Mage Slayer feat

[Craig1f]

What are people's thoughts on the Mage Slayer feat from Complete Arcane? At first I thought it was good, but the target KNOWS it can't cast defensively, and can just take a 5-foot step to cast. So, if you don't have a reach weapon out, it doesn't do a whole lot of good.

What does everyone else think? Has anyone used this feat very effectively? What about Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment?

[FinalJustice]

Have a reach weapon, have fun. I have problems with both 'pierces', as they doesn't make any sense. Auto dispeling stuff every round? Yeah, I know, noncasters are weaker, but THIS? Seriously? A int 3 freakin' orc can dispel a 20th level Wizard automatically without even know what he is doing.

[Idea Man]

This works best if your "mage slayer" is reserving actions to chase the mage if he decides to fall back, basically making you a reactive participant instead of a proactive one. It's the melee version of counterspelling. Not as much fun, but it can be effective.

The best result of this feat is to give it to a large or larger creature with natural reach. A giant with this feat could give the caster a serious problem.

[Frosty]

Just take a few levels of Knight. Suddenly everyone you threaten can no longer take 5-ft steps. Add in Spiked Chains and you basically shut down casters.

[TK-Squared]

Just take a few levels of Knight. Suddenly everyone you threaten can no longer take 5-ft steps. Add in Spiked Chains and you basically shut down casters.

Or, y'know, Tome of Blood's Thicket of Blades stance.

[Craig1f]

Unfortunately, I took Cleave instead of Mageslayer. The session ended with me just having charged a guy who teleported into our ship, and is about to strike down one of the rowmen. The guy is wearing no visibile armor, but clearly has magical armor of some sort. Combat will begin with his turn.

He's probably going to cast a nasty spell at me, and it's going to suck. A full-round attack will suck equally.

I rolled a 40 to-hit (+20 while raged, plus the duskblade cast something on me that increased my STR by 2, plus the bard is playing some song thingy, plus I rolled an 18 on the die, minus some power attacking). The DM described a few magical barriers that I powered-through on the attack.

So clearly, I regret not taking either mage-slayer or improved criticals. This DM allows retraining, so you can train for the expected encounter. I knew we were going up against magic-users.

[Frosty]

Or, y'know, Tome of Blood's Thicket of Blades stance.

If you're gonna give advice, you should at least know the book you're talking about. It's Tome of Battle not tome of blood.

[ChaosDefender24]

Mage Slayer works better if you're attempting a general lockdown; standstill, thicket of blades, and a long reach (spiked chain, Enlarge Person, etc.) all help in this regard.

[Craig1f]

Yeah, I think I'll take this feat back later. I also like improved critical, which I'll trade out when I get a Keen enchantment.

[Indon]

Have a reach weapon, have fun. I have problems with both 'pierces', as they doesn't make any sense. Auto dispeling stuff every round? Yeah, I know, noncasters are weaker, but THIS? Seriously? A int 3 freakin' orc can dispel a 20th level Wizard automatically without even know what he is doing.

From what little I've seen of them, I like the concept. D&D meleers are already basically supernaturally strong already, this sort of Norrisistic stunt (I hit you so hard that I enforce the laws of physics!) seems largely appropriate.

[Craig1f]

Have a reach weapon, have fun. I have problems with both 'pierces', as they doesn't make any sense. Auto dispeling stuff every round? Yeah, I know, noncasters are weaker, but THIS? Seriously? A int 3 freakin' orc can dispel a 20th level Wizard automatically without even know what he is doing.

Well, Pierce Magical Protection only dispels magical enhancements to AC. It's usually other spells that you want to dispel. Mage's AC isn't usually terribly high in the first place, even with mage armor up.

Pierce Magical Concealment confuses me though. It says you ignore the miss chance from magical means, but you still don't know what square they're in right? You can't actually see them now right? It's just that, if you pick the right square, you don't have the miss chance. It's not very clear.

[Craig1f]

Have a reach weapon, have fun. I have problems with both 'pierces', as they doesn't make any sense. Auto dispeling stuff every round? Yeah, I know, noncasters are weaker, but THIS? Seriously? A int 3 freakin' orc can dispel a 20th level Wizard automatically without even know what he is doing.

Well, Pierce Magical Protection only dispels magical enhancements to AC. It's usually other spells that you want to dispel. Mage's AC isn't usually terribly high in the first place, even with mage armor up.

Pierce Magical Concealment confuses me though. It says you ignore the miss chance from magical means, but you still don't know what square they're in right? You can't actually see them now right? It's just that, if you pick the right square, you don't have the miss chance. It's not very clear.

[Frosty]

Basically, you ignore Blur, Displacement, Mirror Image, and other effects similar to those. You act like as if the spell wasn't even there.

[Craig1f]

Basically, you ignore Blur, Displacement, Mirror Image, and other effects similar to those. You act like as if the spell wasn't even there.

I'm pretty sure the feat mentions invisibility as well. Does that mean that I can automatically see invisible creatures? Or does it mean that if I attack into their space, I don't have a 50% miss chance? Or am I wrong about invisible creatures?

[Frosty]

I do not remember seeing anything about invisibility. I can't check at work, but it would be too good to just give See Invisibility this way.

[bignate]

IMHO the feat is only good if you use a spiked chain or the reach weapon/spiked armor combo, if you are a knight, or you have thicket of blades.

but if you have those it is pretty good. just remember that swift spells dont provoke so you still wont have most casters locked down.

[Craig1f]

IMHO the feat is only good if you use a spiked chain or the reach weapon/spiked armor combo, if you are a knight, or you have thicket of blades.

but if you have those it is pretty good. just remember that swift spells dont provoke so you still wont have most casters locked down.

On the other hand, I could finish off my build with improved unarmed attack and improved grapple. That outta prevent them from casting.

[Thrawn183]

My interpretation is that pierce magical protection suddenly made blind-fight worthwhile.

Edit: excuse me, pierce magical concealment.

[Craig1f]

My interpretation is that pierce magical protection suddenly made blind-fight worthwhile.

Edit: excuse me, pierce magical concealment.

Blind-fight is nice. But like most feats, it's way too circumstantial.

[Thinker]

On the other hand, I could finish off my build with improved unarmed attack and improved grapple. That outta prevent them from casting.

Why would that be better? At least with a reach weapon you could also take Improved Trip later and do some battlefield control, too. There are other nifty things you can end up doing with the Pierce Magical Concealment, as Person Man showed.

[Craig1f]

Why would that be better? At least with a reach weapon you could also take Improved Trip later and do some battlefield control, too. There are other nifty things you can end up doing with the Pierce Magical Concealment, as Person Man showed.

My barbarian has INT 10. He won't be able to take improved trip. I'm trying to avoid Shocktrooper cheese. And his strength is 24 out of rage, so he's already doing good damage.

I like the grappling idea, because someone can cast Enlarge Person on me. The duskblade can hit me with some animal spell that boosts my STR another 2. That puts my STR at 32 in rage, which is a +11 enhancement. Plus another 4 for improved grapple, and another 4 for my size bonus.

So, I would have a +19 to my grapple check before I even add my BaB.

Also, my Barbarian's axe is very important to him. It was given to him by his tribe. It's homebrewed to be 19-20/x2, with an enchantment that makes it +0 out of rage, but +2 in rage, for the cost of a +1 enchantment. So, he won't be using any other weapons besides his bow.

[Person_Man]

Any full BAB build should be able to kill any one CR appropriate target in one round, via a Charge with Pounce or a Full Attack. Spellcasters should always be killed first. So it should be rare for you to ever threaten casters in the first place anyway, and Mage Slayer will be of limited use.

Pierce Magical Concealment is wildly useful at higher levels, when its common to face Blur, Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, Displacement, etc. Just find a way to pick up Scent, Nemisis, Blindsense, Tremorsense, or something similar, so that you can locate which square your enemy is in. There are numerous ways to get it via feats, items, or class abilities.

There's also a very useful trick you might not be aware of.

Buy a Ring of Blinking. Activate Ring of Blinking (standard action). Now for the next five rounds, you have 50% Concealment against your enemies, and you strike as an invisible creature, denying enemies their Dex bonus to AC. Worried about your 20% chance of missing? Take Pierce Magical Concealment, and now you ignore it because the feat specifies that you ignore the miss chance from any magical effect. It even lists Invisibility and Ghostform (which makes the caster ethereal) as examples of effects it ignores. A great boon to any build that relies on Precision Damage, but doesn't want to burn though a Wand of Greater Invisibility.

But wait, there's more!!!

Buy a Wand of Flame Blade, or take one level of Pyrokineticist. Your attacks are now all touch attacks. You only miss on a roll of a natural 1. And while Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment lower your Caster Levels, they have no effect on Psionic Manifester Levels. So you can be a Psion or whatnot, able to replicate most magical effects, but with the benefits of the Mage Slayer feats.

Of course, your DM will murder you if you try to play this. But you could always use it as a BBEG against cocky players.

[horseboy]

From what little I've seen of them, I like the concept. D&D meleers are already basically supernaturally strong already, this sort of Norrisistic stunt (I hit you so hard that I enforce the laws of physics!) seems largely appropriate.

I LOL'd so hard I almost choked on my butter toffee sunflower kernels.

[Craig1f]

Any full BAB build should be able to kill any one CR appropriate target in one round, via a Charge with Pounce or a Full Attack.

If you know how much to power attack.

[Karsh]

And while Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment lower your Caster Levels, they have no effect on Psionic Manifester Levels. So you can be a Psion or whatnot, able to replicate most magical effects, but with the benefits of the Mage Slayer feats.

I was going to say that Psionics-Magic Transparency negates this, but, reading the text of that rule... Well damn. Of course, if you rule that it doesn't apply to manifester levels, Mage Slayer and its related feats are ineffective against psionics, but that's still not too huge of a loss.

[Craig1f]

I was going to say that Psionics-Magic Transparency negates this, but, reading the text of that rule... Well damn. Of course, if you rule that it doesn't apply to manifester levels, Mage Slayer and its related feats are ineffective against psionics, but that's still not too huge of a loss.

No Psionics in this campaign. Although, it would not work against divine magic users. We're in a war against Orcs, so there are a lot of Shamans to deal with.

Edit: Although, my understanding is that a Shaman can be a Sorcerer, Cleric, or Druid. But they just refer to all magic users as Shamans. And orcs don't have Wizards.

[Frosty]

Good DMs will introduce terrain and other things so charging doesn't work every single time. It'd be boring to one-shot encounters every time.

[Solo]

If you know how much to power attack.

All of it

[Craig1f]

All of it

Well, as an example, in this last session, I think I described what was going on. We're after this Sorcerer, that has a habit of using enchantments. We're following him on a ship, that has at least a few dominated individuals, but we believe the captain is his ally.

So we convince the ship we're on to intercept them in the night. They start firing cannons at us, but we had a saboteur on board their ship, so their cannons are out. Someone teleported below, and I rush in to see a guy with a huge greatsword and no armor. I don't know if he's a magic user, or if he's a fighter that someone buffed up before sending him into our ship.

What's the most AC an unarmored person could have from magic? Let's say 6 dex, 5 from bracers, 5 from magic, 26? Although, we're level 9, so that would be ridiculous. Let's say 6, 2, and 2, so his AC is 20 maybe?

I can't do a full power attack on that if I want to hit on the 2nd attack.
But I figure I should be PAing for at least 5, if I'm doing 1d12+18 damage, and the attack difficulty is 0.

[Frosty]

You can PA all you want if you're using Shock trooper.