Beguiler?

[Yehomer]

I just finished reading the beguiler section in PHII, and all I've got to say is WTF? They took a sorcerer, gave him D6 HD, tons of cool abilities, a wide selection of spells and tons of class skills. Did I miss something, or is this class insanely unbalanced?!

[Tempest Fennac]

I think the fact that just about all of their spells get Will saves is potentially a huge weakpoint, as is the fact that they mainly use Illusion and Enchantments (I'm new to D&D, and I'm playing one in a solo game, but I can't tell you if it's overpowered yet).

[Fax Celestis]

Take a look again and try to figure out a way for a beguiler to be effective against an opponent who is immune to mind-affecting spells and/or various status effects. The beguiler's sneaky, sure, but they're not very good in the killin' things department. They do, however, make spectacular thieves and infiltrators.

[Duke of URL]

Take a look again and try to figure out a way for a beguiler to be effective against an opponent who is immune to mind-affecting spells and/or various status effects.

Well, UMD is a class skill...

[Yehomer]

He can charm\ dominate other stuff to kill them.
Well, he might be slightly balanced in a kick in the door campaign, but in a campaign like I play, where most encounters are against humanoids, and diplomacy is a factor, he would be a god :S

[Draz74]

I just finished reading the beguiler section in PHII, and all I've got to say is WTF? They took a sorcerer, gave him D6 HD, tons of cool abilities, a wide selection of spells and tons of class skills. Did I miss something, or is this class insanely unbalanced?!

Well, yes, it is insanely unbalanced ... but not necessarily more than the Sorcerer itself.

The limited spell selection (a lot of spells, but many of them very similar to each other) means there's tons of tricks available to the Sorcerer that the Beguiler just can't duplicate.

The Sorcerer, Psion, and Beguiler are the three possible candidates for the title of "7th-most overpowered class," after Wizard, Artificer, Druid, Cleric, Erudite, and Archivist.

[Person_Man]

The Beguiler is a great class. It fills the Skill Monkey and Toolbox spellcaster niches very well, without being overpowered, and without the need for strained mult-classing or PrC choices.

But it has several down sides:

Poor BAB
Weak Fort and Ref Saves
Limited Spell Selection
Very little support in books outside of PHBII
Virtually all of the offensive spells require a Will Save
Virtually all of the offensive spells are Mind Affecting (undead, contructs, etc are immune)

A Rogue has the protection of Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, and can be a force in melee or ranged combat. A Beguiler cannot.

A Sorcerer can use Polymorph, Greater Mighty Wallop, Celerity, Black Tentacles, etc. A Beguiler cannot.

So in sum, a Beguiler is a fun and balanced class that is very good at what it does. But it doesn't really break anything, and in many ways its the model for what all of the other full casters in D&D should be.

[kamikasei]

The DMG suggests no homebrewed class should be better at fighting than the fighter, at sneaking than the rogue, etc. But this is not a perfect guide because many of the core classes aren't brilliantly balanced. Many consider the sorcerer to be weaker than it should be because Wizards were, basically, afraid that spontaneous casting would break the game and overcompensated. So, the Beguiler (along with the Warmage and Dread Necromancer) have better HD, armour, weapons etc. They also have more limited spell lists; more flexible perhaps, but they are forever denied most of the best options available to sorcerers.

Of course, the Beguiler has a heck of a lot going for it. Of the classes of its type, it's certainly the best, with the best spells and the advantage of Int-synergy with its skillmonkey role. ...But full and open casting is ridiculously powerful, and having your spell list restricted justifies a fair bit of beefing up in other class features.

Well, he might be slightly balanced in a kick in the door campaign, but in a campaign like I play, where most encounters are against humanoids, and diplomacy is a factor, he would be a god :S

They can't balance every class against every game. Yours is different in many ways from the assumptions made by the designers. It sounds like an Archivist would be half-useless in your game, but that doesn't make that a weak class.

[Craig1f]

I think Vertigo Field is a fort save.

But yeah, beguilers are not powerful if they're ambushed. Only if they control the fight.

[Yehomer]

I guess you may be right... I haven't been really playing the classis D&D campaign...
BTW, In what books do those Archivist, Articifer and Dread necromancer appear?

[Frosty]

Beguilers are only broken if they are 1) a Gnome and 2) multiclass into Shadowcraft mage.

Otherwise, they are one of the most balanced caster classes there is. All other casters should follow its example. WoTC experimented with something similar in the Warmage, and the Beguiler is the Enchantment/Illusion version of a Warmage. The fact that Warmages suck and Beguilers don't is due to the fact that WoTC actually learned from their mistakes of the Warmage.

[kamikasei]

I guess you may be right... I haven't been really playing the classis D&D campaign...
BTW, In what books do those Archivist, Articifer and Dread necromancer appear?

