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2008-01-31, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
Just a quick rules question, because it can't be this simple:
Scenario: A defending character is using a reach weapon of some kind (longspear, ranseur, spiked chain, etc) and has the 'Evasive Reflexes' Feat. They are being charged and their attacking opponent has to enter, then leave their threatened area. This triggers an Attack of Opportunity for the defending character.
Evasive Reflexes allows the defender to take a 5 foot step instead of an Attack of Opportunity. The defending character take this step to move away and perpendicular to the attacking character, and out of range of their melee attack.
Conclusion: Unless the defender is up against a wall and cannot move out of the way, they cannot be successfully charged.
So my question is: Does this work,or is there an AoO rule I missed? It seems like an awfully easy way to beat a lot of uber-charger builds. Granted, it would just mean that Charger builds would just need to use reach weapons as well, but I see an awful large amount of them with two-handed sword specific feats.
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2008-01-31, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon means that you can sometimes avoid a Charge. You generally also have to take Hold the Line to step all the way out of the enemy's reach though.
You should also mix in Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit, so that you can step away after an enemy attacks, thus thwarting most full attack actions.
It's a potent combo. But consider that you're giving up several attacks, and that many enemies have more then 5 ft of reach, and that many enemies don't rely on melee attacks, or can avoid provoking AoO via a variety of means.Last edited by Person_Man; 2008-01-31 at 05:34 PM.
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2008-01-31, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
Potential problem - most of the time when you're being charged, a 5-foot-step won't take you out of the path of the charge. I would rule that unless you can step into a square they can't reach (unlikely if they're charging straight for you), they still get their attack off.
Now, a Meteor Hammer and Combat Reflexes might work for that. Or any old reach weapon with "Stand Still". Or take the "Martial Study" feat and pick "Counter Charge". Or ready "Dimension Door". Or ready a lance and DARE them to charge you.
You're not really short on options here.
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2008-01-31, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
Well, there's always 3 squares directly behind the defender (relative to the attacker) that are beyond the normal 5 foot melee range. A person declaring a charge has to pick an endpoint, and can't follow you until you stop moving. Unless those are somehow occupied or blocked, taking a 5 foot step out of melee range shouldn't be that hard?
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2008-01-31, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
Or, for an easier way to stop a charge: Take improved trip and any reach weapon that gives a bonus to trip. (I, personally, would not use a spiked-chain, since it's over-used IMHO, and I just think the funky hooked spear looks, or the scythe, looks cooler.
Anyways, let them charge at you, with their -2 AC, you attack with your bonuses to trip and Viola, you got an angry fella flat on his prone face. If nothing else...Great for a laugh.
You use two feats to get Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, and maybe a third to get the weapon you wanna use, if you picked one you aren't proficient with. Get an attack and avoid the charge.
Edit: The spear I'm thinking of is the Guisarme. And, you get a +4 to your strength to trip them. (Keep in mind that tripping is a opposed STR check, and the Charger gets a bonus on the attack roll, not necessarily to strength, unless they're bullrushing.)Last edited by Burley; 2008-01-31 at 04:31 PM.
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2008-01-31, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
Reading the SRD, I don't see anything that prevents a charger from moving further in response to your move. So long as he moves to the closest location to where he started from, and there is a clear line from starting location to ending location, the charge works.
See:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/spe...cks.htm#charge
In effect, you move out of the way, but your opponent can "swerve" to keep the charge working.
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2008-01-31, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
A charge must be done in a straight line...
So sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't.001100010010011110100001101101110011
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2008-01-31, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
Or, if the attacker has Fleet of Foot, he can even turn up to 90 degrees during the charge anyways.
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2008-01-31, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
It's a cool trick, but Stand Still may be a better feat against chargers. Combine it with Evasive Reflexes and a reach weapon, and you can keep most enemies away from you. Or use Defensive Throw with Hold the Line to start a trip lock.
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2008-01-31, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
You don't have a charge endpoint that's set in stone, no. If you're moving normally and something happens (readied action, attack of opportunity), you could change what you were going to do after the interrupting event. The same goes for charging, except that you're not allowed to change direction. You could run an extra 5 feet in the same direction, though, assuming you weren't charging from maximum range already.
There's nothing forcing you to stick to that exact same spot.Avatar by GryffonDurime. Thanks!
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2008-01-31, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
A charge must be done in a strait line. If you have Evasive Reflexes + Hold the Line + a reach weapon, you can take two 5 ft steps to the right or left in reaction to your enemy passing through your threatened squares. There's nothing in the rules that allows him to change the trajectory of his initial charge movement. You cannot turn during a charge. So unless your enemy has more then 10 feet of reach, or he's a Drunken Master or has a similar ability, the charge fails.
I'd also note that just being able to Fly or create difficult terrain also automatically stops most charge attacks, and there are about a million ways to do so.Last edited by Person_Man; 2008-01-31 at 05:46 PM.
