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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

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    Default Beguiller feats.

    Last night, I started a solo game of D&D online using a Lawful Evil Halfling Beguiller. The problem was that I'd initially intended him to be played as part of a party, so I gave him Point Blank Shot as alevel 1 feat with the intention of getting Precise Shot at level 3, so I wasn't sure about which feat I was going to use to replace Precise Shot (the character is currently on level 3, and I gave him Spell Focus (Enchantment) due to the character prefering to manipulate people rather then get involved in physical violence, but I'm not sure where to go from there. I'm planning on taking Eyes of the Mage at level 12 (if I survive that long), and I want some feats which would go well with his personality (his a treasure hunter who I loosly based of Albert Wesker from the Residant Evil games*). I thought I'd ask because this is the first character that I've really used and I don't know what the best course of action is regarding his feats.



    *His typically emotionless while only caring about things and people who he can use to fulfill his own plans.
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    Rachel Lorelei's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Taking archery feats is a mistake; your archery will always be bad. What you want are Spell Focuses. You should also look into Unsettling Enchantment (Complete Mage) after Spell Focus: Enchantment, especially combined with Distract Assailant (Complete Adventurer) for your 3rd level Advanced Learning spell. You can use your first-level slots on Distract Assailant as swift actions; best-case scenario is they fail the save and count as flatfooted so you get Surprise Casting, but even if they make the save they still get the -2 AB/AC from Unsettling Enchantment.

    At level 6 you should take a level of Mindbender (Complete Arcane), but no more than one; you get telepathy, so you can take Mindsight (from Lords of Madness), which is basically Blindsight vs. things with minds. .
    Last edited by Rachel Lorelei; 2008-01-27 at 04:08 AM.

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    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Thanks for telling me. The problem with taking a level of Mindbender is that it would require me taking skill points in skills which I can't really afford to take (I wanted to keep a few skilles maxed out while putting the rest of the points into some other skills which I need). Also, what exactly are the prequisites for Distract Assailant? I couldn't find the feat on http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl or http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...ndex-Feats.pdf .
    Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2008-01-27 at 04:53 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    I second the Spell Focus + Unsettling Enchantment line. Also, given the prevalence of SOL spells on the Beguiler list, Improved Initiative will be very useful.

    Mindbender is nice, but is also a matter of taste (then again, you're already non-good) and there are other prestige classes available (also, Beguiler/20 is a solid build).

    My personal favorite is Arcane Disciple, which allows you to add a single cleric domain to your spell list (travel is nice, as is summoning) but requires you have a decent wisdom score.
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    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Thanks for telling me. My Wis score is only 10 (my stats after racial adjustments are 10 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 10 Wis and 14 Cha). I was thinking about sticking with Beguiller 20 (assuming I manage to survive my first mission) due to not wanting to miss out on the key skills and skill points.
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Oh yeah...

    You said you were going solo. There is one problem with that, and it is that beguilers essentially have no way whatsoever of dealing with something that is immune to mind-affecting spells.

    Arcane Disciple is one way around that. Of course, so is charming some meat shield into following you <g>. A third way is dipping into Warlock for Eldritch Blast ability (also, they have an invocation that gives you +6 on bluff) And there's the distinct possibility of going Beguiler / Wizard / Ultimate Magus...
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    That is a good point about Warlocks. My main plan was to try to sneak around everything that I can't deal with. So I know for future reference, what would you say the best class for solo adventures is?
    Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2008-01-27 at 05:54 AM.
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac View Post
    Thanks for telling me. The problem with taking a level of Mindbender is that it would require me taking skill points in skills which I can't really afford to take (I wanted to keep a few skilles maxed out while putting the rest of the points into some other skills which I need). Also, what exactly are the prequisites for Distract Assailant? I couldn't find the feat on http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl or http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...ndex-Feats.pdf .
    Like RL actually said in her post, it's not a feat, it's a *spell*, from the Complete Adventurer.

    You should have lots and lots of skill points, being 6+INT with INT as your primary stat; how'd you spend them?

    ETA: if you have allies, Charmed or otherwise, Silent Image and Glitterdust work fine agianst mind-immune enemies. Silent Image requires you to be thoughtful and creative; remember that there's no save unless they interact with the image.

