qWould this overpower Rogues?

[Frosty]

As a DM, if I let Sneak Attack damag be multiplied as part of a critical hit, would it make Rogues too good? I'm more thinking, "It'll make them viable in combat" than overpowered but I want to hear some opinions. One of my players took Improved Critical with a Rapier as a Rogue.

[Nebo_]

Yes, it would be too powerful. Rogues are already viable in combat.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Rogues are right now about the only balanced class out there. (other than level 20). Don't mess with that.

[Talic]

As a DM, if I let Sneak Attack damag be multiplied as part of a critical hit, would it make Rogues too good? I'm more thinking, "It'll make them viable in combat" than overpowered but I want to hear some opinions. One of my players took Improved Critical with a Rapier as a Rogue.

Overpowered compared to what? Wizards? Probably not. Fighter types? Certainly. Let's assume the wizard has a Str of 13. At Level 20, with his 10d6 sneak attack (19rog/1Fi), he has 2 melee weapons.

Rapier +2, Keen
Scythe +1, Icy Burst

On a roll of 12-20, he'll threaten with weapon 1. his base damage when using SA will be 11d6 + 3, or 41.5 average. Pretty good, considering he'll get it usually when flanking, sneaking, or the like. 83 damage average crit. A bit high, but doable.

Now, weapon 2. Threatens on a roll of 20 only. Base damage with SA will be 2D4 + 11D6 + 3, or 46.5 average. On a crit, it gets
2D4*4 + 10d6*4 + 1D6 +3D10 +12, or 192 damage. Well, not bad considering it's a rarity. But I don't think I'm the first person to always carry a x4 critter for those lovely CDG opportunities.

[Nebo_]

On a roll of 12-20, he'll threaten with weapon 1

You know Keen and Improved Critical don't stack, right?

[Grynning]

Keen and improved critical don't stack, so it would only be a roll of 15-20 to threaten. Also, the scythe is a two-hander, and rogues aren't proficient with it. But yes, multiplying SA on a crit would be a bit OP. Rogues are already one of the better damage dealing (non-casters) in the game, and all they have to do is flank to get buckets o' damage as it is. Two-weapon fight on top of it, take a few SA enhancing feats, and they can one-shot things with startling regularity.
To help out your friend with the rapier, you can point him towards the Telling Blow feat in PHBII. It gives you your SA dice when you crit even if your foe isn't flanked or flat-footed (without multiplying them, of course). That makes the rogue able to fight face-to-face and still roll their 10d6 fairly often.

[Talic]

Errr, yeah, 15-20. Still, point carries.

Oh, and you don't need proficiency with a weapon to CDG with it. :) That said, Heavy pick is usually the weapon of choice for rogue CDG action. +1 Icy Burst Heavy Pick for a rogue with 5d6 sneak does:

4d6 (weapon) + 1d6 (cold) + 3d10 (burst) + 5d6 (sneak) + 4 (enhance) + Str*4, or 55.5 + Str*4. If you have a Str of 13, go for power attack for extra goodness.

Even so, that's, assuming Str 10, a DC 65 Fort save. And that's a 9th level rogue.

With only a MW Heavy Pick, damage is:

4d6 + 5d6 + Str*4, or 31.5 damage with Str 10. That's still a respectable DC 41 Fort save, at level 9.

[Jack Zander]

Keen and improved critical don't stack, so it would only be a roll of 15-20 to threaten. Also, the scythe is a two-hander, and rogues aren't proficient with it. But yes, multiplying SA on a crit would be a bit OP. Rogues are already one of the better damage dealing (non-casters) in the game, and all they have to do is flank to get buckets o' damage as it is. Two-weapon fight on top of it, take a few SA enhancing feats, and they can one-shot things with startling regularity.
To help out your friend with the rapier, you can point him towards the Telling Blow feat in PHBII. It gives you your SA dice when you crit even if your foe isn't flanked or flat-footed (without multiplying them, of course). That makes the rogue able to fight face-to-face and still roll their 10d6 fairly often.

It also gives rogues a reason to use a rapier (aside from Weapon Finese).

I've never really understood why the rapier was so standard for a rogue. The extra crit range doesn't really help them much. The weapon is much better suited to a fighter or barbarian who can afford the loss of an average of 1 damage each attack for a better chance to critical.

[Grynning]

It also gives rogues a reason to use a rapier (aside from Weapon Finese).

I've never really understood why the rapier was so standard for a rogue. The extra crit range doesn't really help them much. The weapon is much better suited to a fighter or barbarian who can afford the loss of an average of 1 damage each attack for a better chance to critical.

