Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

[Renegade Paladin]

Shivering touch damages the target's DEX score.

Draining DEX to 0 results in paralysis.

Dragons are immune to paralysis.

The trick doesn't work and never has worked. Sorry, hoard-stealers, time to go back to the drawing board.

[Tyger]

Actually, it says dragons are immune to "paralysis effects" this is not the case.

It also says that dragons are immune to magic sleep... does that mean they never sleep? :)

Not disputing th eultimate cheese of the spell, but having your body unable to move because you have 0 DEX is not the same as being hit with a paralysis effect. Just my two cents of course.

[Stabby]

You might want to:

1. read the dragon immunities again
2. realize that its listed right after MAGICAL sleep, ie its magical paralysis
3. realize that dragons arn't immune to ability damage
4. recognize that in the paralysis description is says dex is effectivly zero, but since it IS zero its not immune
5. [Scrubbed]

But hey, thats just me. But I think you are just miss reading it.

*curses, ninja'd*

[Person_Man]

You're misreading the ability score loss rules:

While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.

• Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
• Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
• Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.
• Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
• Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
• Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.

Dex 0 means your Helpless, not Paralyzed.

[Renegade Paladin]

You might want to:

1. read the dragon immunities again
2. realize that its listed right after MAGICAL sleep, ie its magical paralysis
3. realize that dragons arn't immune to ability damage
4. recognize that in the paralysis description is says dex is effectivly zero, but since it IS zero its not immune
5. [Scrubbed]

But hey, thats just me. But I think you are just miss reading it.

*curses, ninja'd*

[Scrubbed] I don't know what post you were reading, but I somehow doubt it was mine. In any case, just because dragons are immune to magical sleep doesn't mean that their paralysis immunity only applies to magic. Not that shivering touch isn't magic, but I digress. What the paralysis description says about making DEX effectively zero is irrelevant; the section on your DEX actually being zero says the target is paralyzed.

You're misreading the ability score loss rules:



Dex 0 means your Helpless, not Paralyzed.

I suppose I'll have to quote the contents of the link I provided, since you evidently won't go read it there.

Ability Damaged

The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.

Sorry, you lose.

[MCerberus]

Dex 0 means the creature cannot effectively move due to no muscle coordination. It seems like the way it's described is similar to poisoning caused by the Tetanus virus (IE - lockjaw). Non-conscious muscles (heart, digestion, lungs to a certain amount) still work.

Now, magical paralysis freezes muscles in thier place. They aren't contracting on their own or anything. They're just locked in place.

While they are similar, they are still different.

[Talya]

From your own source:

Immunities (Ex)
All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. Each variety of dragon has immunity to one or two additional forms of attack no matter what its age, as given in its description.

Paralysis from ability score loss is not an "effect." It's a state of being. Dragons are still utterly helpless if their dexterity reaches zero...an object without dexterity cannot move.

[Chrismith]

So by this logic, if I have a magic item that protects me from death effects, I won't die even if my hit points are reduced below -10? Rock on!

[Telonius]

Interesting quirk there. The description under Ability Scores says a 0 STR is helpless, and a 0 DEX is paralyzed. The description of Paralyzed says that your scores for both STR and DEX are effectively zero. So you are correct on that count.

However, the Dragon entry doesn't say that Dragons are immune to paralysis. It says they're immune to paralysis effects. There's a big difference there. For a counter-example, consider the spell "Death Ward." It protects against death effects. That doesn't mean that a character under the spell can't die; it merely prevents magic that specifically cause that status. A Fireball could still kill the subject. In the same way, a spell could reduce a Dex score to cause the "paralyzed" condition on a Dragon. But a Ghoul couldn't use his Paralysis effect on the Dragon.

Nor do any of these effects grant the user immunity to Ninjas.

[Renegade Paladin]

So by this logic, if I have a magic item that protects me from death effects, I won't die even if my hit points are reduced below -10? Rock on!

*Sigh* No, because a death effect and hit point loss are two different things. Hit point loss is not a death effect. However, paralysis is paralysis.

[kamikasei]

*Sigh* No, because a death effect and hit point loss are two different things. Hit point loss is not a death effect. However, paralysis is paralysis.

