Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 163
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Renegade Paladin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Indiana
    Gender
    Male

    Default Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Shivering touch damages the target's DEX score.

    Draining DEX to 0 results in paralysis.

    Dragons are immune to paralysis.

    The trick doesn't work and never has worked. Sorry, hoard-stealers, time to go back to the drawing board.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Tyger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Actually, it says dragons are immune to "paralysis effects" this is not the case.

    It also says that dragons are immune to magic sleep... does that mean they never sleep? :)

    Not disputing th eultimate cheese of the spell, but having your body unable to move because you have 0 DEX is not the same as being hit with a paralysis effect. Just my two cents of course.
    Thanks The Neoclassic for my avatar!

    Stark Raving Dad - a blog about life.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by theos911 View Post
    Fighter: I can kill a guy in one turn.
    Cleric: I can kill a guy in half a turn.
    Wizard: I can kill a guy before my turn!
    Bard: I can get 12 idiots to go kill guys for me
    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Oh, and Person-Man's real name is a little something called "SKYNET"

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    You might want to:
    1. read the dragon immunities again
    2. realize that its listed right after MAGICAL sleep, ie its magical paralysis
    3. realize that dragons arn't immune to ability damage
    4. recognize that in the paralysis description is says dex is effectivly zero, but since it IS zero its not immune
    5. [Scrubbed]


    But hey, thats just me. But I think you are just miss reading it.

    *curses, ninja'd*
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2008-01-15 at 09:01 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Person_Man's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    You're misreading the ability score loss rules:

    While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.
    • Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
    • Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
    • Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.
    • Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
    • Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
    • Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.
    Dex 0 means your Helpless, not Paralyzed.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Renegade Paladin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Indiana
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Stabby View Post
    You might want to:
    1. read the dragon immunities again
    2. realize that its listed right after MAGICAL sleep, ie its magical paralysis
    3. realize that dragons arn't immune to ability damage
    4. recognize that in the paralysis description is says dex is effectivly zero, but since it IS zero its not immune
    5. [Scrubbed]


    But hey, thats just me. But I think you are just miss reading it.

    *curses, ninja'd*
    [Scrubbed] I don't know what post you were reading, but I somehow doubt it was mine. In any case, just because dragons are immune to magical sleep doesn't mean that their paralysis immunity only applies to magic. Not that shivering touch isn't magic, but I digress. What the paralysis description says about making DEX effectively zero is irrelevant; the section on your DEX actually being zero says the target is paralyzed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    You're misreading the ability score loss rules:



    Dex 0 means your Helpless, not Paralyzed.
    I suppose I'll have to quote the contents of the link I provided, since you evidently won't go read it there.
    Ability Damaged

    The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.
    Sorry, you lose.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2008-01-15 at 09:02 PM.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    MCerberus's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    St. Louis
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Dex 0 means the creature cannot effectively move due to no muscle coordination. It seems like the way it's described is similar to poisoning caused by the Tetanus virus (IE - lockjaw). Non-conscious muscles (heart, digestion, lungs to a certain amount) still work.

    Now, magical paralysis freezes muscles in thier place. They aren't contracting on their own or anything. They're just locked in place.

    While they are similar, they are still different.
    Ask me about our low price vacation plans in the Elemental Plane of Puppies and Pie
    Spoiler
    Show

    Evoker avatar by kpenguin. Evoker Pony by Dirtytabs. Grey Mouser, disciple of cupcakes by me. Any and all commiepuppies by BRC

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Talya's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Icy Evil Canadia
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    From your own source:

    Immunities (Ex)
    All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. Each variety of dragon has immunity to one or two additional forms of attack no matter what its age, as given in its description.
    Paralysis from ability score loss is not an "effect." It's a state of being. Dragons are still utterly helpless if their dexterity reaches zero...an object without dexterity cannot move.
    Creator of the Vow of Nudity

    Spoiler
    Show

    We didn't cast the [Fire]...
    LGBTitP

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Chrismith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    So by this logic, if I have a magic item that protects me from death effects, I won't die even if my hit points are reduced below -10? Rock on!

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Telonius's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Wandering in Harrekh
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Interesting quirk there. The description under Ability Scores says a 0 STR is helpless, and a 0 DEX is paralyzed. The description of Paralyzed says that your scores for both STR and DEX are effectively zero. So you are correct on that count.

    However, the Dragon entry doesn't say that Dragons are immune to paralysis. It says they're immune to paralysis effects. There's a big difference there. For a counter-example, consider the spell "Death Ward." It protects against death effects. That doesn't mean that a character under the spell can't die; it merely prevents magic that specifically cause that status. A Fireball could still kill the subject. In the same way, a spell could reduce a Dex score to cause the "paralyzed" condition on a Dragon. But a Ghoul couldn't use his Paralysis effect on the Dragon.