    If you're gonna be sneaking a lot, take Darkstalker. It's in Lords of Madness. Lets you sneak through blindsense and such, rather than being auto-found.
    Last edited by Reel On, Love; 2008-01-27 at 06:16 AM.

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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac View Post
    That is a good point about Warlocks. My main plan was to try to sneak around everything that I can't deal with. So I know for future reference, what would you say the best class for solo adventures is?
    The druid, hands down.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The druid, hands down.
    Eh. It's powerful in a whole lot of areas, but the flavor... druids are hard to motivate and hard to make solo adventures for. Solo adventures tend to (and should) cater to the character type. A Beguiler can have awesome city adventures, full of social encounters and intrigue. He can disable and dazzle his enemies with his spells... in fact, if a solo Beguiler is getting into anything resembling a stand-up fight, something's gone seriously wrong.

    Oh, that reminds me: make sure to raise Sleight of Hand, because of the Conceal Spellcasting use of the skill (in Races of Stone and the Rules Compendium), which is also a skill trick in the Complete Scoundrel (because the authors apparently didn't know about the regular use of the skill). Being able to cast without people knowing you're doing it is amazing.

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    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    I'm sorry about getting confused regarding Distract Assailant. Also, thanks for the solo play advce and the Darkstalker advice (that could come in handy later on). Here's my character sheet: http://rustmonster.net/sheet/?view=503 (I'll appologise in advance in case you can't see it for some reason). That's one reason why I picked Beguiller (I was thinking of creating an LA 0 variant Gnoll Druid using the Shapeshifting variant as a back-up character, though).
    Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2008-01-27 at 06:26 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    You don't have to say thanks and sorry in every single post

    I agree that beguilers also make excellent solo characters; it depends on what kind of adventures you want. Actually, the fact that beguilers have an obvious weakness or two (which druids pretty much don't) can make for a more interesting campaign.

    Since you're a follower of Wee Jas, it might be fun to boost your Wis by +3 at some point (level 8 stat boost and a +2 item, perhaps) and use Arcane Disciple to obtain the death domain, for Animate Dead.

    If you're taking warlock seriously, there's a Mystic Theurge - type prestige class that lets you combine warlock with any arcane caster (such as beguiler). While less powerful than plain beguiler/20, this can be an interesting path to take, especially as there's some fun invocations around.

    I'd say your build is good, but perhaps your skill list could be more focused. I would suggest maxing out on concentration and stealth skills (although you do get invisibility at level 4). Open lock is probably less useful since you actually get knock before your OL is high enough to be practical. Also, I would suggest not taking UMD at all at early levels, since the skill is useless until you can reliably hit DC 20.
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    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Okay. I wanted to be able to handle some things witout magic due to not wanting to run out of MPs, and I thought it would be a good dea to use UMD to use healing items once I can afford/find any (if I'm not being threatened, I'll be able to take 10 when using magical devices if I remember the rules correctly). I'll probably not bother much more with Open Lock (I wanted to keep UMD maxed so that I'm not putting tons of points into it later). I'll consider your Arcande Deciple advice, though (being able to animate corpses would be useful in some scenarios).
    Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2008-01-27 at 07:32 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #14
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac View Post
    (if I'm not being threatened, I'll be able to take 10 when using magical devices if I remember the rules correctly).
    That is incorrect. You cannot take ten on UMD period, except if you're a warlock of 4th level or higher.

    Oh yeah, and warlocks also get animate dead
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2008-01-27 at 07:58 AM.
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    That is incorrect. You cannot take ten on UMD period, except if you're a warlock of 4th level or higher.

    Oh yeah, and warlocks also get animate dead
    And charm monster (at sixth level) at will, as an invocation.
    you might want to concider taking some levels in (earth) sujuna, getting some ability to blow things up, heal, and other things like that.

