Paladins don't Suck!

[Churcher]

Hey guys, Long time Lurker, first time poster. (Don't Kill me!)

I've got a buddy at a LGS and we've had a bit of a disagreement. He believes that the Paladin class just outright sucks. No amount of tweaking will make them better. I believe otherwise, but my limited knowledge of the vast resources of Dungons and Dragons really hinders my argument. So, I turned to the next best thing...You guys!

Anything is open pretty much. I need pretty much incredible evidence to counter his argument. My knowledge is limited to mainly Living Greyhawk Open Access material, so you may have to explain things so I can get the point. I can use a build to show my evidence, prefering a 28 point buy, but dice rolling works just as well. So, let's win this for all the Lawful Goods out there!

Oh, one other note, this guy sticks with combat mostly, roleplaying means nothing to him. I keep telling him he plays Final Fantasy the Board Game. Wander around and fight that random encounter, skip that dialogue, fight that boss...etc. etc.

[Nebo_]

You want to see a good Paladin 20 build? That might be a bit hard; they're not very good, you see.

That said, Paladins aren't all bad. They are very powerful at around level 1-8 with a charging mount and spirited charge. Generally, they are good for dips, but they stop getting useful class features after the mount (level 5).

[Charles Phipps]

Tell him only Paladins get to wield Holy Avengers.

;-)

[Gig_Complex]

Sorry mate but as Nebo says, after a certain point much like the fighter the Paladin is more or less useless. I am afraid I have to agree with your friend and if I ever get the itch to play a 'Holy Crusader' or similar Paladin theme I just write up a Melee based Cleric much better you see.

[Jack Zander]

Show him a certain level 1 Paladin who can make a DC 25 Knowledge religion check.

[SurlySeraph]

There are many, many paladin-oriented PrCs. Take your pally up to about level 5-8, then switch him into one or two of said PrCs for the rest of the build.

[MandibleBones]

Actually, your friend is wrong, if only for this phrase:

No amount of tweaking will make them better.

I believe, if you browse this board, there's quite a few "Paladin fixes" which all make it better (my preference is for Fax's How-It-Should-Be, which isn't so much a fix as a rebuild, but still).

If you're looking for published works, try the 15-level Paladin PrC available in Unearthed Arcana and the SRD - add it to fighter and cleric, season to taste.

Speaking of PrCs, there's a boatload of "official" ones that all arguably improve the paladin after level 8 when it starts just stacking class features.

The Paladin is never going to be as brokenly awesome as the wizard or CoDzilla, but there's plenty of ways to make it better.

Most of the hatred of Paladins in gaming culture doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the class features and has more to do with the stern prerequisites for keeping those class features (and if following Rule 0 doesn't qualify as tweaking, your DM might not be right for you).

[snoopy13a]

If you want to play a paladin then play a paladin. In the long run, does it really matter if they are overpowered/underpowered/etc? The point is to have fun not create the most powerful character. The exception being if you have fun by creating the most powerful character

[SilentNight]

Take monkey grip and dual-wield Sunblades. That's some pretty nasty damage.

[Wordmiser]

Without the Spell Compendium, there is no reason for a character to take more than four levels in Paladin*.

...Unless you're cheesing the Mount out with Leadership or Halfling Outrider, in which case, there's no reason to take more than five levels in Paladin.

*And even then, you might as well take a PrC.

[Falrin]

Silentnight, Are you serious?

Monkeygrip is the single worst feat in the game.

TWF is clearly underpowered to THW unless you have some kind of bonus damage (rogue?).

The best builds use a nice lance, power attack route and the pally' mount.

As noted there are some 'good' PrC around. (Justicar of Tyr if I recall correct.)

For a start:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=858849
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=75476

Look for adviced PrC's Specific builds.

[Leon]

If you want to play a paladin then play a paladin. In the long run, does it really matter if they are overpowered/underpowered/etc? The point is to have fun not create the most powerful character. The exception being if you have fun by creating the most powerful character

Best Post in thread

Take monkey grip and dual-wield Sunblades. That's some pretty nasty damage.