    Nor do any of these effects grant the user immunity to Ninjas.
    Last edited by Telonius; 2008-01-15 at 12:19 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Renegade Paladin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Indiana
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrismith View Post
    So by this logic, if I have a magic item that protects me from death effects, I won't die even if my hit points are reduced below -10? Rock on!
    *Sigh* No, because a death effect and hit point loss are two different things. Hit point loss is not a death effect. However, paralysis is paralysis.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


  11. - Top - End - #11
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    *Sigh* No, because a death effect and hit point loss are two different things. Hit point loss is not a death effect. However, paralysis is paralysis.
    Hit point loss past a certain threshold causes death without being a death effect. Therefore, ability score damage can cause paralysis without being a paralysis effect. If you'll let slide wording that "a character reduced below -10 HP is dead", why not "a character with DEX drained to 0 is paralyzed"?

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Frosty's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Who cares. If the OP wants to run it this way ih his games he can. The rest of us will keep ST as is, and run our dragons intelligently to expect that kinda spell.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Chrismith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    *Sigh* No, because a death effect and hit point loss are two different things. Hit point loss is not a death effect. However, paralysis is paralysis.
    Really? They don't look that different to me. HP below ten = death; Dex below 1 = paralysis. I agree that death and paralysis effects are different, but you only seem to be able to make that distinction for death, not paralysis.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    *Sigh* No, because a death effect and hit point loss are two different things. Hit point loss is not a death effect. However, paralysis is paralysis.
    So, a ring of Freedom of Movement will negate all strength and dex damage because it prevents impedments to movement? Not so. Paralysis effects are negated, paralysis from a 0 ability score wont. Otherwise death ward protects against a con of 0, because its a death effect. Out of all the rules you can find holes in, pick a slightly more winnable battle.
    "Never argue with stupid people, they just drag you to their level and beat you in experience."

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lord Lorac Silvanos's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    IPR Violation
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    I suppose I'll have to quote the contents of the link I provided, since you evidently won't go read it there.
    I think you should also read the quote the Cheese Head provided.

    So you were right it does say paralyzed, which seems to me a poor wording for our purposes, because if you have 0 DEX and can still move things are getting a bit strange.

    Luckily we also have the other quote that says you cannot move at all. You stand motionless, rigid and most importantly; You are helpless, a condition Dragons are not immune to.

    Sorry, you lose.
    I think we should all agree that we are all winners....
    All Yours Popcorn are belongs to me truly,
    LLS

    ___________________________________
    Avatar by Ink.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    agreed, immobility due to a 0 dex score is dif from paralysis and would thus affect dragons. but dragons have high SR and have a good chance of defeating spell that way.
    Last edited by the_tick_rules; 2008-01-15 at 12:41 PM.
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Renegade Paladin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Indiana
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Hit point loss past a certain threshold causes death without being a death effect. Therefore, ability score damage can cause paralysis without being a paralysis effect. If you'll let slide wording that "a character reduced below -10 HP is dead", why not "a character with DEX drained to 0 is paralyzed"?
    Because immunity to death effects is quite clear: You are immune to death effects, which is explicitly an entirely different condition from hit point damage or Constitution loss. There's no such distinction drawn for paralysis. Besides, I'm being hard on this bit of wording because it's one of the biggest pieces of cheese in the game and as such deserves to have as stringent a reading put upon it as possible.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


  18. - Top - End - #18
    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by BadJuJu View Post
    So, a ring of Freedom of Movement will negate all strength and dex damage because it prevents impedments to movement?
    I imagine it would only prevent dealing strength/dex damage when the stat is at 1.

    Also, why doesn't a ring of Freedom of Movement remove armor check penalties? Armor check penalties are the effect on armor's restricting your movement.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Moogle0119's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin
    Besides, I'm being hard on this bit of wording because it's one of the biggest pieces of cheese in the game and as such deserves to have as stringent a reading put upon it as possible.
    Personal bias should not affect any player or DMs ability to interpret what the rules specifically say as per RAW. You are more than certainly welcome to administer your own rule 0 in your game, however it's fairly obvious that as per RAW dragons when reduced to 0 Dex are immobile because they helpless/paralyzed, not due to a paralysis effect. By your own "interpretation" of the rules, if a dragon were to have it's backbone splintered into a thousand pieces, removed from the body, and then disintergrated into nothingness then the dragon would still be able to move on its own without any magical intervention necessary.
    Last edited by Moogle0119; 2008-01-15 at 12:49 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
    By English, the magic adjective applies to both the objects "effects" and "effects".

    Therefore Dragons are only immune to magic sleep and magic paralysis.

    It should be read this way: Immunity to magic [sleep effects and paralysis effects.]

    Not this way: Immunity to magic sleep effects and [Immunity to] paralysis effects.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Library Lovers Contest Winner
     
    Duke of URL's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by the_tick_rules View Post
    dragons have high SR and have a good chance of defeating spell that way.
    If you're going dragon hunting, then SR isn't going to be a problem because you'll have prepared for that with spells/scrolls/wands of assay resistance (or similar), spell penetration feats, and maybe a high-CHA Marshal with a Determined Caster aura active.

    A Great Wyrm Red Dragon only has an SR of 32 -- let's say our caster is CL 15th, plus Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration feats. Hit the dragon with assay resistance and you're rolling 1d20+19 vs. DC 22 on spell resistance checks, that's a 90% success rate.