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    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Thanks for explaining about UMD. Why the earth type rather then any other type, Charlie? Also, don't they use Cha for spellcasting rather then Int? Just checking over the Warlock, I would lose a lot of versatility in exchange for not getting that much until at least level 4, so I'm probably better of not bothering with that class (I'd sooner stick with 1 class while getting it's best abilities sooner rather then having weaker abilities from 2 classes).
    Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2008-01-27 at 02:31 PM.
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac View Post
    Thanks for explaining about UMD. Why the earth type rather then any other type, Charlie? Also, don't they use Cha for spellcasting rather then Int? Just checking over the Warlock, I would lose a lot of versatility in exchange for not getting that much until at least level 4, so I'm probably better of not bothering with that class (I'd sooner stick with 1 class while getting it's best abilities sooner rather then having weaker abilities from 2 classes).
    Because in order to specialize (which you must) you have to bar an element, and air has almost all the spells that you have as a beguiler except for the teleport spells, and you also get some damage spells, some healing spells, and can still cast in light armor w/o worrying (that's the sujuna). you also can eventually take levels in mystic threuge, maybe geomancer. the only problems are that you don't get many skills, but you get 4 per level. They also use chr, the 2nd best stat you have, rather than wis. you also get some summoning spells for elementals.

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    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    If I'm honest, I would sooner avoid having an MT-like build due to how I'd be gaining spells at a slow rate for both classes initially rather then getting a lot of spells for 1 class, which would probably result in me being weaker overall (incidentally, how long would it take to prepare spells for both classes? I know Beguillers need to meditate for 15 minutes, but I don't know about Shugenjas). Also, I want to avoid losing skill points and class skills.

    Edit: I was just looking up Arcane Deciple, and it wouldn't work due to requiring ranks in Knowledge (Religion), which is a cross-class skill and I need to be the same alignment as the diety (my character is LE, Wee Jas is LN). I also decided that I have no interest in multi-classing due to not wanting to miss out on Beguiller class features. I also decided to use UMD, and hopefully a couple of Unlimited Wands for covering some weaknesses later on.
    Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2008-01-28 at 11:07 AM.
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    If you can go Gnome or Whispergnome instead of Halfling, you could do:
    Beguiler 6/Mindbender or Luckspinner 1/Beguiler 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Beguiler X

    This would allow you to actually do some damage with shadowmagic. You'd also be able to basically hide in plain sight. Shadowcraft mage is a great PrC.

    You could take Power Word Pain as your first advanced learning, so you can actually kill some things as well.

    In any event, if you went this route, you'd want Spell Focus(Illusions), Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, and Earth Spell.
    Last edited by Craig1f; 2008-01-28 at 11:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Thanks for the advice (I still want to avoid multi-classing due to not wanting to lise skills, though).
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac View Post
    Thanks for the advice (I still want to avoid multi-classing due to not wanting to lise skills, though).
    Do you consider PrCs multiclassing?

    I'll admit, Beguiler has a pretty impressive level 20 capstone ability. Ignoring SR is pretty uber. However, consider this.

    Shadowcraft Mage:
    1) Shadow Cloak (25-45% miss chance. Hide in Plain Sight)
    2) Automatic Silent Spell for illusions
    3) Shadowcraft Magic (Opens up Evocation and Summoning spells)
    4) Automatic Extend Spell for illusions
    5) Shadow Magic strength increases by 20%

    (I am trying to remember the names of these abilities from memory. I might have the names wrong)

    Edit: Changed "... pretty impressive level 1 capstone ..." to "... pretty impressive level 20 capstone ..."
    Last edited by Craig1f; 2008-01-28 at 02:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    I don't really class PrCs as multi-classing, but I would have to decide that the bonuses from the PrC were better then the bonuses from my standard class before I took any levels in it (Shadowcraft Mage sounds really good from what you've said).
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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac View Post
    I don't really class PrCs as multi-classing, but I would have to decide that the bonuses from the PrC were better then the bonuses from my standard class before I took any levels in it (Shadowcraft Mage sounds really good from what you've said).
    Interested? Let me fill you in a little bit more.

    The level 3 ability allows you to convert any of the "image" spells to a "shadow conjuration/evocation" spell, where the strength of the spell if the target disbelieves is equal to the spell level.