You dont need monkey grip to duel wield them

[Nebo_]

Take monkey grip and dual-wield Sunblades. That's some pretty nasty damage.

Silentnight, Are you serious?

Monkeygrip is the single worst feat in the game.

No, no, he's right. The damage is actually nasty. That is, it sucks.

[SilentNight]

Silentnight, Are you serious?

Monkeygrip is the single worst feat in the game.

TWF is clearly underpowered to THW unless you have some kind of bonus damage (rogue?).

The best builds use a nice lance, power attack route and the pally' mount.

As noted there are some 'good' PrC around. (Justicar of Tyr if I recall correct.)

For a start:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=858849
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=75476

Look for adviced PrC's Specific builds.

My bad, I'm not completely here right now. Didn't get a lot of sleep last night. All I remember is that I made a decent Paly who used two sunblades. I think the build was Ftr4/Pal12.

[Chronos]

The paladin does actually have some good things going for it, that can be used to good effect.

1: Detect Evil at will. This might not be very significant for your friend's style of play, where "evil" is defined as "someone on the other end of my sword", but for all the rest of us, it can be very handy.

2: The general respect of the populace, if it's known that you're a paladin. Again, more useful in D&D than in Final Fantasy: The Board Game. Don't bother mentioning this one to him.

3: They get a mount. Yes, true, anybody can buy a warhorse. But the paladin gets a mount that won't die when anyone level 4 or higher looks cross-eyed at it. This means that the paladin can use the mounted combat feats, which are arguably the most powerful melee option available in the core rules.

4: Smite Evil. Most things that you're likely to be fighting (especially the ones powerful enough to worry about) are evil, and Smite gives you a hefty damage bonus against them. What's more, it's a static bonus, so it's subject to anything which multiplies damage (like, say, a lance and Spirited Charge).

5: Lay on Hands. It's a lot of healing, all at once, which is the best kind to have available in a fight. Granted, it's not as much as a Heal spell, but it's still pretty good.

6: Some spells. Again, not as much as a cleric, but a heck of a lot more than a fighter or barbarian gets. And some spells are paladin-only, and synergize well with the other class features.

Also remember that multiclassing is an option. With a caster, you hurt yourself badly if you take anything that doesn't advance your spell progression, but a paladin can dip into any full BAB class for good effect (so long as he takes the other class before or after paladin, and not during). A reasonable choice might be two or four levels of fighter, and all the rest in paladin.

[Leon]

Sun Blade

This sword is the size of a bastard sword. However, a sun blade is wielded as if it were a short sword with respect to weight and ease of use. (In other words, the weapon appears to all viewers to be a bastard sword, and deals bastard sword damage, but the wielder feels and reacts as if the weapon were a short sword.) Any individual able to use either a bastard sword or a short sword with proficiency is proficient in the use of a sun blade. Likewise, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in short sword and bastard sword apply equally, but the benefits of those feats do not stack.

No need for Monkey grip - just TWF

[Eldmor]

Also, check with your DM to see if you can exchange the ability Turn Undead for a different Divine feat. That way you get use out of your turn attempts all of the time; not just when undead is on the menu.

[Solo]

I wonder if you can combine the Ubercharger build with a Paladin?

ubercharging on a horse, with lance.

[Voyager_I]

No need for Monkey grip - just TWF

Still, an overall three-step increase in damage die (1 over a Longsword and 2 over a Shortsword) isn't really that exciting after a few levels...

[Behold_the_Void]

I wonder if you can combine the Ubercharger build with a Paladin?

ubercharging on a horse, with lance.

As I recall, paladin is a popular choice for an ubercharger. Especially a small paladin so it can fit in dungeons with a medium-sized mount.

[The Extinguisher]

So basically, Paladins suck compared to magic using classes, or when you power game the heck out of things.