Artificer is from the Eberron Campaign Setting and is a ridiculously flexible crafter. Archivist and Dread Necro are both from Heroes of Horror. Dread Necromancer is essentially a Beguiler-style caster for necromancy instead of enchantment/illusion (but without the skills). Archivist is a divine Wizard, pretty much.

[Aquillion]

Artificer is from the Eberron Campaign Setting and is a ridiculously flexible crafter.

Artificers get the ability to mimick any spell from any class for crafting two levels before that class would normally get access to it. They also get metamagic spell trigger, which lets them burn charges from a wand to metamagic the effect... this is probably one of the most broken abilities in the entire game, since it lets them just go completely nova with absurdly high-leveled metamagicked effects every single round at the cost of a few gold worth of charges.

So, to summarize, they do everything that any other spellcasting class does, at lower levels than that class does, and better than that class does. They can even take apart other magical items to help pay the xp cost for crafting things. They also get sorta-spellcasting 6-level-progression infusions which they can use in armor (including a few nice things like Wall of Force), 3/4ths BAB, D8 hd, 4 skill points per level with a decent list of skills... oh, and they can search/disarm high-DC / magical traps like a rogue. You get the idea.

(To be fair, though, they're setting-specific, and they're supposed to have a huge impact on the setting, so it makes sense that they'd be pretty overwhelming.)

[RTGoodman]

Also, the Archivist class was in the Heroes of Horror excerpt on the Wizards website. Here it is.

[valadil]

I haven't actually played a beguiler, but I'm starting to really like them. I've tried going for arcane trickster and I've seen other players go for similar characters that never quite work out. I think this does a wonderful job of filling the niche of a rogue who uses magic to aid in his thievery. A regular sorcerer just doesn't have the spell selection to be able to have a tool box of utility spells. Still, I'd have to see one of these in action to decide if the mostly will saved based offense is viable/worthless/broken.

[Frosty]

You have to invest a lot of feats to raise your spell DCs to make it good. How good really depends on the types of enemies you fight. If you constantly come up against high Will save enemies with SR, then it'll be harder. Mindless enemies make you cry. Most humanoid enemies you can eat for lunch.

[Craig1f]

You have to invest a lot of feats to raise your spell DCs to make it good. How good really depends on the types of enemies you fight. If you constantly come up against high Will save enemies with SR, then it'll be harder. Mindless enemies make you cry. Most humanoid enemies you can eat for lunch.

Mindless enemies are still subject to illusions, as long as they aren't constructs. In any event, beguilers have some boost spells like Haste that they can use to help the party.

[sonofzeal]

I see the Beguiler and Dread Necromancers more as 20 level PrCs than as base classes. They're tremendously effective in a very narrow scope, which is generally the hallmark of PrCs over base classes.

As to balance, I DMed one campaign with both a Beguiler and a Dread Necromancer, and my experience was that they were solidly the two most powerful characters. The Beguiler's ability to deal ludicrous amounts of non-lethal damage, and the Dread Necromancer's ability to heal himself all over the place (Tomb Tainted Soul), nearly threw off the game. Nearly.

All in all, I think there are more broken classes out there (ToB, and CoDzillas, are good examples), but they are still noticeably above par. My advice is to treat this sort of class (Artificer falls into this category too) as PrCs - they should be available but require special training, DM permission, and some kind of sacrifice. Artificers and Beguilers might be required to tithe some of their earnings to the guild in exchange for continued access to necessary training resources; Dread Necromancers might be required to take the Necropolitan template at level 5 before they can unlock further abilities.

[kamikasei]

As to balance, I DMed one campaign with both a Beguiler and a Dread Necromancer, and my experience was that they were solidly the two most powerful characters. The Beguiler's ability to deal ludicrous amounts of non-lethal damage, and the Dread Necromancer's ability to heal himself all over the place (Tomb Tainted Soul), nearly threw off the game. Nearly.

What other classes were in the party? If they were the only full casters it's natural they'd seem exceptionally powerful.

[Frosty]

Then Wizards should be PRCs as well, since they're 10 times more powerful than a Dread Necromancer or Beguiler. And eriously, you thought Beguielrs can do tons of non-lethal damage? On average they do less because all of their damage spells are save negates, not reflex half.

[Sucrose]

I see the Beguiler and Dread Necromancers more as 20 level PrCs than as base classes. They're tremendously effective in a very narrow scope, which is generally the hallmark of PrCs over base classes.

As to balance, I DMed one campaign with both a Beguiler and a Dread Necromancer, and my experience was that they were solidly the two most powerful characters. The Beguiler's ability to deal ludicrous amounts of non-lethal damage, and the Dread Necromancer's ability to heal himself all over the place (Tomb Tainted Soul), nearly threw off the game. Nearly.

