Dual Lances (AKA Die, Die, My Darling)

[Deepblue706]

Okay, okay, I know this sounds pretty stupid, but when I was considering damage potential for a fighter a while back, it seemed Spirited Charge makes for a great hit. Now, let's say I get two lances. When doing a charge, you make one attack, unless you have pounce - yes? Grab that, and Oversized Two-Weapon fighting for two lances (A Lance is normally a two-handed weapon, but when mounted, it can be wielded with one hand). Then, take the Cavalier PrC. Wowzers.

Let's take a look at the mechanical build

1 Barbarian (for Lion Totem - Pounce)
8 Fighter (5 feats)

at level 9, one should have 4 feats normally.

Let's make this guy a human.

1 Mounted Combat
1H Power Attack
2F Improved Bull Rush
3 Ride-By Attack
3F Spirited Charge
5F Two-Weapon Fighting
6 Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
7F Shock Trooper
9 Weapon Focus: Lance
9F Weapon Specialization: Lance

Now, let's take 10 levels of Cavalier, and one level of anything other than Fighter, for fun.

What other feats? Depends on how Monkey Grip works (I forget!) - if it lets you wield a larger lance size than normal, we can up our damage die. I'll exclude it for now.

12 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
15 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18 Greater Weapon Focus: Lance (?)

Starting stats, 25 pt buy:

STR 16
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 8
WIS 9
CHA 8

End Stats (level 20)

STR 16 + 5 inherent + 5 level bonus + 6 Magic item = 32 (+11 mod), yes?
DEX 16 + 6 Magic Item = 22 (+6 mod)
Let's now consider the weapons:

Lance +5, Lance +5. What do we add? Eh, nothing now, this should be good enough.

Charge!!

Using Shock Trooper for a Full-Power Attack, and Pouncing on our Charge, we get

Lance 1: Gets four attacks that deal [1d8 (base damage, avg = 4.5) +11 (strength bonus) +20 (power attack) +5 (magic bonus) +2 (specialization)], each one of which is multiplied by 5, because of the Cavalier's Unstoppable Charge ability. Regular average damage: 4.5+11+20+5+2 = 42.5. Multiplied by 5 = 212.5. Four of those.

Lance 2: Gets three attacks that deal [1d8 +5 (halved strength bonus) +20 +5 + 2], all of which that are multiplied by 5 as well. Regular average damage: 36.5. Multiplied by 5 = 182.5. Three of those.

This Cavalier can force as many as 7 Fort saves (massive damage threshold) in a single round, not including the benefits from haste (another attack could mean another save!).

That's not even counting Rage.

Am I missing something? Did I interpret something incorrectly? Let me know!

[Irreverent Fool]

Without dusting off my ubercharger sheet, I believe that you are better off two-handing a lance while charging to get that extra damage and the 2-for-1 trade with power attack as well as an actual chance to hit.

If you tried this in my game, I'd say, 'Well, yes... but the rules say you may wield a lance in one hand while mounted, not two.' Either that or some knight errant with a similar build would challenge you to a joust...

I'm not saying some crazy bastard coming at you on some slavering warbeast with two gigantic spikes jutting from where his hands should be isn't awesome.

Edit: Can you afford two +5 lances at level 10 by WBL?

[marjan]

As far as I can tell everything looks all-right.

Add Valorous (UE IIRC) to your lances to deal double dmg on your charge attacks. GWF is not worth it, better take Melee Weapon Mastery for +2 to hit and dmg.

[Deepblue706]

well, let's see...

2:1

4 attacks, each x5.

(20+20)*4=160, as opposed to 80 for 1-handing, thus makes the difference 80.

80x5=400

182.5x3= 527.5, does it not?

Of course, two-handing, I'm sure, would be much more reliable (considering all the minuses of two-weapon fighting)

[marjan]

Edit: Can you afford two +5 lances at level 10 by WBL?

It's lvl20 build.

[Deepblue706]

I'm not saying some crazy bastard coming at you on some slavering warbeast with two gigantic spikes jutting from where his hands should be isn't awesome.

Which was the primary inspiration for me to continue with the exercise!

Edit: Can you afford two +5 lances at level 10 by WBL?

10? No - this is modelled to be level 20. If you mean 20, I believe so - I think you have like millions of gold at that point, and +5 weapons would be only a couple of hundred thousand, at most. I think. I don't really play high-level games.

[marjan]

Of course, two-handing, I'm sure, would be much more reliable (considering all the minuses of two-weapon fighting)

Plus a lot cheaper, but that's probably not the point of the build.
Is there maybe Exotic version of lances or something similar to use EWM for Uncanny Blow.

[Irreverent Fool]

It's lvl20 build.

So it is. My mistake.

[Proven_Paradox]

Considering this for Barin, perhaps? <<

Anyway, typically, it'd be a better idea to take a single lance and use it with both hands. That way, instead of +20 from power attack, you get +40, for a grand total of 100 damage more on each strike, without the attack penalties you get from TWF. You're assuming each attack hits, and I never assume any of my attacks beyond the second have a decent chance of hitting.

Still, it's a monster of a build. No, you cannot do that in my game. As Fool said, you can weild a lance one handed while mounted.

[marjan]

I think you have like millions of gold at that point

Not millions, but 760k is close enough.

[Deepblue706]

Plus a lot cheaper, but that's probably not the point of the build.

Is there maybe Exotic version of lances or something similar to use EWM for Uncanny Blow.

Don't believe so, but I see what you mean.

[The_Snark]

If you sell your soul to Baphomet, you can get the ability to do double damage on a charge. (Again.)

No, really. Abyss-bound Soul feat, Fiendish Codex I. Just... don't die.