Other than things that are broken, they're pretty good.

[Counterspin]

Yes, they suck compared to the other classes, including that paragon of power fighter. We'll just ignore, what four of the classes in the players handbook, throw on fighter, five, and then he's king of the hill!

[Chronicled]

If damage is all that your friend cares about, a tweaked-out paladin using the Cavalier PrC from CW, and the Divine Might feat (also CW; use a turn undead attempt for Cha bonus to damage), with a lance, on a griffon (which can also attack), while Smiting Evil, can do a LOT of damage on a charge. A LOT (while flying, too). Then add in the Rhino's Rush spell, etc, etc. It'd be pretty easy to make a build that would change your friend's mind.

Still not as good as a CoDzilla, but not much is. There also isn't nearly as much versatility as a full caster gets.

Out of curiosity, what does your friend enjoy playing/think is the strongest class around?

[Miles Invictus]

Paladins are front-loaded with lots of neat abilities, but there's no compelling reason to stay in the class after 5th level or so.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Paladins can be good with a lot of supplemental material.

They make wonderful chargers with things like Leap Attack (feat, CAdv), Rhino's Rush (spell, SC), and either Charging Smite (Alt. Class Feature, PHB2) or a Mount and the Cavalier (PrC, CWar).

Paladins do not suck. They just need some boosts, and fill a rather limited niche. Even in core, they're good damage-dealers as long as you're fighting Evil. On par with Fighters (who have more feats and less damage) and Rangers (who have more skills and less damage), at least.

And of course, there's the challenge and joy of roleplaying someone with an inherent sense of nobility and honor, but that just cramps most peoples' style, and can be done by any class. Paladins are just forced to.

[Tokiko Mima]

I think the best way to see what's wrong with Paladin, and what can be done to fix it is to look at OneWinged4ngel and Seerow's excellent Paladin Rebalance. The core Paladin is a great class for the first five levels, but there's little reason to take it any further. But it's not a completely unfixable thing, as you can see.

[Saph]

Paladins really aren't bad, assuming you've got some access to different books.

Charger paladins, as several people have pointed out, are quite lethal. Use some combination of Power Attack, Rhino's Rush, Shock Trooper, Spirited Charge, a lance, or one of the other charge-boosters out there, and you can do obscene amounts of damage to pretty much anything you can hit. If a mount isn't an option, you can use the PHB II Charging Smite variant.

If you want to play a single-class Paladin, the Battle Blessing feat from Complete Champion also makes them pretty effective self-buffers.

However, I've got the feeling that Living Greyhawk is mostly Core-only, which really nerfs them. A mounted combat build is probably your best bet. Oh, and they're lots of fun for roleplaying purposes, but I'm guessing your friend isn't going to listen to that part, right? :P

- Saph

[Tengu]

And of course, there's the challenge and joy of roleplaying someone with an inherent sense of nobility and honor, but that just cramps most peoples' style, and can be done by any class. Paladins are just forced to.

I don't think if being a spineless anti-hero from a world of black and gray morality (here would be a TV Tropes link but due to the database accident some time ago that trope disappeared) can count as a style. I thought most people grow out of it when they grow up themselves.

[Duke of URL]

5: Lay on Hands. It's a lot of healing, all at once, which is the best kind to have available in a fight. Granted, it's not as much as a Heal spell, but it's still pretty good.

It can also lay some heavy damage on the undead as a touch attack.

[Telonius]

A nice side benefit of Paladin: they are a natural Party Face. Charisma fuels some of their abilities, and Diplomacy is a class skill. Focusing on the social elements takes one more skill off of the Skillmonkey's back. You wouldn't be able to get that with a Fighter, Barbarian, or Ranger.

The flip side of that is that a Paladin is more MAD than the other full-BAB classes. He needs STR and CON just as much as they do, but he actually has to have a decent CHA score. WIS has to be moderately good, too, or no spellcasting. INT and DEX are usually the dump stats.