Hit point loss past a certain threshold causes death without being a death effect. Therefore, ability score damage can cause paralysis without being a paralysis effect. If you'll let slide wording that "a character reduced below -10 HP is dead", why not "a character with DEX drained to 0 is paralyzed"?

[Frosty]

Who cares. If the OP wants to run it this way ih his games he can. The rest of us will keep ST as is, and run our dragons intelligently to expect that kinda spell.

[Chrismith]

*Sigh* No, because a death effect and hit point loss are two different things. Hit point loss is not a death effect. However, paralysis is paralysis.

Really? They don't look that different to me. HP below ten = death; Dex below 1 = paralysis. I agree that death and paralysis effects are different, but you only seem to be able to make that distinction for death, not paralysis.

[BadJuJu]

*Sigh* No, because a death effect and hit point loss are two different things. Hit point loss is not a death effect. However, paralysis is paralysis.

So, a ring of Freedom of Movement will negate all strength and dex damage because it prevents impedments to movement? Not so. Paralysis effects are negated, paralysis from a 0 ability score wont. Otherwise death ward protects against a con of 0, because its a death effect. Out of all the rules you can find holes in, pick a slightly more winnable battle.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I suppose I'll have to quote the contents of the link I provided, since you evidently won't go read it there.

I think you should also read the quote the Cheese Head provided.

So you were right it does say paralyzed, which seems to me a poor wording for our purposes, because if you have 0 DEX and can still move things are getting a bit strange.

Luckily we also have the other quote that says you cannot move at all. You stand motionless, rigid and most importantly; You are helpless, a condition Dragons are not immune to.

Sorry, you lose.

I think we should all agree that we are all winners....

[the_tick_rules]

agreed, immobility due to a 0 dex score is dif from paralysis and would thus affect dragons. but dragons have high SR and have a good chance of defeating spell that way.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hit point loss past a certain threshold causes death without being a death effect. Therefore, ability score damage can cause paralysis without being a paralysis effect. If you'll let slide wording that "a character reduced below -10 HP is dead", why not "a character with DEX drained to 0 is paralyzed"?

Because immunity to death effects is quite clear: You are immune to death effects, which is explicitly an entirely different condition from hit point damage or Constitution loss. There's no such distinction drawn for paralysis. Besides, I'm being hard on this bit of wording because it's one of the biggest pieces of cheese in the game and as such deserves to have as stringent a reading put upon it as possible.

[Indon]

So, a ring of Freedom of Movement will negate all strength and dex damage because it prevents impedments to movement?

I imagine it would only prevent dealing strength/dex damage when the stat is at 1.

Also, why doesn't a ring of Freedom of Movement remove armor check penalties? Armor check penalties are the effect on armor's restricting your movement.

[Moogle0119]

Besides, I'm being hard on this bit of wording because it's one of the biggest pieces of cheese in the game and as such deserves to have as stringent a reading put upon it as possible.

Personal bias should not affect any player or DMs ability to interpret what the rules specifically say as per RAW. You are more than certainly welcome to administer your own rule 0 in your game, however it's fairly obvious that as per RAW dragons when reduced to 0 Dex are immobile because they helpless/paralyzed, not due to a paralysis effect. By your own "interpretation" of the rules, if a dragon were to have it's backbone splintered into a thousand pieces, removed from the body, and then disintergrated into nothingness then the dragon would still be able to move on its own without any magical intervention necessary.

[sikyon]

Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.

By English, the magic adjective applies to both the objects "effects" and "effects".

Therefore Dragons are only immune to magic sleep and magic paralysis.

It should be read this way: Immunity to magic [sleep effects and paralysis effects.]

Not this way: Immunity to magic sleep effects and [Immunity to] paralysis effects.

[Duke of URL]

dragons have high SR and have a good chance of defeating spell that way.

If you're going dragon hunting, then SR isn't going to be a problem because you'll have prepared for that with spells/scrolls/wands of assay resistance (or similar), spell penetration feats, and maybe a high-CHA Marshal with a Determined Caster aura active.

A Great Wyrm Red Dragon only has an SR of 32 -- let's say our caster is CL 15th, plus Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration feats. Hit the dragon with assay resistance and you're rolling 1d20+19 vs. DC 22 on spell resistance checks, that's a 90% success rate.

[Renegade Paladin]

Really? They don't look that different to me. HP below ten = death; Dex below 1 = paralysis. I agree that death and paralysis effects are different, but you only seem to be able to make that distinction for death, not paralysis.

