Dual bow wielder?

[kemmotar]

Ok, first of all i don't know whether there are any special rules applying to dual bow wielding concerning TWF so if there are any please enlighten me

Anyway, i saw this demon in MM4 or 5 some time ago and i was now looking at two characters. One of my own, a multiheaded changeling and another from on of the PbPs i'm going for, ie a thri kreen wielding 4 one handed weapons...Now all of these came together in a very weird mix to give birth in my mind to the multiheaded thri kreen that uses two composite greatbows...

Now, just a note, if you aren't aware of the multiheaded template it's in the savage species. It's a +2 LA template for medium creature giving it a max of 2 heads total...now the good part. It gives you free superior two weapon fighting, combat reflexes and improved initiative...

Now superior two weapon fighting is a very nice feat since it makes the off hand into a main hand so that there are no penalties for wielding two weapons and you use your normal BAB for attacks with the second main hand...the reason for this is that each head controls a hand so you take no penalties...

Now, i have never come to think of TWF in connection with bows since most races have two hands and bows are two handed weapons...anyway...the LA then goes up to +4...now the only problem is that it's superior two weapon fighting and not multiweapon...Now i don't know if there's a rule about it but i think there may be a small loophole. In essence the thrikreen is wielding two weapons...two two handed weapons nevertheless two weapons...does that sound too crazy?

Anyway, I thought it would be nice as a rogue with improved rapid shot and maxed UMD to use a scroll or wand with divine power(i don't remember what book it's from so i don't know what level it is, can you use a wand or a scroll with it?) with CL20 to make the thri kreen's BAB 20, thus giving 4 attacks with each bow, add haste and belt of battle and you have 18 attacks with no penalty whatsoever(except for the decreasing BAB in each attack) or 8 attacks with imroved rapid shot for truly no penalties...Add the woodland strider feat from races of the wild along with an insane hide score and you got step 1)impr. rapid shot with both bows(standard action)
step 2)activate belt of battle and burn two charges for an extra standard action(swift action)
step 3)impr rapid shot with both bows standard action and rehide with a -20 from woodland sniper+ you can now take a move action
step 4) take a move action to move away from your previous position
step 5) round ends, people go to where you used to be
step 6) rinse and repeat...

alternatively, use a full attack option and then the belt of battle to take another move action by spending one charge.

Well...i don't really know if this woudl work, it's a pretty big leap saying that TWF applies to wielding two two handed weapons with 4 arms...anyway, thoughts? Builds that can help imrpove?

Also, would the above battle plan work or am i missing something?

[tyckspoon]

Flaws: Divine Power grants BAB based on your character level, not the spell's caster level. With +4 LA, the highest you'll reach by way of the spell is +16. Which still gets you to four attacks, so yay there. The benefit of that is that you can have your wand (4th level spell) made at the lowest possible caster level instead of level 20, which saves you a lot of money.

Rapid Shot requires a full attack to use. Improved Rapid Shot doesn't change that. Manyshot is a standard action, but it is incompatible with TWFing and you would need another feat (Greater Manyshot, Expanded Psionics Handbook/SRD) in order to apply sneak attack to all of the arrows.

I think your core approach of 'two bows, lots of attacks' works, but Sniping probably doesn't work like you think it does. After you shoot somebody once, you're not hidden. You can try and make the sniping Hide check then, but that takes up your standard and move action so you only got one shot. Or you can go for a full attack and keep shooting them, in which case you are no longer hidden, aren't sneak attacking, and (excepting the use of something like the Belt of Battle to get an extra move action) have forfeited your opportunity to snipe. Going with full BAB classes and just trying to get lots of damage on all of your arrows might generate better results, or perhaps a Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter build would work. Belt of Battle for the extra move action, move at least ten feet to activate Skirmish, Full Attack Rapid Shot to unload 12 arrows on something.

[RTGoodman]

As sort of a silly idea, you might could go with an Insectile Multiheaded Raptoran. I'm not sure of the LA of the templates (I think they're both from Savage Species). As far as I know, Insectile gives you either an extra set of arms or just 6 arms total, and the multiheaded does as you said above. Raptorans, of course, can use their footbows as a martial weapon, and can fly.