[Deepblue706]

Considering this for Barin, perhaps? <<
beyond the second have a decent chance of hitting.

Still, it's a monster of a build. No, you cannot do that in my game. As Fool said, you can weild a lance one handed while mounted.

Damn!

No, I would never play this. Far too vulernable to magic. That is, of course, why I'll be convincing a fellow player to make this character, and I'll be his "best friend", who is by chance, an Enchanter.

[Deepblue706]

Anyway, typically, it'd be a better idea to take a single lance and use it with both hands. That way, instead of +20 from power attack, you get +40, for a grand total of 100 damage more on each strike, without the attack penalties you get from TWF. You're assuming each attack hits, and I never assume any of my attacks beyond the second have a decent chance of hitting.

It's more about the damage potential, than the reliability of the build.

Plus, it's two freakin' lances. That's amazing, and you know it.

[Mojo_Rat]

This seems to me one of those cases where reality needs to just kick the game mechanics to the curb. For one when you use a lance you Hit the target to your right (or left in the case of a left handed jouster i suppose) This means that in the case of 2 lances means one lance would have to go crosswise accross your body and the force of impact would likely kill you :)


Unless of yourse your intent is to just ram into things head long like a car and not worry about wether You or your mount can walk away from it.

[Irreverent Fool]

It's lvl20 build.

So it is. My mistake.

[marjan]

Unless of yourse your intent is to just ram into things head long like a car and not worry about wether You or your mount can walk away from it.

Easy Answer: Trample them.

[Deepblue706]

Unless of yourse your intent is to just ram into things head long like a car and not worry about wether You or your mount can walk away from it.

I AM using Shock Trooper in the build.

[Proven_Paradox]

Plus, it's two freakin' lances. That's amazing, and you know it.

I'll grant you that. The image it invokes is... well... Amazing, as you say.

[Irreverent Fool]

If you sell your soul to Baphomet, you can get the ability to do double damage on a charge. (Again.)

No, really. Abyss-bound Soul feat, Fiendish Codex I. Just... don't die.

There's also the 1st-level paladin spell 'Rhino's Rush' which grants you an additional multiplier on a charge. Swift action to cast. I'm not sure how you could work that in there. You'd need 4 levels of paladin or one to make an item for you.

[marjan]

There's also the 1st-level paladin spell 'Rhino's Rush' which grants you an additional multiplier on a charge. Swift action to cast. I'm not sure how you could work that in there. You'd need 4 levels of paladin or one to make an item for you.

That's also ranger spell. And Ranger 2 gets you TWF so it can be good choice. Problem with Rhino's Rush is that it works on your next charge attack, so you can interpret it to work on just first attack. But it is still useful.

[BRC]

This build would be awsome, unfortunetally it would be useless in about a gajillion situations where charging mounted is not an option. But still....

[marjan]

This build would be awsome, unfortunetally it would be useless in about a gajillion situations where charging mounted is not an option. But still....

As Person Man would say: "Take Strongheart Halfling and riding dog as a mount."
There will be other situations where you can't charge but in those situations you won't be able to charge anyway.

[Irreverent Fool]

This build would be awsome, unfortunetally it would be useless in about a gajillion situations where charging mounted is not an option. But still....

Which is why you make uberdude here a halfling and have him ride a one of his fellow party members into combat. It's completely valid. You merely take a penalty to your ride check and have to make a ride check to allow your 'mount' to attack as well. If bonus feats are an issue, there are always flaws.

To bump his strength up some more, may I suggest orc? +4 str, no LA.

Isn't there some hammer that allows one who possesses it to stack the bonuses of both a belt of giant strength and gauntlets of ogre power?

[Worira]

Which is why you make uberdude here a halfling and have him ride a one of his fellow party members into combat. It's completely valid. You merely take a penalty to your ride check and have to make a ride check to allow your 'mount' to attack as well. If bonus feats are an issue, there are always flaws.

To bump his strength up some more, may I suggest orc? +4 str, no LA.

Isn't there some hammer that allows one who possesses it to stack the bonuses of both a belt of giant strength and gauntlets of ogre power?

Schroedinger's Cavalier?

[Talya]

Schroedinger's Cavalier?

Don't open the fricken' box. Please.

[Swooper]

So it is. My mistake.

I feel obliged (since no-one else has) to congratulate you for managing to double post with a seven minute interval, while also getting ninja'd seven times. My hat off to you, sir!

Isn't it annoying though, dear Barin, when the DM catches your cheese before you pull it off, eh?

[9bit]

HOLY BATSHACKLES..

That's like 1k damage.. 0_0

[Deepblue706]

Isn't it annoying though, dear Barin, when the DM catches your cheese before you pull it off, eh?

Barin is loaded with archery feats. He wouldn't be able to do this, anyway.

[Person_Man]

As Person Man would say: "Take Strongheart Halfling and riding dog as a mount."
There will be other situations where you can't charge but in those situations you won't be able to charge anyway.

Hey, that's my line!!!

But yeah, one of my favorite PCs of all time was a halfling knight named Sir Didymus. Search for it on the board if your interested in the build. A small PC on a medium mount can go pretty much anywhere, starting at level one. At higher levels you should pick up a special mount with a Climb speed, and then eventually a Fly speed. You can do this with Leadership, or a Paladin Mount, or an Animal Companion.

Anywho, a Tarrasque has 858 hp and AC 35. So once you can convincingly deal that much damage on a charge (Pounce + 4-8ish attacks with +25ish To-Hit and 200ish average damage per attack) you can stop, and diversify your feats and class abilities into other things. The easiest method is to be a Cleric or Archivist and just buff yourself to an insane level. But there are a ton of ways, and the optimization boards are littered with charge builds.