    My Homebrew
    Gronk by dallas-dakota

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Renegade Paladin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Indiana
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrismith View Post
    Really? They don't look that different to me. HP below ten = death; Dex below 1 = paralysis. I agree that death and paralysis effects are different, but you only seem to be able to make that distinction for death, not paralysis.
    Because the distinction doesn't exist in the rules for paralysis. The rules make it painstakingly clear that not all things that cause death are death effects; no such effort is made for paralysis.
    Quote Originally Posted by BadJuJu View Post
    So, a ring of Freedom of Movement will negate all strength and dex damage because it prevents impedments to movement? Not so. Paralysis effects are negated, paralysis from a 0 ability score wont. Otherwise death ward protects against a con of 0, because its a death effect. Out of all the rules you can find holes in, pick a slightly more winnable battle.
    CON 0 is not a death effect. At all. If it were, then raise dead would not work on a character killed in that way. In fact, it would not work at all. Since raise dead exists and does not work on characters slain by death effects, we can suppose that there are fairly common ways of killing characters that are not death effects, namely CON damage and hit point loss.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Silvanos View Post
    I think you should also read the quote the Cheese Head provided.

    So you were right it does say paralyzed, which seems to me a poor wording for our purposes, because if you have 0 DEX and can still move things are getting a bit strange.

    Luckily we also have the other quote that says you cannot move at all. You stand motionless, rigid and most importantly; You are helpless, a condition Dragons are not immune to.
    You're helpless when your DEX is 0 because you're paralyzed, and paralyzed characters are helpless. Conversely, if a dragon is exposed to paralysis but is immune to the same, the paralysis would not render him helpless.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


  23. - Top - End - #23
    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by sikyon View Post
    Therefore Dragons are only immune to magic sleep and magic paralysis.
    So a poison or other [Ex] effect can paralyze a Dragon?

    Also, if you're magically dropping someone's Dex to 0, that would appear to be a magically-induced paralysis, methinks.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Indon View Post
    So a poison or other [Ex] effect can paralyze a Dragon?

    Also, if you're magically dropping someone's Dex to 0, that would appear to be a magically-induced paralysis, methinks.
    Yes, [Ex] should be able to paralyze a dragon.

    You are magically dropping their Dex to 0, but it is not a magical effect that Dex 0 means paralysis. You are 1 step removed, the same way conjuring acid is 1 step removed from spell resistance.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Telonius's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Wandering in Harrekh
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    So, can a Dragon take Dex damage at all? Is it only the last point of Dex damage that is the Paralysis effect?

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lord Lorac Silvanos's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    IPR Violation
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    You're helpless when your DEX is 0 because you're paralyzed, and paralyzed characters are helpless.
    That is not what it says though.

    DEX 0 --> Paralyzed (--> Helpless)

    AND

    DEX 0 --> Helpless

    It does not say that you are helpless because you are paralyzed. It says you are both Helpless and Paralyzed.

    Conversely, if a dragon is exposed to paralysis but is immune to the same, the paralysis would not render him helpless.
    That part should be obvious.
    All Yours Popcorn are belongs to me truly,
    LLS

    ___________________________________
    Avatar by Ink.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Land of Cleves
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    This has come up before. Unfortunately, the online SRD disagrees with the printed rules, here: The printed rules say nothing about paralysis in the description of dex damage. It's obviously similar in some ways to paralysis, since both prevent movement, but the official (printed) rules don't use the p-word there.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Because the distinction doesn't exist in the rules for paralysis. The rules make it painstakingly clear that not all things that cause death are death effects; no such effort is made for paralysis.
    Actually, from reviewing the Types and Subtypes (after finding it odd that Dragons would only be immune to magical effects of a certain type), it looks like a distinction is made.

    Might I direct you to the entry right next to it alphabetically, the Elemental.

    Quote Originally Posted by www.d20srd.org
    Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.
    In fact, I don't see any other type that mentions paralysis effects - the Elemental, Plant, and other types appear to be immune to all forms of paralysis as you describe, but the Dragon's immunity is less comprehensive.

    Edit: Also, level 1 Warforged get +20 HP?

    Quote Originally Posted by www.d20srd.org
    Because its body is a mass of unliving matter, a construct is hard to destroy. It gains bonus hit points based on size, as shown on the table.
    Last edited by Indon; 2008-01-15 at 01:07 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    First, the immunity is clearly to paralysis effects.

    Second, the SRD says:
    Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
    I see no mention of "Paralysis" in that quote, and is sufficient to make a dragon defeated, directly from the SRD.

    There is decent solution to "touch spells make dragons gimp", it is in the Draconomicon -- a 2nd level spell that makes the dragon's natural armor AC work against any supernatural touch attacks. It isn't perfect, but it exists. (Personally, if I was worried about that kind of cheese, I'd grant it as a natural ability of all dragons...)

    So now you need shivering touch with a high to-hit at least. :/ Still isn't ideal.

    Are there spells that buffer a stat from ability damage?

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RedKnightGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Not in Trogland

    Default Re: Shivering touch does not shut down dragons

    This is why you need the core books.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •