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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    Basically, is a prestige class that progresses spellcasting a spellcasting class?

    Generally speaking, people let bards take a single level dip in Sublime chord and take further levels in another PRC that gives "+1 level of existing spellcasting class." What about dual spell casting progression classes, can they benefit from a single level dip and then taking a prestige class that gives +1 level of existing spellcasting class? Say for example a mystic theurge gets a level of mind bender, can he use the +1 level of existing spellcasting class to level up his spellcasting as a mystic theurge instead of either wizard or cleric?

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    From the Mystic Theurge

    Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

    If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.
    From the Arcane Trickster:

    Spells per Day: When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
    From the Loremaster:

    Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of loremaster to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.
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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    No. A spellcasting class is a class that specifically grants spells, not one that advances another's spellcasting progression. However, effects dependent upon caster levels and/or levels in a spellcasting class count the prestige classes that grant +1 level as they are raising the effective spellcasting level of the base class.

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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    I'm not completely sure, but I would rule that a Mystic Theurge doesn't count as a spellcasting class. It doesn't give any spellcasting on its own, just grants advancement in pre-existing base classes. There are no spells per day/spells known in its own right.

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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    When you advance in a +1 spellcasting PrC, you don't gain spellcasting level of that PrC, you gain effective levels in the primary spellcasting class that you had before you went into the PrC (wizard, cleric, bard, ect). If the PrC has a spell progression, making it a spellcasting class, then you can use your +1 spellcasting to increase your caster level in that class (ie: Knight of the Chalice or Temple Raider of Olmidara).

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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by cupkeyk View Post
    Generally speaking, people let bards take a single level dip in Sublime chord and take further levels in another PRC that gives "+1 level of existing spellcasting class."
    To clarify this point, which I think is the major source of confusion: Sublime Chord actually grants its own spellcasting progression. It isn't itself a "+1 to existing" PrC. So you take Bard until you can go in to SC, then take some other PrC to up your SC spellcasting, but you are not actually doing anything to your Bard casting except using it to qualify for SC.

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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    Sublime Chord is unique, in that it really does a bit of both.

    It does not increase +1 level of existing bardic spellcasting, as you stated, it starts its own progression from spell level 5 and continues up to spell level 9.

    However, it needs to be pointed out that bardic casting and sublime chord casting still stack together for caster level.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    However, it needs to be pointed out that bardic casting and sublime chord casting still stack together for caster level.
    Whoops, well caught. Okay, so those Bard levels are accomplishing something after all

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    Just to clairify, your asking if you have two casting classes and take a PrC that says you get a +1 to your spell casting class, would it affect both?

    If I have that right I would tell you no, it says in the text of most PrCs that you either add it to the class that allowed you to qualify for the PrC or if you had multiple classes that would have qualified you you would choose which one to add to at each level of the PrC. The only difference to this rule that I have found was the Ultimate Magus but it specifies when you either add to the lowest level caster class or add to both your spontaneous and prepared classes.

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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    Actually, I've wondered the same things. See my thread on Jack the Indecisive for my analysis of the issue. Basically, "common sense" tells us you can't do that, but I've never seen any sort of rule or text that would suggest otherwise, and the most rational definitions I've come up with allow it.

    However, be aware that my build does have a serious flaw, in that I'm advancing Mystic Theurge beyond what the table allows, and for some reason the epic progression of MT is totally nerfed. There may be a way around this with Bard/Druid shenanigans, but I haven't fully explored that yet.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Actually, I've wondered the same things. See my thread on Jack the Indecisive for my analysis of the issue. Basically, "common sense" tells us you can't do that, but I've never seen any sort of rule or text that would suggest otherwise, and the most rational definitions I've come up with allow it.
    Classes like Wizard and Cleric have a class feature, "Spells", which grants spellcasting. Classes like Mystic Theurge have a class feature, "Spells per Day", which advances the "Spells" feature of another class or classes. That seems like a better definition to work from than the one you use in the linked thread.

