Ultimate Magus

[Snadgeros]

I just looked over Complete Mage, looking for an interesting prestige class, and lo and behold, I discover the Ultimate Magus!

HOLY HELL! This thing is NUTS!

Am I missing something here, or is this completely and utterly broken?! It's basically a gestalt wizard/sorcerer! What were they thinking here?! Is there any way to meet the prerequisites without multiclassing wizard/sorcerer? What were they thinking when they made this?!

The only possible drawback I can see is that you would need high scores in CHA and INT, with decent scores in CON and DEX. Lots of MAD, but otherwise....wow....

[Dhavaer]

Well, your sorcerer spells will never approach your wizard spells, so it's not quite gestalt, and you'll always be a level behind a full wizard in spells/day. The bonus to caster level and free metamagic is awesome, though.

[Frosty]

There's not much MAD really. Go with a Beguiler and Wizard. both classes use INT for spells.

[Snadgeros]

Wait....I found another weakness. The fact that I'm a human, not a megahypercomputer.

Honestly, you're keeping track of two full casting classes, their spell lists, their spells per day, a prestige class, AND your familiar! This thing is a monstrosity of bookkeeping.

[Draz74]

Yeah ... it's probably no more broken than Mystic Theurge if you stick with Wizard/Sorcerer, but if you go Beguiler/Wizard it's pretty insane. Have your Wizard half specialize and ban Enchantment and Illusion, since you can cover those well with Beguiler casting (in fact, they'll still be your real specialties!) Enjoy the crapload of skill points you get from your first level in Beguiler, which makes you a decent jack-of-all-trades even without spells. Pump INT like no other. Enjoy.

EDIT: The Beguiler also has a simple, static spell list to "keep track of." And you're better off trading in your familiar for some alternate feature. (If your DM will let you, and you don't mind cheese, specialize in Conjuration and take the PHB II alternate feature.)

[Saph]

It's a decent PrC, but not game-breaking by any means.

It has the same weakness as the Mystic Theurge; no matter how you go into it, you're going to be at least a full spell level behind a straight-classed caster. This really hurts, especially around levels 3-5 where you have a ton of 1st-level spells and not much else. Practiced Spellcaster helps, but doesn't solve the problem. The bookkeeping for two full spell lists is also a headache.

That said, it's really flexible and can be a hell of a lot of fun if you like arcane casters.

- Saph

[Wordmiser]

Am I missing something here, or is this completely and utterly broken?! It's basically a gestalt wizard/sorcerer! What were they thinking here?! Is there any way to meet the prerequisites without multiclassing wizard/sorcerer? What were they thinking when they made this?!

I take it that you missed the part about casting two full spell levels behind a straight Wizard of equal level (you can get around this, but even with Practiced Spellcaster--Beguiler, you're a full spell level behind). Using Practiced Spellcaster puts it on par with an early-entrance Mystic Theurge: it's not bad, but there are definitely better options.

And you're better off trading in your familiar for some alternate feature. (If your DM will let you, and you don't mind cheese, specialize in Conjuration and take the PHB II alternate feature.)

The familiar isn't bad, especially if you have access to the Beguiler skill list.

[Illiterate Scribe]

It's a decent PrC, but not game-breaking by any means.
- Saph

Oh no. The spontaneously divining wizard can do horrid things to it.

[Fax Celestis]

Oh no. The spontaneously divining wizard can do horrid things to it.

There is that. What was it, epic spellcasting at level 13?

[The_Snark]

The spontaneously divining wizard was one of the worst offenses against game balance Wizards has released recently, though. Not really fair to count that.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah. It's arguable whether or not you actually get the extra levels but it does allow you to take Ultimate Magnus without multiclassing which is quite nice.

[Snadgeros]

Oh no. The spontaneously divining wizard can do horrid things to it.

I don't know what this is or where it's from, but I can tell it's broken.

Anyone care to enlighten me in the ways of such cheese?

[Gralamin]

I don't know what this is or where it's from, but I can tell it's broken.

Anyone care to enlighten me in the ways of such cheese?

Its quite simple. Its from Complete Champion. Its an alternative class feature that replaces a bonus feat (at level 5, 10, 15 OR 20) with the ability to spontaneously cast all divination spells. You now qualify both as a prepared and spontaneous caster, and can take Ultimate Magus.

[Emperor Tippy]

I don't know what this is or where it's from, but I can tell it's broken.

Anyone care to enlighten me in the ways of such cheese?