All in all, I think there are more broken classes out there (ToB, and CoDzillas, are good examples), but they are still noticeably above par. My advice is to treat this sort of class (Artificer falls into this category too) as PrCs - they should be available but require special training, DM permission, and some kind of sacrifice. Artificers and Beguilers might be required to tithe some of their earnings to the guild in exchange for continued access to necessary training resources; Dread Necromancers might be required to take the Necropolitan template at level 5 before they can unlock further abilities.

I object to your toss of Tome of Battle characters into the "broken" group. They are simply more well-rounded than standard fighters. They have less potential for game-breaking damage, and in exchange, they have ways to make up for poor saves, and mobility. That's about all that there is to it.

They also happen to be more interesting to play in a strict, OOC tactical sense.

[AKA_Bait]

So in sum, a Beguiler is a fun and balanced class that is very good at what it does. But it doesn't really break anything, and in many ways its the model for what all of the other full casters in D&D should be.

I cannot agree more.

I see the Beguiler and Dread Necromancers more as 20 level PrCs than as base classes. They're tremendously effective in a very narrow scope, which is generally the hallmark of PrCs over base classes.

Indeed. Beguilers are what a rogue sorcerer always wanted to be back in 3.0 but without breaking the system. I see that it was a problem for balance in your game, but I'm not sure if that is a result of the class, a disparity in ability of players or the setting of the game itself.

[Craig1f]

Beguilers don't break the game until level 20. That is the most awesome Capstone ability ever.

[Irreverent Fool]

Sonofzeal: ToB is NOT BROKEN. Please don't say such things. What do you want us to do, play single-class fighters?

I played a Beguiler (and later PrC'd into Mindbender, boy that was dumb) and against anything that wasn't immune to will saves I was like unto a tiny god. While it was quite fun plying my skills against things with brains, against undead I could do just about nothing. It's a fine class. Very good at ONE THING.

BTW, you can pick up those shadow spells that mimic other spells with their ability to learn a new spell of the illusion or enchantment school that doesn't otherwise appear on their list.

[sonofzeal]

What other classes were in the party? If they were the only full casters it's natural they'd seem exceptionally powerful.

The rest of the party included a Cleric, a Sorcerer, and a Dragon Shaman. So no, they weren't the only full casters. They did happen to be played by the strongest players of the group, which helped, but I still see those classes as a little overpowered within their niche.

I object to your toss of Tome of Battle characters into the "broken" group. They are simply more well-rounded than standard fighters. They have less potential for game-breaking damage, and in exchange, they have ways to make up for poor saves, and mobility. That's about all that there is to it.

They also happen to be more interesting to play in a strict, OOC tactical sense.

I happen to like ToB. But I have played Warblades and Crusaders, and have seen Swordsages played, and every single time they've always been able to beat anything of their CR singlehandedly, and have outshone the rest of the party. My lvl 20 Warblade (Well, Warblade17/PsiWar2/EternalBlade1) took out a VoP Druid with ease in a duel. The Druid then went and prepared better spells and tactics, and managed to last another two turns before losing horribly. So yes, I think ToB is broken. I also agree they're more fun to play. We're getting off topic though.

[Craig1f]

The rest of the party included a Cleric, a Sorcerer, and a Dragon Shaman. So no, they weren't the only full casters. They did happen to be played by the strongest players of the group, which helped, but I still see those classes as a little overpowered within their niche.

Illusionists are very powerful if they're played by experienced and creative players. Unexperienced or uncreative players will have a hard time with them though.

I'd argue that, played by a sufficiently creative, experienced, and fast-thinking player, illusionists are the most powerful in the game, as long as the DM doesn't require you to kill everything in order to win.

[Dullyanna]

@Sonofzeal:VOP druid's aren't exactly a benchmark for balance, nor are they even particularly powerful. They just represent the best one can make with VOP (Which is widely considered to be a crappy feat). If the TOB user had beaten an experienced player using a regular druid, then that would be different.

[Frosty]

Duels also dont prove much. DnD is not PvP. As for ToB, yes they have nice and cool stuff. However being able to do 2 full-attacks a round just isn't the same as "I create a new pocket dimension" or "My tsunami ENDS the battle, and the opposing army is dead."

[AKA_Bait]

Illusionists are very powerful if they're played by experienced and creative players. Unexperienced or uncreative players will have a hard time with them though.

I'd argue that, played by a sufficiently creative, experienced, and fast-thinking player, illusionists are the most powerful in the game, as long as the DM doesn't require you to kill everything in order to win.

You know, I've actually found quite the opposite to be true. Once you get to the level where charaters have permanent detect magic (or worse true seeing) through a class feature, making it permanent with the spell or some other means, Illusionists are nigh useless.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Beguiler is the most fun class I've ever played. In my opinion, it almost makes the rogue obsolete, and given the choice between the two, I'll almost always take beguiler.

The nice thing about the beguiler is that you can be sneaky, or be really brazen. Illusion is the single most rewarding school of magic for creative people. The only thing that could make playing a beguiler is against a boring / vindictive / uncreative DM.