enhancements.

With that many good ability scores, take something that totally covers one another. You can make a character that dose not have many weak points if you play it right.

[Chronicled]

I'd go Warblade//Psion actually. Focus on Diamond Mind with the Warblade and on Psychometabolism with the Psion. Diamond Mind will feed of the max ranks in concentration and the Psychometabolism powers will help you buff up in melee. It just seems to fit well in my eyes.

I've played this. It works really well. The psionic focus meshes superbly with Diamond Mind maneuvers, among other things.

[Douglas]

In any suggested build involving Monk, replace Monk with Swordsage.

If you really want to be a melee monster, do a Cleric 20//Swordsage 20, take Intuitive Attack, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), load up on Nightsticks, and browse the Spell Compendium (in addition to core) for an incredible list of all-day buffs. Wisdom to AC in light armor, bonus spells, save DCs, and attacks with simple weapons, improved evasion, good saves, a HUGE list of Codzilla buffs, Cleric casting, and Swordsage maneuvers. Add PrCs to taste.

[Chronicled]

In any suggested build involving Monk, replace Monk with Swordsage.

If you really want to be a melee monster, do a Cleric 20//Swordsage 20, take Intuitive Attack, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), load up on Nightsticks, and browse the Spell Compendium (in addition to core) for an incredible list of all-day buffs. Wisdom to AC in light armor, bonus spells, save DCs, and attacks with simple weapons, improved evasion, good saves, a HUGE list of Codzilla buffs, Cleric casting, and Swordsage maneuvers. Add PrCs to taste.

Cloistered Cleric//Swordsage is strictly better than Cleric//Swordsage.

And in the case of Jack's suggested build, Monk is used due to the feat Ascetic Mage, which allows Cha to AC. The feat doesn't work with a Swordsage, unless your DM is really lenient.