One word: Flavor. It fits with the whole "finesse over brute force" theme.
Plus, rogues multi-class really well, so dipping a couple levels in Fighter and 3 levels in Swashbuckler, for instance, give them lots of stabby goodness with a rapier.
Also, rapiers are not good for fighters, cuz you can't 2-hand them to get extra damage from your strength and Power-Attack feats, which any min-maxer knows is the only way to get damage out of a Fighter build without taking caster levels

[Jack Zander]

One word: Flavor. It fits with the whole "finesse over brute force" theme.
Plus, rogues multi-class really well, so dipping a couple levels in Fighter and 3 levels in Swashbuckler, for instance, give them lots of stabby goodness with a rapier.
Also, rapiers are not good for fighters, cuz you can't 2-hand them to get extra damage from your strength and Power-Attack feats, which any min-maxer knows is the only way to get damage out of a Fighter build without taking caster levels

But any flavor should be backed up by mechanics. There is a real world reason why the rapier started to see more use in combat than the longsword in duels. And it's not just because people who fought with rapiers were cool (although certainly true).

[Grynning]

Bleah...see my earlier thread on firearms in games for a pretty thorough discussion of how d20 mechanics do NOT reflect real-life weaponry at all.
I would also argue that it is backed up by mechanics, to an extent. High-dex melee characters benefit more from using a weapon like a rapier than the long sword or two-handers, because you can apply Weapon Finesse to it, which you can't do with most other weapons. It crits more often, so that's another d6 to add to the pile that you roll when you get your precision damage. It just works.

[Cybren]

But any flavor should be backed up by mechanics. There is a real world reason why the rapier started to see more use in combat than the longsword in duels. And it's not just because people who fought with rapiers were cool (although certainly true).

The real world rapier is a more formidable weapon than D&D gives it credit for. But the D&D rapier is probably closer to the smallsword, just as the longsword is probably closer to an arming sword. But the reason dueling weapons became lighter and thinner was because they less frequently encountered armor, became fashion accessories, and were the weapons of frilly nobility who likely never saw a true fight in their lives, and had not but a single lesson in swordplay.

[Animefunkmaster]

I think it depends on the player. With very little effort you can consistently sneak attack on nearly every enemy not immune to criticals (Neraph Charge/ Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Greater TWF). For a rogue who is focused on out fighting the fighter is probably going to be able to do it without any extra help (Might be a different story against a cavalier or the leap attacker/Frenzied Berserker). So if this is the player in question I would say no, stick to the rules. Not to mention there is a feat in complete scoundrel that grants sneak attack damage on a critical, making the rapier wielding rogue a valid option.

Now, if the player is doing something other than combat, and finds himself getting a single sneak attack a round (like a character who uses a heavy crossbow) I would be more inclined to grant a multiplied sneak attack on the off chance of a critical.

In either event, I don't feel it will break the rogue, so much as make the rogue that much better than it already is and possibly unbalancing with other non casters.

[Gorbash]

Errr, yeah, 15-20. Still, point carries.

Oh, and you don't need proficiency with a weapon to CDG with it. :) That said, Heavy pick is usually the weapon of choice for rogue CDG action. +1 Icy Burst Heavy Pick for a rogue with 5d6 sneak does:

4d6 (weapon) + 1d6 (cold) + 3d10 (burst) + 5d6 (sneak) + 4 (enhance) + Str*4, or 55.5 + Str*4. If you have a Str of 13, go for power attack for extra goodness.

Even so, that's, assuming Str 10, a DC 65 Fort save. And that's a 9th level rogue.

With only a MW Heavy Pick, damage is:

4d6 + 5d6 + Str*4, or 31.5 damage with Str 10. That's still a respectable DC 41 Fort save, at level 9.

You're actually saying that rogues are so good because they can do a good CDG...? If someone is in a position to be CDGd it doesn't really matter who will do it, he's dead anyway...

[serow]

If you want to improve Rogues, I'd suggest Penetrating Strike ACF (from Dungeonscape) instead

[Crimson Avenger]

You're actually saying that rogues are so good because they can do a good CDG...? If someone is in a position to be CDGd it doesn't really matter who will do it, he's dead anyway...

Not always, just last week someone on the boards admitted to doing less than 10 points on a CDG, and failing to bypass the helpless casters' Stoneskin.

[Keld Denar]

2 words...Elven Courtblade. So, get this....its a 2handed weapon, right? That means you get full return on PA at 2:1. Its also finessable. So you get dex to hit. Great for a Grey Elven Daring Outlaw build. Great BAB, useful for PAing. Great SA, great for....everything. Pick up PA, Imp Bull Rush, Shocktrooper, and Leap Attack to do acrobatic flips on a graceful leap and promptly cut a person in twain during the suprise round.

The Result?

Bonus points for every second the 2 halves stay together before sliding appart with a satisfying squelch.

[Person_Man]

I'd allow it if everyone else in the group was a caster. Just make them take Telling Blow, and don't let them take it until level 12ish.

[Frosty]

Penetrating Strike? Is that the one that let's you sneak attack for half damage against immune creatures?

[CASTLEMIKE]

Consider the Psychic Rogue variant at Wizard's and letting the Psychic Rogue learn the Dissolving Weapon power like a Psychic Warrior.

There's always Rogue -1, Spell Thief -1, Ninja -1, Scout-1, Psychic Rogue-1, Assassin -1 for a lot of "Sneak Attack" or stacking equivalent with BAB averaging.