If my math is right, you'd be able to use either 3 or 4 bows while flying (depending on the number of extra arms Insectile gives you), which is just ridiculous.

[kemmotar]

Insectile gives you an extra pair of arms, there was a discussion about an insectile thi kreen. Core wise it should happen since templates apply to an humanoid or monstrous humanoid, however I think it was argued that you can't apply the insectile template to what is essentially a half insect...I think they may simply have applied the insectile template to a human to make the thri kreen as a race with a few mods...

Anyway, the sniping part it's as you said, also my miss about the rapid shot...anyway, the whole thing revolves around the belt of battle to succeed...Use a full attack action and then an extra move action to hide again, or else it would be just a standard action which doesn't even give one attack with each bow...also, there is a slightly better build, scout rogue with the feat that makes scout and rogue levels stack with each other for SA and skirmish and then take the impr. skirmish and greater manyshot(if it applies precision bonuses to all arrows) and use the chronocharm of the horizon walker(swift action, move up to your speed, cost:900gp) and then full attack with both bows for SA+skrimsih+2d6 on each arrow for damage...

[playswithfire]

However many bows you end with, make sure you give them the splitting enhancement.

[Baxbart]

Er.... Well, I suppose it is technically possible to use two bows as per the D&D rules...

But if you stop and think about the practicalities of drawing two bows, its just plain stupid... not to mention clumsy (I don't care how many arms you've got, two big bows are going to get in the way of one another - especially if you think about having to draw back across the body for any reasonable amount of power).

Personally if a player came to me with this suggestion I'd hit them over the head with a rulebook and tell them to come back with a sensible, reasonable idea. I'm not against multi-armed PC races, but bows (let alone composite greatbows!) are just insanely impractical.

[Mephisto]

Er.... Well, I suppose it is technically possible to use two bows as per the D&D rules...

But if you stop and think about the practicalities of drawing two bows, its just plain stupid... not to mention clumsy (I don't care how many arms you've got, two big bows are going to get in the way of one another - especially if you think about having to draw back across the body for any reasonable amount of power).

I wouldn't allow it. Crossbows, yes. Longbows, no way.

[Snadgeros]

How would you.....but....why? This is just stupid. the ONLY possible way a two-armed creatue could feasibly wield two bows would be to hold both of them in one hand, slightly apart, and the strings in the other. It would be VERY awkward and VERY inaccurate. You're better off just taking manyshot/rapid shot.

[Gogo525]

Wow. Never looked at it before. You could do it though. Great idea for BBEG body guard. An insectile raptoran that is(6 arms+2 feet= 3 bows). But probably not Great bows. The demon is called the Bow Demon (MM4) and yes it does use 2 bows efficiently.

[Ellisthion]

I'd rule "no way, you fool".
Muscles don't work like that. It would be impossible to use two bows effectively, no matter how many arms you have.

[Indon]

Er.... Well, I suppose it is technically possible to use two bows as per the D&D rules...

But if you stop and think about the practicalities of drawing two bows, its just plain stupid... not to mention clumsy (I don't care how many arms you've got, two big bows are going to get in the way of one another - especially if you think about having to draw back across the body for any reasonable amount of power).

Personally if a player came to me with this suggestion I'd hit them over the head with a rulebook and tell them to come back with a sensible, reasonable idea. I'm not against multi-armed PC races, but bows (let alone composite greatbows!) are just insanely impractical.

I'd allow it, at worst knocking up the strength requirement a bit. Though, I'd want to know if they're holding the bows horizontally or vertically, in order to better clarify the mental image.

[kemmotar]

Okay...maybe i went a bit overboard with the greatbow part...however, as it was mentioned by both me and assassin shadow there is a precedent for efficient use fo two bows and that is the bow demon from MM4(thanks, i couldn't remember exactly where i had seen it)...

And insectile adds 2 arms, so an insectile raptoran would have 4 arms and 2 feet=3 bows, not 6 arms, 2 feet and 3 bows...although the end result was correct

Anyway, i don't see why not be able to use 2 bows, even 3 with the insectile raptoran..okay muscles don't work that way...how do you know the musculature of a 4 armed inscet creature? Besides, there's nothing wrong with it since a the aforesaid demon can use them and he has pretty much humanlike physiology...

But would the superior TWF work with them? I don't know if that's a "loophole" of sorts in the rule that can be used?what do the resident rule lawyers have to say?

Anyway, i know it's not very optimized, but it would be fun...also one reason i used greatbows was mainly to get str in(so having more strength is obviously needed and you can work it in with the greatbow to increase damage) even 24 str isn't that difficult at higher levels...start with 18 in str +2 from being a thri kreen and add a +4 belt of giant str, or maybe start with 16str and by the time you're ECL 12(+4 LA) level you can do it easilly...start with 18 dex and with the +4 dex and some items, well withing WBL you can get dex up to par too...Now i doubt that using two greatbows would need more than 24 str...I mean 8 is normal if not slightly high for commoners and the like, 24 is superhuman...and ofc not going for ECL 20 where you can get it up to 34 str just with a manual+6 and belt +6(well withing WBL again) so i see no reason of not being able to use two bows due to a strength requirement...

EDIT: here's a picture of the bow demon for mental image
He has 21 str(nothing to brag about) and wields 2 composite longbows...

[playswithfire]

And insectile adds 2 arms, so an insectile raptoran would have 4 arms and 2 feet=3 bows, not 6 arms, 2 feet and 3 bows...although the end result was correct

I think the footbow still requires you to use at least one hand to pull it back. Certainly looks like it in some of the illustrations.

[kemmotar]

Indeed that is correct, description says you hold it with your feet and drawing it with one or two hands...mehh

Nevertheless i got a new idea for an epic monster:
bow wielding hecatoncheiras...alone it blot out the sun with it's arrows for your epic party to fight under the shade...

[Hawriel]

No Using to bows at the same time is just stupid. It requires a person to draw the bow across their body. Even if you have more than one paire of arms its not possible.

[kemmotar]

Hmmm...forgot to link the pic from my edit 3 posts above:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...040815b&page=4

and thus, problem solved on being able to actually draw the bows...

[Newtkeeper]

Well, I'd rule you could do it. There is a precedent*, after all. However, I would make it a *seperate* feat tree from two/multiweapon fighting. So I'd say yes, you can- but if you want to do it *well*, pay up!

Per RAW, however (though I realize no sane DM follows RAW on all counts), I see no reason it would not be allowed, and no reason not to use standard two-weapon fighting rules and feats.


*http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...040815b&page=4

[RTGoodman]

Yeah, just checked out Races of the Wild - the footbow does require one or two hands to draw it, but if you use two hands, you get 1.5x Str bonus to damage just like a two-handed melee weapon.

Of course, if you want to be ridiculous, the footbow is an exotic weapon. Just use an winged thri-kreen (there's a winged template somewhere, right?) - he can use two hands for the footbow (spending a feat on EWP for it), and still use his other hands for another bow (or two other bows if you're allowed to have an insectile winged thri-kreen).

Also, pick up the Aptitude enhancement for the footbow so your feats for your other bows (composite longbows or otherwise) apply to it as well.


As far as two-weapon (or multi-weapon) fighting goes, they don't distinguish between melee and ranged weapons, so RAW I think you'd just take the normal penalties associated with fighting with multiple weapons. Take Two-Weapon Fighting or Multi-Weapon Fighting should alleviate some of the problems.

EDIT: Ninja'd while looking up the RAWness of multi-bow fighting!

[Ellisthion]

Anyway, i don't see why not be able to use 2 bows, even 3 with the insectile raptoran..okay muscles don't work that way...how do you know the musculature of a 4 armed inscet creature? Besides, there's nothing wrong with it since a the aforesaid demon can use them and he has pretty much humanlike physiology...

Because to fire even one bow effectively you use nearly every major muscle in your body. It's not just arms, you use EVERYTHING. Back muscles are particularly important, and I haven't seen even a D&D monster with multiple sets of back muscles.

It'd be easier to get a specially modified bow with several rests for arrows, and use your multiple arms each to hold an arrow on the bow, for something resembling a better multishot. That might work, but it'd still be wierd.