Complete Champion Alternate Class Feature for wizards. Give up your 5th level bonus feat and you gain the ability to spontaneously cast any divination spell. Strict RAW they don't even need to be divinations that wizards can normally cast but most DM's require it to be a wizard spell at least (and some require it to be in your spell book).

It's very nice but it is broken. Especially when you use it to qualify for Ultimate Magnus. Because it is a class feature it makes wizard both a spontaneous and preparation caster.

[Saph]

Oh no. The spontaneously divining wizard can do horrid things to it.

Except that that's such an obvious abuse of the rules that it goes beyond "RAW rather than RAI" and well into the realm of "munchkin". I'm not counting it, on the grounds that if your DM is that stupid your game balance is doomed anyway. :P It's obvious that the PrC was intended to work with two spellcasting classes rather than one, and the wording was an oversight.

- Saph

[Fax Celestis]

Except that that's such an obvious abuse of the rules that it goes beyond "RAW rather than RAI" and well into the realm of "munchkin". I'm not counting it, on the grounds that if your DM is that stupid your game balance is doomed anyway. :P It's obvious that the PrC was intended to work with two spellcasting classes rather than one, and the wording was an oversight.

- Saph

Well, one could also take it a step further: the Wizard/Ultimate Magus uses his prepared caster level for the spells he prepares, and his spontaneous caster level for his unprepared divinations.

[shaggz076]

Well, What to look at here.

I think the first thing would be to bring the character from 2 primary stats to one. Doing this is easy, pick a spontaneous casting class that uses Int instead of Cha. (Issue solved with aformentioned Beguiler, Duskblade, etc...Is War Mage Int based?) Now that you have that out of the way the next thing to look at is how you will level your character.

Wizard 3
Spontaneous Caster 2
UM 10

Doing this will make you a 15th level character with 11 levels in both casting classes. Your effective caster level though would be 15th (Spell Power boost) in each. Once you have that out of the way you have to decide which classe you want to boost up as with 5 more levels untill 20th you could bring one class up to 16th leve and have equivilent of 20 levels in that caster class or you could divide the remaining 5 levels between your 2 caster classes. My self I like the idea of Wizard(Abjuration Spec)3/Beguiler2/UM10/Abj Champ5. Combining these 2 prestige classes with your two caster classes grants you some pretty hefty abilities and as stated earlier you can benifit from prohibiting Enchantment and Illusion without really prohibiting them.

As for Practiced Spellcaster, How exactly does it work? If someone could write it in the forum here I would greatly appreciate it.

[Rad]

Actually, the trick here is to pick one of the two spelcasting classes as primary and raise that class spells per day as much as you can. As far as I know this class has to be wizard since the requirements for entering UM are asymmetrical and already require you to be a 3rd level wizard and 1st level something else.
According to this, it's better to fill the 5th level with a wizard level so that the build looks like Wizard 4/Beguiller 1/UM 10.

This would normally give you spells per day as a wizard 11 and beguiller 11 at ECL 15, since three out of the 10 levels of UM increase only the class with the lower caster level and this class is always beguiller. Practiced Spellcaster allows yo to switch two of them to your "main" class: if you apply it to the spontaneous class it will raise your CL to above your wizard CL, so two of those levels go to wizard spells per day. You just got one more full spell level! This costs your 3rd level feat but one more spell level is more than worth it.

In the end (out of my memory, I'm AFB now) you cast as a wizard 13 and Beguiller 9 at ECL 15; which means that you are only one spell level below a straight wizard. Note that Beguiller 9 slots are good for powering most metamagic (all except persistent). This build loses two wizard caster levels. (Including the one spent on Beguiller).

Another good thing is that you manage to lose those two wizard caster levels later on; this means that you are up and running in early game and when you have to lose your second caster level you are a teen-level wizard and, frankly, you are already so much powerful that you don't need that to stay competitive with monsters by then.

Hope this helps

[Snadgeros]

This thread isn't helping my perception of the class as a bookkeeping nightmare.

Also, the beguiler/wizard build sounds fun, to help reduce MAD, but is there a way to do it the other way around? As in, have your spontaneous caster levels be in sorcerer? Is there a prepared caster class that uses CHA for casting?

[Chronos]

As for Practiced Spellcaster, How exactly does it work? If someone could write it in the forum here I would greatly appreciate it.