[Riffington]

Rogues are right now about the only balanced class out there. (other than level 20). Don't mess with that.

If they're the only one, what are they balanced against?

[Draz74]

If they're the only one, what are they balanced against?

Monsters of the appropriate CR.

And his statement isn't quite true, although in Core Only it's pretty close.

[serow]

Penetrating Strike? Is that the one that let's you sneak attack for half damage against immune creatures?

Yup. It might not be the best ACF around, especially considering that sneak-immunes are usually VERY dangerous to be flanked, especially by a rogue with only a moderate Fort save. But hey, rogue players can't complain that the DM is throwing sneak-immune stuff at them any more.

[Talya]

2 words...Elven Courtblade. So, get this....its a 2handed weapon, right? That means you get full return on PA at 2:1. Its also finessable. So you get dex to hit. Great for a Grey Elven Daring Outlaw build. Great BAB, useful for PAing. Great SA, great for....everything. Pick up PA, Imp Bull Rush, Shocktrooper, and Leap Attack to do acrobatic flips on a graceful leap and promptly cut a person in twain during the suprise round.

One trick pony, though. On a full attack, a dual weilding rogue ends up better...twice the opportunities to apply +10d6 sneak attack damage.

[Talya]

I've never really understood why the rapier was so standard for a rogue. The extra crit range doesn't really help them much. The weapon is much better suited to a fighter or barbarian who can afford the loss of an average of 1 damage each attack for a better chance to critical.

"Loss of damage?" It's not like the rogue is going to use a longsword. The rapier is the highest damage 1h finessable weapon they can easily weild...and since they are going to dual weild to take advantage of bonus damage, their strength is high.

To be sure, a rogue isn't that much different with a pair of daggers than with a rapier and main gauche, the loss of a point here or there is almost irrelevant with that many damage dice at work, but I don't see how you can complain about the rapier, mechanically. It is, marginally, the best 1h finessable weapon that rogues are proficient in.

[Crimson Avenger]

I wouldn't let the rogue get a multiplier on SA, but that's probably because I don't wan't one of my players figuring out how to get hold of a Hunter's Mercy, and using a long bow from invisibility.

3d8 +3x? +30d6. No thank you.

[Keld Denar]

One trick pony, though. On a full attack, a dual weilding rogue ends up better...twice the opportunities to apply +10d6 sneak attack damage.

Hardly. While damage will probably be a few points behind on a full attack, the 2handed courtblade makes up a goodly portion of the 3 extra attacks with power attacks 2:1 return. At around level 12-13, my fighter type had the same BAB as this Daring Outlaw build, and he was regularly PAing for 10 and hitting while under the influence of buffs like GMW, Recitation, and Righteous Wrath. A TWF rogue doesn't take as large of an advantage of the bonuses to hit that full party buffs gives because of the lack of ability to convert them to PA efficiently. He still doesn't come out quite even, but pretty close, besides, whats 10-15 damage when you are doing over 150 a round? Hardly a 1 trick pony. He does have much higher burst damage on a charge than the TWF rogue though.

[Clementx]

If you want to make rogues more damaging, you need to make them more consistent across encounters rather than amping their impressive max damage. It would be a more pleasing change to let them get SA on crits against normally immune foes who otherwise meet the conditions for SA. So that keen rapier rogue has a 40% chance to disarticulate a skeleton he flanks but doesn't have kidneys, dealing his normal damage some of the time. Considering how everyone loves penetrating strike, which requires losing the most inconsequential class feature a rogue has, this wouldn't be a bad addition to the rogue if you were improving the classes towards caster-type power a bit.

[Talya]

Hardly. While damage will probably be a few points behind on a full attack, the 2handed courtblade makes up a goodly portion of the 3 extra attacks with power attacks 2:1 return. At around level 12-13, my fighter type had the same BAB as this Daring Outlaw build, and he was regularly PAing for 10 and hitting while under the influence of buffs like GMW, Recitation, and Righteous Wrath. A TWF rogue doesn't take as large of an advantage of the bonuses to hit that full party buffs gives because of the lack of ability to convert them to PA efficiently. He still doesn't come out quite even, but pretty close, besides, whats 10-15 damage when you are doing over 150 a round? Hardly a 1 trick pony. He does have much higher burst damage on a charge than the TWF rogue though.

Power attack is really inconsequential damage to a rogue. You'd need to take -18 to hit in order to make up enough power attack damage to compensate for the twf rogue on a full attack. Admittedly, your burst damage is higher.

Note a TWF rogue is NOT power attacking.

I do approve of at least 3 levels of swashbuckler with daring outlaw in any rogue build, mind you, probably with 1 level of fighter for the feat. This gives him two extra feats, int-to-damage, gets a full 10d6 sneak attack, and +1 on their BAB.

[Closet_Skeleton]

There is a real world reason why the rapier started to see more use in combat than the longsword in duels.

Fashion, simply fashion. Everyone at the time was using Rapiers so nobody broke the mold. There were more people around willing to teach fencing, but that's fashion again.