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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Tips on Multiclassing

    As you can obviously tell i'm a new comer here and honestly I only planned on using this site to ask this single question but who knows, I might become more active (I still don't know exactly how this site runs. Like how responsive people are ect.)

    Anyways my main question is does anyone have any tips on Multiclassing? Like what classes fit best with each other?

    Currently i'm playing an Orc Barbarian and a Human Hexblade and I planned on mixing Barbarian and Druid but I don't know...

    Any tips will be great.

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Welcome to the boards. I find that there are a few active posters, and a bunch of folks who post once or twice a day. You don't usually get back and forth conversation, but you will get a bunch of individual responses.

    Anyway the first rule of multiclassing is don't lose caster levels. They're just too good.

    Aside from that it's all about taking only as much of a class as you need and making sure you stop at a good point. Fighter is an easy example. They get a feat at every even level plus at level one. Therefore you're never going to want to end your fighter progression at an odd level. Two levels of fighter is an especially good dip because it gives you two feats. Four levels of fighter will give an additional feat and let you access weapon specialization. Usually three fighter feats is enough for anyone, so few people go past four levels of fighter.

    It's also worthwhile to look at when saves and BAB increase. Monk for instance, gets a point in each save at even levels. It rarely makes sense to take odd levels in monk.

    Finally you should be aware of the order you take classes. Everybody knows that rogue/fighter is better than fighter/rogue because at first level you get more bonus skills. First level also gives max hitpoints, meaning that barbarian/fighter is better than fighter/barbarian. If for whatever reason you were to play a barbarian rogue, it would be up to you to determine if you're better off with 6 extra hit points or 16 extra skill points.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Synergy. Take classes that make use of the same ability scores (eg: wizard/artificerarchivist/mystic theurge only needs Int, unlike wizard/cleric/mystic theurge which needs Int and Wis). Don't take one class which grants an ability which another class requires you not to use (eg: fighter (armor) and wizard (arcane spell failure)).

    Don't give up caster levels. In general, don't take a class whose powerful abilities scale with levels in that class, and then dilute it with other classes. Half fighter, half caster tends to be weaker than full either (though if done well it may be better overall than full fighter... but I digress). There are feats you can get to offset this sort of thing, and PrCs which mix two classes' abilities (eg: Daring Outlaw, Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Disciple). They will generally leave you weaker than a full X but stronger than a half X/halfY.

    Remember that you don't have to have levels in a class just to say that your character shares some common aspect of it. Eg, your single-class barbarian can easily be played as revering nature; he just doesn't get a free pet and the ability to use magic through his attunement with the natural world.
    Last edited by kamikasei; 2008-01-25 at 08:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    I've found that 3.X multiclassing is better for specializing than it is for diversifying. That is, if you want your character to have a very specific role and do it well, multiclassing and prestige classes are the way to go. (I'm currently working on making a paladin/fighter build for the perfect mounted warrior, as an example)

    I'd like to know if anybody has found the arcane trickster, eldritch knight, or similar caster/other classes useful. Mostly because the majority of my 2nd ed characters were fighter/mages or mage/thieves, but there doesn't seem to be a good match in 3rd ed.

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Remember that you don't have to have levels in a class just to say that your character shares some common aspect of it. Eg, your single-class barbarian can easily be played as revering nature; he just doesn't get a free pet and the ability to use magic through his attunement with the natural world.
    Majorly agreed here. Multi-classing only for the sake of representing a particular flavor concept is usually a good way to end up with a really weak character. I had a friend who wanted to play a Rogue with a backstory that she's an ex-Monk who got kicked out of her monestary. Rather than take half her levels in Monk, though, we realized it made the most sense optimization-wise to take only one level of monk to get Improved Unarmed Strike, and then go rogue the rest of the way in order to fill the party role required as best as possible. A rogue that is never unarmed? Yes, please!

    I'd like to know if anybody has found the arcane trickster, eldritch knight, or similar caster/other classes useful. Mostly because the majority of my 2nd ed characters were fighter/mages or mage/thieves, but there doesn't seem to be a good match in 3rd ed.
    Duskblade from PHBII blows all the caster/fighter combination prestige classes out of the water. Full BAB, light armor without spell failure, 6th level spells eventually, and the ability (at 13th level) to cast a touch range spell through their weapon on every hit of a full-attack action. All it really lacks is utility spells.
    Last edited by blue_fenix; 2008-01-24 at 12:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by Felizginato12 View Post
    Currently i'm playing an Orc Barbarian and a Human Hexblade and I planned on mixing Barbarian and Druid but I don't know...
    Barbarian and Druid are both strong classes that generally do quite well without multiclassing. A Barbarian/Druid would most likely be weaker than a straight Barbarian or Druid. The Druid in particular gets wildshape and 3rd levels pells at level 5, taking any other non-Druid levels will delay that.

    If you're looking to add some divine spellcasting to a barbarian, druid isn't a bad choice, although you may have problems with medium and heavy armor made out of metal (dragonskin armor works just as well, and only costs twice as much... actually, pretty darned cheap compared to mithril). Cleric might also be nice, the Strength domain which would give you Enlarge Person. You could also multiclass into Ranger, which offers some divine spellcasting. This would preserve your +1 BAB per level progression, which is important if you have Power Attack.

    As for the Hexblade... I'm not sure there would be much to gain from multiclassing, although your spellcasting doesn't progress fast enough that you really have to worry about losing caster levels. Multiclassing into fighter or ranger would get you more bonus feats. There are several prestige classes that offer full BAB and good spellcasting progression (Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, Knight Phantom), but I'm not sure I could say the class abilities would be any better than sticking with Hexblade.

    If you're able, let us know more specifically what you're trying to do (such as, "I want my hexblade to be able to cast cure spells", or "I want to be able to teleport"), and we can suggest feats/PrCs/abilities that may get you there quicker.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Also, be aware of MAD (Multiple Ability Dependency.) You want to choose classes so you get a maximum benefit from one or two abilities. For example, Paladin/Sorcerer is good because both classes benefit from a high Charisma. Monk/Wizard is not as good, because Monk itself is a MAD-intense base class, and adding in an Intelligence dependency just makes things worse.

    It sounds like what you want to make is called a Gish (caster/melee multiclass hybrid.) Have you considered Tome of Battle, or is that ruled out?

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Barbarian and Druid are both strong classes that generally do quite well without multiclassing. A Barbarian/Druid would most likely be weaker than a straight Barbarian or Druid. The Druid in particular gets wildshape and 3rd levels pells at level 5, taking any other non-Druid levels will delay that.

    If you're looking to add some divine spellcasting to a barbarian, druid isn't a bad choice, although you may have problems with medium and heavy armor made out of metal (dragonskin armor works just as well, and only costs twice as much... actually, pretty darned cheap compared to mithril). Cleric might also be nice, the Strength domain which would give you Enlarge Person. You could also multiclass into Ranger, which offers some divine spellcasting. This would preserve your +1 BAB per level progression, which is important if you have Power Attack.

    As for the Hexblade... I'm not sure there would be much to gain from multiclassing, although your spellcasting doesn't progress fast enough that you really have to worry about losing caster levels. Multiclassing into fighter or ranger would get you more bonus feats. There are several prestige classes that offer full BAB and good spellcasting progression (Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, Knight Phantom), but I'm not sure I could say the class abilities would be any better than sticking with Hexblade.

    If you're able, let us know more specifically what you're trying to do (such as, "I want my hexblade to be able to cast cure spells", or "I want to be able to teleport"), and we can suggest feats/PrCs/abilities that may get you there quicker.

    I do agree with the fact that Hexblades need little multiclassing. Hell the only thing I think I would want to change is the fact that they have little armor proficiency. Also I gotta put most of my levels in the Hexblade to get anywhere in spellcasting.

    But what I was thinking with the barbarian/druid was that I would go farther in the druid class then in the barbarian. I probably would have made a druid instead but I didn't know what I was gonna do with the character in the campaign I am playing.

    Also I might consider putting more levels in the druid class. But then again i'm not sure. Mostly I just want the offensive spells and nature's ally that the druids get (a tank buffed up and charging into battle with an animal companion).

    But now that I think about it Cleric may be better. We already have a cleric in our group but then again he is a healer. So I will probably just go into all of the combat domains so I can buff myself.

    But I don't know. I'm trying to stay in character as well. My barbarian is a social pariah and is socially awkward. Feels claustrophobic in large cities and crowds, lacks manners, makes odd conversations. Basically i'm playing the role of a man who has not bee within civilization for a good 25 years. I would reveal more about his personality but for the sake of staying on topic...

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by blue_fenix View Post
    Duskblade from PHBII blows all the caster/fighter combination prestige classes out of the water. Full BAB, light armor without spell failure, 6th level spells eventually, and the ability (at 13th level) to cast a touch range spell through their weapon on every hit of a full-attack action. All it really lacks is utility spells.
    Actually the Duskblade can cast in medium armor, has only access to 5th level spells, and the description you made for Arcane Channeling is a bit blurry...

    Other than that, it's a great gish class.

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Since you're starting with a barbarian, it should be noted that any of the full BAB classes can multiclass almost seamlessly, since their primary class feature stacks across all classes (as opposed to spellcasting classes, which don't). A barbarian is almost certainly improved by taking 2 or 4 levels of fighter, for instance, and levels of ranger likewise work well.
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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    You want to try to take 3 level dips. Otherwise, your non-primary saves will be horrible.

    The exception is Fighter, which you generally only take a 2 level dip in (occasionally 4).

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Hexblade 3/Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter 4/Prestige Class X

    Mettle and double your Cha to most Saves. Full BAB. Turn Undead to fuel Divine feats (there are a ton of good ones in Complete Divine and Champion).

    Or if your DM doesn't allow variant classes, you can go:

    Hexblade 4/Fighter 2/Blackguard X

    Same basic mechanics. Take the PHBII variant instead of a familiar.

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Hexblade3/Paladin of 2/Blackguard2 would give you x3 your Charisma modifier to saves.


    You won't be good for much else though :p

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Take Sorcerer and Monk levels as well to add your charisma to AC!

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    For the barbarian. I've always been fond of the barbarian/fighter/rouge or scout. Of course, I start with one level in rouge and then proceed towards the fun. Such a build would allow your barbarian to get minor sneak attack bonuses while flanking, grab useful feats, and for the most part maintain a full BAB.

    Might still not fit your concept.

    I would cousel against druid because that animal companion that charges in with you will be far too weak. I think there is a feat that can mitigate that somewhat, but you'll just end up comparing yourself to what a full druid could do, and that will make things sad.

    I would ask what splat books and supplements you have. I could give a few classes that might be helpful, but if you don't have acess to them, it would be useless.

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by weenie View Post
    Actually the Duskblade can cast in medium armor, has only access to 5th level spells, and the description you made for Arcane Channeling is a bit blurry...

    Other than that, it's a great gish class.
    Actually a duskblade is proficient with all armour, but can only cast without ASP in light armour at lvl 1, at later levels you can also cast in medium armour and on even later levels you can also cast in heavy armour.

    What I've always liked is the duskblades ability to cast a a spell as though it was quickened a few times per day

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by Felizginato12 View Post
    Also I might consider putting more levels in the druid class. But then again i'm not sure. Mostly I just want the offensive spells and nature's ally that the druids get (a tank buffed up and charging into battle with an animal companion).
    Well, if you just stick with barbarian, or if you choose a non-druid (or non-ranger) class to multiclass into, you might want to check out the Wild Cohort feat from the WotC website. It'll give you a (weaker version of) an animal companion, regardless of your class. For the other stuff you mention, though, you're gonna have to multiclass.
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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Synergy. Take classes that make use of the same ability scores (eg: wizard/artificer/mystic theurge only needs Int, unlike wizard/cleric/mystic theurge which needs Int and Wis).
    Artificer (from the Eberron Campaign Setting) isn't a divine caster (it uses unique magical abilities called infusions). I suspect you meant Archivist, from Heroes of Horror, which is an INT-focused divine caster.

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by Felizginato12
    Also I might consider putting more levels in the druid class. But then again i'm not sure. Mostly I just want the offensive spells and nature's ally that the druids get (a tank buffed up and charging into battle with an animal companion).
    I would suggest Barbarian 1/Druid 19.

    In the Complete Warrior, you can grab a couple feats to make your Rage last a bit longer or get a couple more daily uses for it.

    You don't mention Wild Shaping, so you might be interested in one of Unearthed Arcana's options:
    One lets you exchange your Druid Armor and Wild Shape for the Monk's AC and Land Speed and the Ranger's Track and Favored Enemy.
    The other lets you exchange your Wild Shape for a slew of short term buff abilities.

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    the Duskblade is ok. A true grish build (melee caster hybrid), can get a 17 or so BAB AND 9th level spells.

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by RukiTanuki View Post
    Artificer (from the Eberron Campaign Setting) isn't a divine caster (it uses unique magical abilities called infusions). I suspect you meant Archivist, from Heroes of Horror, which is an INT-focused divine caster.
    Whoops, yes, quite correct, thank you. What's odd is I wasn't just thinking of archivist but actually thinking archivist, so I'm not sure how it managed to come out as artificer... Weird how the brain does that.

    On the same point see: wizard/beguiler/ultimate magus vs. wizard/sorceror/ultimate magus.

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by Wordmiser View Post
    I would suggest Barbarian 1/Druid 19.

    In the Complete Warrior, you can grab a couple feats to make your Rage last a bit longer or get a couple more daily uses for it.

    You don't mention Wild Shaping, so you might be interested in one of Unearthed Arcana's options:
    One lets you exchange your Druid Armor and Wild Shape for the Monk's AC and Land Speed and the Ranger's Track and Favored Enemy.
    The other lets you exchange your Wild Shape for a slew of short term buff abilities.
    Yeah, that is what I meant when I wanted a mostly druid character now. I would have made a druid at the beginning but yeah I screwed up.

    I might go with Barbarian/Warrior or Barbarian/Rogue (or all three).

    On the hexblades side I did find the replacement class ability for gaining a familiar to be much better so I will go with that.

    But again i'm not too concerned with multiclassing the hexblade right now.

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    I'm playing a barbarian/sorcerer right now. It's not the most powerful combination. I'm hoping that once I get my first level of Rage Mage, it will start to improve. Which leads to my two copper pieces of advice.

    When multiclassing, pick a good prestige class, and try to set up your classes to get it quickly.

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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by Felizginato12 View Post
    Anyways my main question is does anyone have any tips on Multiclassing? Like what classes fit best with each other?
    The short answer is "don't".

    While there are some effective multi-class combinations, it is very easy to end up with a combination that is unable to do either job well. The traditional example is the fighter/wizard; while it sounds good on paper, if you actually play it you'll end up with a character that can neither fight well, nor use magic well, which probably isn't what you intended.

    So the slightly longer answer is "don't, unless you really know what you're doing, and even then it helps to ask around on charbuilding threads first".

    Barbarian/druid isn't such a good combo either; both straight barbarian and straight druid are more effective.
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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    The short answer is "don't".
    Again, though, you can pretty much freely mix the full BAB classes together. Even if you do something unoptimized like take an odd number of fighter levels, it won't ruin your character, like losing caster levels can.
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    Default Re: Tips on Multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by Eorran View Post
    I've found that 3.X multiclassing is better for specializing than it is for diversifying. That is, if you want your character to have a very specific role and do it well, multiclassing and prestige classes are the way to go. (I'm currently working on making a paladin/fighter build for the perfect mounted warrior, as an example)
    There is an exception to this: The Tome of Battle classes (Crusader, Swordsage and Warblade) respond very well to multiclassing. Taking levels in another class before you take levels in your martial adept class allows you to start with higher level maneuvers. This if because of the special rule that Martial Adept classes get for multiclassing: Initiator Level for maneuvers is Martial Adept levels plus half of your non Martial Adept levels.

    But yes, in general multiclassing works better for specialization. Prestige classes take that even a step further.

    I also echo the suggestions regarding caster levels. They give you so many options that you shouldn't give them up.


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