When you take the feat, you pick a spellcasting class you have. Your caster level in that class is considered to be 4 higher, limited by your total HD. So, for example, a Clr3/Wiz3/Mystic Theurge 10 with Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric would have a caster level of 16 for Cleric spells (but only get spells per day, etc. as a level 13 cleric), and a Caster Level of 13 (and spells per day, etc.) for wizard spells. I believe that you can take it multiple times, applying it to a different class each time.

[shaggz076]

To Chronos

So your just considered 4 levels higher for calculating effect of the spell or do you gain more spells per day and or spells know as well?

[Douglas]

The increase from Practiced Spellcaster (and things like the Ultimate Magus Arcane Spell Power ability) applies to SR penetration, damage dice, duration, etc. - any part of a spell dependent on caster level - but does not count towards spell progression. You do not get additional spells per day or spells known from the feat.

[warmachine]

Can I have this clarified? If one takes the spontaneous divination alternate class feature of Wizard, you can qualify for Ultimate Magus without mutli-classing and, more importantly, progressing spellcasting levels TWICE for most UM levels.

[Fax Celestis]

Can I have this clarified? If one takes the spontaneous divination alternate class feature of Wizard, you can qualify for Ultimate Magus without mutli-classing and, more importantly, progressing spellcasting levels TWICE for most UM levels.

From what I said prior:

"...the Wizard/Ultimate Magus uses his prepared caster level for the spells he prepares [(including divinations he prepares)], and his spontaneous caster level for his unprepared divinations."

[Kurald Galain]

Am I missing something here, or is this completely and utterly broken?!

No, it's not - it's somewhat less powerful than a straight wizard (and more versatile, but it effectively prevents you from getting other prestige classes). Gestalt wizard/sorcerer isn't such a good combo either.

It's significantly less powerful if you don't use the "practiced spellcaster" trick.

UM is better than mystic theurge, though, and becomes cheesy when combined with those (rare) 9th-level-casting prestige classes, such as the Ur-priest.

[warmachine]

From what I said prior:"...the Wizard/Ultimate Magus uses his prepared caster level for the spells he prepares [(including divinations he prepares)], and his spontaneous caster level for his unprepared divinations."

That doesn't clarify the most important part - gaining two spellcaster levels per UM level. For example, A Wizard 5/UM 5 casting spells like a 13th level Wizard.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually, it does. He gains prepared spells per day on those levels in which he gets the "+1 existing prepared class" feature, and he gains increased numbers of spontaneous spells per day on those levels in which he gets the "+1 existing spontaneous class" feature. His caster level never actually stacks, since he can't apply the +prepared to spontaneously-cast spells, nor can he apply the +spontaneous to prepared spells.

[Kurald Galain]

This would normally give you spells per day as a wizard 11 and beguiller 11 at ECL 15, since three out of the 10 levels of UM increase only the class with the lower caster level and this class is always beguiller. Practiced Spellcaster allows yo to switch two of them to your "main" class:

A good way to make this work is to play a Illumian (a rather idiotically fluffed race from Races of Destiny) and take practiced spellcaster at level one. Then go Beguiler 1 / Wizard 3 / Master specialist 1 / Ultimate Magus 9 / Archmage.

A different way to do it is taking the Kobold Rite of Passage.

A cheesy way is to be Wizard 9 (or wizard 3 / master specialist 3 / some other prestige class 3) / Nar Demonbinder 1 / Ultimate Magus 10, or likewise Wizard 9 / Warrior Skald 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Ultimate Magus 9.

If you want to go Gish, there's always the Duskblade 3 / Wizard 3 / Ultimate Magus 10, noting that your Duskblade swordcasting ability works with spells from other classes as well.

[Chronos]

Strictly speaking, if you read the RAW to-the-letter literally, one would gain two levels of wizard spellcasting, since your "spontaneous class" is the same as your "prepared class". However, that way lies Pun-Pun, and Fax's interpretation is much more reasonable.

[Rad]

I don't like Fax's interpretation very much and, honestly, I don't think it comes anywhere from RAW either. UM + spontaneous divinations is just a game bug which, as Chronos said, should not be exploited. It has good company by the way (drowning rules, diplomacy, infinite damage combos etc.).

What I don't like in Fax ruling is that it makes things much more complicated for the sake of not banning a combo. Banning is better than making it suck in my book. Chances are nobody would play a spontaneous diviner/UM under those rules, so the purpose of the ruling is not to make that playable but only to discourage players from making it. If I had to fix the loophole with a house rule I'd just say that your spontaneous and prepared classes need to be two different ones: more elegant and closer to RAI.