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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    However, it needs to be pointed out that bardic casting and sublime chord casting still stack together for caster level.
    Actually, Sublime Chord and all other arcane caster levels stack to determine your Sublime Chord caster level.

    Wizard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso +9.

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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    Let's look at the converse if it were true. Say somebody gets three levels of Wizard, three of Cleric, then two of Mystic Theurge. (You need two levels to get the required 3rd-level divination spell). The player then says they're going to take eight levels of Loremaster. The player tells the DM that with each level of Loremaster, they're planning on choosing "Mystic Theurge" as the existing spellcasting class, so that they increase both Cleric and Wizard spells per day with each level.

    Our DM has a fit of insanity and allows it. At level 16, the player has a spell progression as large as a plain old MT, and equal hit points. They'd have 16 more skill points. They'd have all of the nifty Loremaster abilities. The downside? Well, sense Motive is not a class skill for Loremaster, and it is for Mystic Theurge. And the player has to take three metamagic/item creation feats that they'd probably take anyway, and blow a feat on Skill Focus Knowledge (which they could eventually get back with a Loremaster Secret). That's it. Those are the only drawbacks.

    EDIT: I'm deliberately taking examples just from core. Loremaster's not the most powerful PrC out there, and I'm sure there are ways to get to MT faster than seventh level. This is just to demonstrate that W3/C3/MT2/Lore8 is significantly more powerful than W3/C3/MT10, if we allow the levels to stack like that.
    Last edited by Telonius; 2008-01-29 at 10:06 AM.

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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroNumerous View Post
    Actually, Sublime Chord and all other arcane caster levels stack to determine your Sublime Chord caster level.

    Wizard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso +9.
    I need to look that up, but I think it says you have to choose which arcane class to stack it with. A bard5,wizard5, sublime chord 10 would have a CL15 in one casting class, and a CL5 in the other.
    Last edited by Talya; 2008-01-29 at 10:37 AM.
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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    I have a humble warlock and I'm thinking of multiclassing to Mindbender.
    What will "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean in my case?
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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    I need to look that up, but I think it says you have to choose which arcane class to stack it with. A bard5,wizard5, sublime chord 10 would have a CL15 in one casting class, and a CL5 in the other.
    Nope. Total sum of all arcane casting classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    EDIT: I'm deliberately taking examples just from core. Loremaster's not the most powerful PrC out there, and I'm sure there are ways to get to MT faster than seventh level. This is just to demonstrate that W3/C3/MT2/Lore8 is significantly more powerful than W3/C3/MT10, if we allow the levels to stack like that.
    Using Loremaster to advance your Mystic Theurge is illegal, because Mystic Theurge just advances your pre-existing spellcasting and doesn't add it's own. Whereas using Loremaster to advance Sublime Chord is entirely legal because Sublime Chord has it's own spellcasting abilities that are separate from your base class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazde Bahatur View Post
    I have a humble warlock and I'm thinking of multiclassing to Mindbender.
    What will "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean in my case?
    I believe Warlocks advance by Eldritch Blast damage and Invocations, but not in Eldritch Blast Shapes. I could be wrong, as I've never made a Warlock.
    Last edited by ZeroNumerous; 2008-01-29 at 10:39 AM.

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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroNumerous View Post
    Using Loremaster to advance your Mystic Theurge is illegal, because Mystic Theurge just advances your pre-existing spellcasting and doesn't add it's own. Whereas using Loremaster to advance Sublime Chord is entirely legal because Sublime Chord has it's own spellcasting abilities that are separate from your base class.
    I know, I'm just showing the results of what would happen if that weren't true: an obviously more powerful combination, with no drawbacks. In other words, stinky cheese. Sublime Chord is a separate special case.

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    Default Re: What does "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    I know, I'm just showing the results of what would happen if that weren't true: an obviously more powerful combination, with no drawbacks. In other words, stinky cheese. Sublime Chord is a separate special case.
    Oh, I got confused by the presentation then.

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