    The requirements for the class are that you're a gnome, you have spell focus illusion, and you have at least one shadow spell of 4th level or higher. This is why you take mindbender or luckspinner or something, so your level 7 advanced learning spell is level 4 instead of 3. I recommend Shadow Well.

    For your level 2 or 3 advanced learning spell, Power Word Pain is from either Races of Dragons, Draconomicon, or Dragon Magic. I forget which.

    So now, you can convert silent/minor/major/programmable image to a shadow evocation/summoning spell. But wait, there's more!

    If you take heighten spell, you can just heighten silent image to whatever spell level you want. That way, you don't have to invest in programmable image as an advanced learning spell, AND you can control the power of the spell. But wait, there's more!

    By taking Earth Sense and Earth Spell from Races of Stone, you boost your spell level an level whenever you use heighten spell .. allowing you to use shadow conjuration and evocation on spells of the same level, rather than having to use it on spells of one level lower. Plus, for every spell level that you heighten a spell, the caster level goes up by 1.

    So, if you boost minor image to level 5, for example, you're now at +4 caster level. But wait, there's more!

    The level 5 capstone level for shadowcraft mage boosts shadow spells by 20%. So if you cast a level 8 spell, and they pass their will save to disbelieve, the spell is at 100% power anyway!

    You won't be as powerful as an evoker, or a summoner, but now you can actually do real damage. And it's just really cool.

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Thanks for the additional information (I've already started the game as a Halfling, though). I'll keep that in mind in case I ever decide to play as a Gnome.
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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac View Post
    Thanks for the additional information (I've already started the game as a Halfling, though). I'll keep that in mind in case I ever decide to play as a Gnome.
    Your history could be your PC is a halfling orphan who was "raised" by evil Gnomes which might let your DM qualify you for taking the PRC in some games.

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    It just me, or is a powerful Beguiler presence swooping in?

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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Since a lot of your special abilities do better and/or involve denial of dex bonus through feinting, Improved feint is good. Tumbling feint would be benificial. I found the Fey Heritage tree lends itself nicely to the class.

    If you are allowed to multi-class then take 2 levels Beguiler and then cross over to Wizard for 3 levels and than Ultimate Magus.

    The cunning evasion is a great feat too if you are facing a lot of magic users with reflex for half spells.

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    well, they're so full of guile...... and win.
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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Would feinting work well with a ranged weapon? (I don't know the rules regarding its use that well). Also, I really don't think the Ultimate Magus sounds like it would be worthwhile (ignoring the fact that I said that I really want to avoid loosing skill points and class skills as well as the fact that I'd end up needing to try to get to level 6 to take for first level of UM with a load of low level spells rather then normal spell pregression from 1 class, I really don't see the class' bonuses (or the additional loss of caster levels) to be worth the effort, especially since I would need to put ranks into Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) at the expense of other skills).
    Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2008-01-30 at 03:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Beguiller feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac View Post
    Would feinting work well with a ranged weapon? (I don't know the rules regarding its use that well). Also, I really don't think the Ultimate Magus sounds like it would be worthwhile (ignoring the fact that I said that I really want to avoid loosing skill points and class skills as well as the fact that I'd end up needing to try to get to level 6 to take for first level of UM with a load of low level spells rather then normal spell pregression from 1 class, I really don't see the class' bonuses (or the additional loss of caster levels) to be worth the effort, especially since I would need to put ranks into Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) at the expense of other skills).
    No, Feinting specifies a melee attack. That prevents it from triggering most of your sneak-spell abilities as well- I think casting a touch attack spell would qualify. Probably not worth it.

    Most of the Ultimate Magus builds I've seen focus more on the Wizard side, using the Beguiler spell slots mostly to metamagic the Wizard spells or to cover for banning Enchantment and Illusion as a specialist. For them, the extra skills and Int synergy is just a bonus. Since you're wanting skills as a focus of your character, it's not for you. The PrCs I can think of that are closest to advancing both skills and spells are the 'rogue theurge' ones like Arcane Trickster and Unseen Seer.. you'd probably be best off just taking Beguiler straight to however high the game runs or looking into one of the more traditional spellcasting PrCs if you reach a point where you're mostly satisfied with the skills you have.

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