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2008-01-31, 05:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
Agreed, but I was thinking this was such a such a cheap and easy Feat to use, and the charger really doesn't have a chance to hit you as long as you have more reach than he does. Unlike a trip attempt, or waiting for an attack that might hurt you, it pretty much automatically takes you out of danger.
The Feat text even suggests that the 5 foot step is instead of taking an Attack of Opportunity, meaning it can be used a limitless number of times since it doesn't count as an AoO. That is, whenever the attacker tries to close the gap to attack range, the defender gets to 5' step away (as long as they aren't tricked into boxing themselves in, of course!)
What I think is the point here is that this Feat and a longspear might be all a low level sorcerer/warlock/beguiler needs to keep any one or two melee warriors (without polearms or reach weapons) at bay. It's pretty easy for a non-warrior to qualify for this, after all. The only prerequisite is Dexterity 13!
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2008-01-31, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
Yes, but since you're using in place of an AoO, you only get 1 AoO unless you have Combat Reflexes.
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2008-01-31, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
You can't get multiple attacks of opportunity for the same action. In this case, even if you could move multiple times, the charge would not provoke more than once.
As to the "instead of" catch, that's a...unique...method of interpreting the text, but one can't imagine that that would be anything close to the intent of the feat.001100010010011110100001101101110011
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2008-01-31, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
What about karmic strike or robilar's gambit? Wouldn't that make it hard for the enemy to get a full attack on you?
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2008-01-31, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
You aren't using it in the place of an AoO, you're using it instead of taking an AoO. Here's the feat text and a link to WotC's listing:
Originally Posted by wizards.com
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2008-01-31, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
Except that they only provoke an attack the first time they move out of one of your threatened squares, and then for the rest of the round they can move through them with impunity.
Originally Posted by The SRD
What about karmic strike or robilar's gambit? Wouldn't that make it hard for the enemy to get a full attack on you?Avatar by GryffonDurime. Thanks!
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2008-01-31, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
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2008-01-31, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
When an opponent gives you a chance to make an attack of opportunity, you can instead immediately take a 5-foot step.
Incidentally, one can read this in a manner where since it references "5-foot step" specifically, you can't make an additional 5-foot step if you've already made one that round.
But hey, if you want to nitpick your way to exploiting something beyond its likely RAI applications, who am I to stop you? (Damn, there's really a lot of this going around on this forum lately...)001100010010011110100001101101110011
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2008-01-31, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-01-31, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
Ah! I did not know that. So once I take an AoO from a foe for moving out of their threatened area, I can move in and out at will? that's good to know... my last DM hit me with three AoO's trying to swim away from a huge shark, and I assumed that you got AoO's as long as you remain moving out of the threatened area. But I can see what you mean here:
Originally Posted by SRDLast edited by Tokiko Mima; 2008-01-31 at 06:24 PM.
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2008-01-31, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
My friend and I were trying to combine this feat with the good old commoner rail gun. Commoners line up from here to waterdeep, and start making unarmed attacks against you. Within 6 seconds, you're there! (and the commoners still have a actions left to pass things back and fourth!)
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2008-01-31, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-02-01, 01:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
Simple. Guy charges dead on to you top center square, straight from north to south. When he Provokes, by moving from 10 feet to 5, you step back and to the left. when he provokes again, by moving from 10 feet to 5, you step to any of the squares on the left.
Voila, you've used 2 AOO's, which means you need Combat Reflexes, but the attacker can no longer move in a straight line. Since he has already declared a charge (a special attack action), he cannot then go back to another attack type.
There is no angle and direction that you can be charged from that won't get you out of the charge with one to two five foot steps.
EDIT: Many builds use two handed weapon feats, but most reach weapons are also two handed.Last edited by Talic; 2008-02-01 at 01:45 AM.
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2008-02-01, 04:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-02-14, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
ok lets try a new perspective
it's clear that you cant make more than one aoo per provoking action, in this case a charge. but, and just hear me out on this, it does not say anything about multiple provocations per actions, it only says you cant make aoo's for each provocation.
now, since Evasive Reflexes allows you to move instead of making an aoo, then, theoretically you can use Evasive Reflexes multiple times, as long as you have combat reflexes too, but can only make one actual aoo. Theoretically.
of course either way you look at it, it's cheese, munchkining and maybe even powergaming which is kinda lame. thats right, a kobold says powergaming and munchkining are lame. no pun-pun here. I play kobolds to handicap myself... and for the pure comedy gold, of course.Last edited by Krusty Kobold; 2008-02-14 at 09:00 PM.
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2008-02-14, 08:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
Here's a thought: You have a reach weapon and hold the line (medium size not large). Your opponent has a reach weapon and is medium sized. When he provokes for enterring a square you threaten while charging, step 5 feet forward, he shouldn't be able to hit you anymore (at least not with the weapon that he's probably best with). Whatcha think?
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2008-02-14, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-02-14, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-02-14, 09:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Evasive Reflexes + reach weapon = Immunity to being charged?
Exactly. It doesn't matter whether you take the attack of opportunity or the five-foot step; either way, your opponent is done provoking.