Because the distinction doesn't exist in the rules for paralysis. The rules make it painstakingly clear that not all things that cause death are death effects; no such effort is made for paralysis.

So, a ring of Freedom of Movement will negate all strength and dex damage because it prevents impedments to movement? Not so. Paralysis effects are negated, paralysis from a 0 ability score wont. Otherwise death ward protects against a con of 0, because its a death effect. Out of all the rules you can find holes in, pick a slightly more winnable battle.

CON 0 is not a death effect. At all. If it were, then raise dead would not work on a character killed in that way. In fact, it would not work at all. Since raise dead exists and does not work on characters slain by death effects, we can suppose that there are fairly common ways of killing characters that are not death effects, namely CON damage and hit point loss.

I think you should also read the quote the Cheese Head provided.

So you were right it does say paralyzed, which seems to me a poor wording for our purposes, because if you have 0 DEX and can still move things are getting a bit strange.

Luckily we also have the other quote that says you cannot move at all. You stand motionless, rigid and most importantly; You are helpless, a condition Dragons are not immune to.

You're helpless when your DEX is 0 because you're paralyzed, and paralyzed characters are helpless. Conversely, if a dragon is exposed to paralysis but is immune to the same, the paralysis would not render him helpless.

[Indon]

Therefore Dragons are only immune to magic sleep and magic paralysis.

So a poison or other [Ex] effect can paralyze a Dragon?

Also, if you're magically dropping someone's Dex to 0, that would appear to be a magically-induced paralysis, methinks.

[sikyon]

So a poison or other [Ex] effect can paralyze a Dragon?

Also, if you're magically dropping someone's Dex to 0, that would appear to be a magically-induced paralysis, methinks.

Yes, [Ex] should be able to paralyze a dragon.

You are magically dropping their Dex to 0, but it is not a magical effect that Dex 0 means paralysis. You are 1 step removed, the same way conjuring acid is 1 step removed from spell resistance.

[Telonius]

So, can a Dragon take Dex damage at all? Is it only the last point of Dex damage that is the Paralysis effect?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

You're helpless when your DEX is 0 because you're paralyzed, and paralyzed characters are helpless.

That is not what it says though.

DEX 0 --> Paralyzed (--> Helpless)

AND

DEX 0 --> Helpless

It does not say that you are helpless because you are paralyzed. It says you are both Helpless and Paralyzed.

Conversely, if a dragon is exposed to paralysis but is immune to the same, the paralysis would not render him helpless.

That part should be obvious.

[Chronos]

This has come up before. Unfortunately, the online SRD disagrees with the printed rules, here: The printed rules say nothing about paralysis in the description of dex damage. It's obviously similar in some ways to paralysis, since both prevent movement, but the official (printed) rules don't use the p-word there.

[Indon]

Because the distinction doesn't exist in the rules for paralysis. The rules make it painstakingly clear that not all things that cause death are death effects; no such effort is made for paralysis.

Actually, from reviewing the Types and Subtypes (after finding it odd that Dragons would only be immune to magical effects of a certain type), it looks like a distinction is made.

Might I direct you to the entry right next to it alphabetically, the Elemental.

Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.

In fact, I don't see any other type that mentions paralysis effects - the Elemental, Plant, and other types appear to be immune to all forms of paralysis as you describe, but the Dragon's immunity is less comprehensive.

Edit: Also, level 1 Warforged get +20 HP?

Because its body is a mass of unliving matter, a construct is hard to destroy. It gains bonus hit points based on size, as shown on the table.

[Yakk]

First, the immunity is clearly to paralysis effects.

Second, the SRD says:

Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

I see no mention of "Paralysis" in that quote, and is sufficient to make a dragon defeated, directly from the SRD.

There is decent solution to "touch spells make dragons gimp", it is in the Draconomicon -- a 2nd level spell that makes the dragon's natural armor AC work against any supernatural touch attacks. It isn't perfect, but it exists. (Personally, if I was worried about that kind of cheese, I'd grant it as a natural ability of all dragons...)

So now you need shivering touch with a high to-hit at least. :/ Still isn't ideal.

Are there spells that buffer a stat from ability damage?

[Emperor Demonking]

This is why you need the core books.