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Thread: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
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2008-01-27, 10:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
Which has more to do with you not understanding what was said, than any "babbling" on my part.
In general, I couldn't care less which direction DnD moves with it, but I'm glad that they're finally unifying them. Now AC and Saves work the same. Why would this be taken as some sort of negative change in any sense? It's /minor/, sure, but it's a simplification of the system.
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2008-01-27, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
Yes, from what I have noticed in recent editions of various games, not just DnD or D20, there is a trend moving all offensive actions require a to-hit check against a static value.
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2008-01-28, 12:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-01-28, 07:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
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2008-01-28, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
IIRC from the Basic and 1st editions (which used flat XP awards), the total XP awarded is divided among all party members, not granted to each. A three-person party would get 6,000 XP each, a four-person party would get 4,500 XP each, a five-person party would get 3,600 XP each, and a six-person party would get 3,000 XP each.
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2008-01-28, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
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2008-01-28, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
I was under the distinct impression that in addition to sucking in SWSE, Disarm has always sucked in D&D 3.5. There is no equivalent of Knock-Down, Knockback, or Scorpion's Grapple for Disarm. And many enemies don't use weapons, which renders the tactic (and the feat/class investment) useless for many combats.
Is there a counter argument I'm not aware of? I suppose a Monk could efficiently Disarm on a regular basis by using Stunning Fist. But that's not really really a Disarm, its a secondary effect of being Stunned. And then you'd have to be a Monk, which often has serious problems with damage, AC, MAD, etc.Last edited by Person_Man; 2008-01-28 at 11:59 AM.
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2008-01-28, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
Depends. An urban, swashbuckling campaign where almost all your enemies are NPC humanoids, means that disarm is actually OK.
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2008-01-28, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
Do you mean it's hard to understand, or hard to achieve. Cause it's quite easy to understand.
My opinion is that it is going in the direction of SWSE and I couldn't be more happy. Me and my gang have been playing SWSE since the day it came out and we're loving every minute of it. It looks as though their taking the things that make it better and combining it with DnD (as well as adding new thing) and making a great game. I love the new vs For, Ref, Wll that SAGA used.
I could go on for days, but I'll just say I'm looking more forward to it every time I see a preview.
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2008-01-28, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
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2008-01-28, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
Vader, in the movie, was probably using it on characters a lot lower level than him. He just screams "BBEG you're not supposed to be able to beat yet".
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2008-01-28, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
How many characters does Vader actually disarm in the movies? He force-pulls Han's blaster out of his hand which, as Theli said, was more him being badass than him being a master...uh...disarm-er. He also disarms Luke, but he does so literally, so I'm not sure that counts as a disarm. I can't think of any other times Vader disarms somebody off the top of my head...usually he just kills them and doesn't bother disarming.
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2008-01-28, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
Um, that is what the problem is.
He has to be a master disarm to be a badass in Saga. That is why Saga messed up disarm.
You can't disarm by being badass. You have to focus. In fact, there are no master disarmers in Saga I'd wager because you can't be that good.
You start out being worst than defender.
Attacker: Check.
Defender 10 + check.
You have to have disarm check +11 what they have to be a better disarmer.
Vader fails in Saga versus Han: he had to use Force points and get the max roll to get a even chance. He needs 8 on a d8 for force points.
Than he needs a 20 on disarm check on a d20. Yes, it is that hard for him. Granted, he loses some due to mechanical hand, but that isn't important becaause he did it in the movie.
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2008-01-28, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
Or he was over 10 levels higher than Han at that point in the movie.
There's nothing that says that they have to be on equal footing 100% of the time.001100010010011110100001101101110011
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2008-01-28, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
Wait, you mean there aren't rules for chopping off hands with a lightsaber? Come on, that's easily the single most popular method of disabling an opponent in the series!
It's not like it'd permanently ruin a character, what with lifelike prosthetics being more common than R2 units with friggin' voice synthesizers.
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2008-01-28, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
This strikes me as a problem of association on your part. You associate these (apparently) Saga-like mechanics with Star Wars, so they don't agree with your palate when toted as D&D. However, for many people out there who've never even glimpsed Saga Edition, this is not the case.
You can tell an Amazonian who's never tasted chicken that the anaconda he's eating tastes like chicken, but he'll probably just look at you like you're crazy and say something like, "No, it tastes like anaconda." If you then treated him to a dish of chicken to prove your point, he'd probably conclude that chicken tastes like anaconda rather than vice-versa, and your point would go unproven.
I am one of those never-tasted-Saga-before proverbial Amazonians. So these mechanics strike me only as interesting glimpses of a new system, not Lucas-flavored D&D. Based on that, I'd say that the Star-Wars-y taste you're experiencing is probably part of your own perception and not inherent in the mechanics.Setting: The Chimeric City
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2008-01-28, 11:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
This is all absolutely true. I didn't say otherwise.
I also said, long before 4e was announced, along with many of people who now applaud everything WotC defecates about 4e, that while Saga rules are simple and quaint and probably nice for the star wars setting, almost none of it would work well or feel right in D&D.Last edited by Talya; 2008-01-28 at 11:57 PM.
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2008-01-29, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
Correction: You feel none of it will work well or feel right. SWSE's mechanics being adapted somewhat to the baseline DnD fluff is probably going to /work/, and work awesomely. Can't guarantee it'll feel right, obviously, but the mechanics to SWSE were solid and adaptable, and I've seen a lot of where it seemed to take its inspiration from, as far as I can tell. They all work great.
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2008-01-29, 12:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
Originally Posted by Talya
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2008-01-29, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
...I can't be a case in point if I never said it. In fact, that's ENTIRELY COUNTER to the concept of a case in point, which means you have a living example right in front of you. And I already pointed out one trend I definitely hope doesn't make it to the cutting room floor, which is the move towards an actual default setting, as that would manage to be an enormous step back for it.
Believe me when I say I have no particular love for WotC. They're just another game company that says "Boy HOwdy, we sure do like money!" That 4e seems to be moving in a positive direction from a game design standpoint is utterly unrelated with my base dislike for them. Notwithstanding that I have a longstanding hatred of apologists, though an even longer-standing hatred of rebels-without-a-cause. And just so there's no misconceptions, I /do/ mean the cantankerous curmudgeons who refuse to look at things and patiently wait, and instead loudly crusade about how it must suck because you picked up a negative vibe from sections of the mechanics.
Now, I suggest you lay off the ad-hominem attacks (I don't have to address anything that was just said because they OBVIOUSLY have /never once/ looked at the processes system design, RP, the meta-game, and setting design through a microscope, and are just parroting the greatness of 4e.) Yes, it can't POSSIBLY be that the direction 4e is heading is in fact a good one, despite all initial belief that 4e would be as generally useless as 2.0, 3.0, and 3.5
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2008-01-29, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
I said you were a case in point of defending everything they did, I rather specifically pointed out that I have no idea whether or not you were among those who said WotC would never move toward Saga rule styles for 4e.
Which makes this...
Now, I suggest you lay off the ad-hominem attacks
My problem with your posts on this subject, is you go auto-defensive on every criticism anyone has over some new boneheaded idea they let us preview. And to the vast majority of regular 3.x players, most of what has been released about 4e goes beyond boneheaded. I have stated repeatedly that it's entirely possible that the final product will be an improvement, but the vast majority of what they've shown for changes so far is catering to angsty kiddie-gamers, or "cool kids," trying to break with established and excellently functioning tradition just for the sake of making changes. Change for change sake alone is automatically a bad thing, every time. Don't fix what isn't broken. 3.5 needed some small fixes, not a huge overhaul to the best system ever designed.
While you seem to automatically defend, though, I do not automatically criticize. They've got a couple of great ideas so far, out of the dozen or so they've published. I don't hesitate to praise what looks good. Most of what they've released of 4e looks putrid, however.
Edit: And maybe you aren't doing it to defend WotC, from what you just said. Maybe you hate 3.5 that much, and anything that changes it seems good to you. Would that be more accurate?Last edited by Talya; 2008-01-29 at 01:10 AM.
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2008-01-29, 01:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
This is funny, because as a whole I despise DnD and significantly favor White Wolf and their work. I /could/ play DnD, but the only purpose to doing so is the gamism, as far as I'm concerned, which makes it a rare urge. Any fluff I care to handle is going to be better handled by other systems, most notably Fudge (For small games), homebrew (Small still), and BESM in general, with Weapons of the Gods or Exalted for wuxia awesomeness, and I suppose Mekton Zeta for Space Opera.
...Absurd, as I didn't implicate you in anything at all, or attack you in any way.
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Originally Posted by Talya
My problem with your posts on this subject, is you go auto-defensive on every criticism anyone has over some new boneheaded idea they let us preview. And to the vast majority of regular 3.x players, most of what has been released about 4e goes beyond boneheaded.
I have stated repeatedly that it's entirely possible that the final product will be an improvement,
but the vast majority of what they've shown for changes so far is catering to angsty kiddie-gamers, or "cool kids," trying to break with established and excellently functioning tradition just for the sake of making changes. Change for change sake alone is automatically a bad thing, every time. Don't fix what isn't broken. 3.5 needed some small fixes, not a huge overhaul to the best system ever designed.
While you seem to automatically defend, though, I do not automatically criticize.
I am not an apologist. I have had, in my past, a long laundry list of negative experiences due to that idiotic groupthink in designing games. I have, in my most recent foray in game design, examined, deconstructed, reconstructed, and in other fashions, poked with a stick every last aspect of gaming that I know of, in the effort to build a system that would most properly suit my tastes. I do not accept changes without a careful examination of what they will do. I do not accept game design theory or notes without a careful examination at the conclusions drawn and the evidence or experience used to draw it. I have labelled vast portions of my own work "A stupid idea" due to an incomplete understanding of, at the time, what makes a game good. And there is no work more difficult for a designer to examine then her own. I am not going to suffer some random stranger decide that because she does not like my opinion, I must obviously be the most useless thing imaginable for any form of non-purely-objective design; An Apologist.
They've got a couple of great ideas so far, out of the dozen or so they've published. I don't hesitate to praise what looks good. Most of what they've released of 4e looks putrid, however.Last edited by Rutee; 2008-01-29 at 01:27 AM.
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2008-01-29, 01:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
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2008-01-29, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
I think that more likely there's a Soldier Class, and an Elite array, and this uses both. "Elite Soldier" doesn't seem like a good class name, at least not to me.
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2008-01-29, 01:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
I believe what Elite is was already discussed. It means the pit fiend accounts for 2 characters. It's not part of the class.
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2008-01-29, 01:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-01-29, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
I don't have much experience with the white wolf rules, although their fluff is intolerable. Nevertheless, this makes my second option mentioned above morelikely.
You did not even attempt to address the post's content, but instead wrote it off because I always support WotC, apparently (Which is why I never botherred playing their games after finding better stuff, don'tcha know?)
Prove it. The majority in general, and this is not just WotC, not just DnD, is silent in its approval of a system. A few people squawking on a message board are meaningless compared to the silent majority.
"Hey, dwarves are losing darkvision." - "Uh...why? Lame."
"Gnomes are gone." - "..."
"They're getting rid of subraces." - "But subraces are fun!"
"They're making 'dragonborn' a core race. And tieflings too, but they're no longer fiendspawn." - "Is this even D&D?"
"They've pidgeonholed all classes into design categories that sound like City of Heroes. They aren't called Blaster, Scrapper, Tanker, or Controller, but the concept is the same." - "...WHY?!?"
"You should see what they're doing to the Realms..." - "Noooooo!"
They may be, and I quote, 'caterring to the angsty kiddie gamers' (Hint: Angsty Kiddy Gamers don't /want/ to be awesome. Look at Vampire: The Masquerade), in which case they're doing it wrong, seeing as they seem to be moving more agency and potential to the PCs.
What have you agreed with, exactly?
Reduced reliance on equipment. Despite liking the FR setting, I hate equipment being the bulk of your character. THAT feels video-gamey...like an MMO. Changing that is a step in the right direction.
You're certainly heading there kicking and screaming then.
I am not an apologist.
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2008-01-29, 01:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
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2008-01-29, 01:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-01-29, 02:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4E: Pit Fiend stat block
Very interesting, I like the setup overall. From everything I’ve seen the simplified skill setup will be a godsend. The classifications system does give me pause, immortal humanoid just a new name for outsider?
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