Thought Exercise: Optimal Party

[Human Paragon 3]

Hi guys. I'm bored and I suddenly got a brain storm. If you were to build the optimal party, how would you go about it? To be clear, for the purpose of this exercise, I define the optimal party as such: Able to succesfully meet the widest variety of challanges successfully, adaquately fill all party roles, with as little redundancy as is reasonable. Challenges include various combats, social interactions, and general adventuring and display of skills. Optimally, each character will play some role in all group encounters.

To limit the peramaters a bit more, we'll assume that the party will adventure from level 1 to level 12.

The party must be four members with the option of a fifth "auxilliary" character.

Draw from every class in every 3.5 legal book for your party. Multiclassing and PrCs are OK, but no character can have more than 2 base classes or 1 prestiege class.

Difficulty: No LOL 4 wizards FTW!

[Chronicled]

Wizard, Cleric or Archivist, Druid or Artificer, Beguiler or Factotum. Go with the former when in doubt, although the latter options will be better choices depending on the campaign.

Edit: As for which of them to add as the fifth person, if going Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Beguiler, then the Artificer is the best choice, with the Factotum also very strong.

[Worira]

A wizard, a druid, a cleric, and a beguiler.

Edit: accursed ninjas.

[Chronicled]

accursed ninjas.

The ninja class is most certainly not in the optimal 4-person party!

(It is a strong choice for an individual campaign, though, when you don't have a bunch of people with no concept of stealth following you.)

[Snadgeros]

Wizard, cleric, fighter, rogue.

No, seriously, what's wrong with that? The game was built around these four roles, and none of them overlap, provided the cleric doesn't go CoDzilla. They've got all of the bases covered here. For a fifth man, throw in a bard for some "Plan B" casting, healing, fighting, and skills, not to mention some sweet buffs.

[Arbitrarity]

An Artificer, a Wizard/Incantatrix, an Archivist, and a Druid. 5'th member is a Factotum/Chameleon.

The Artificer does rogue, and magic stuff, along with metamagic cheese, as does the Chameleon. The Chameleon gets every spell in-game for the wizard and archivist, by getting extra spell with his floating feat. The chameleon and artificer team up for item crafting as well.

The wizard does metamagic cheese for everyone, while being batman. The Archivist does all list divine casting cheese, better than the chameleon, as well as being a secondary melee prescence, along with the artificer and the chameleon. The Druid goes melee, and kills everything with it, while covering the divine caster role a bit.

Redundancy? Moderate. The chameleon isn't horribly useful, but he can be anything, which makes him useful if someone falls. Also, his boosting the wizard and archivist is incredibly powerful.

Whoops. I forgot. The Archivist takes Magical Training, and goes into Dwenomerkeeper for metamagic cheese, spontaneous casting, and free wishes/miracles with supernatural spell.

[Dragonmuncher]

Wizard, cleric, fighter, rogue.

No, seriously, what's wrong with that? The game was built around these four roles, and none of them overlap, provided the cleric doesn't go CoDzilla. They've got all of the bases covered here. For a fifth man, throw in a bard for some "Plan B" casting, healing, fighting, and skills, not to mention some sweet buffs.

Well, there's nothing WRONG with it, but the goal is "optimal." And just to pick the easiest argument, a Cleric or Druid can out-fighter the fighter without much difficulty.

[Chronicled]

Wizard, cleric, fighter, rogue.

No, seriously, what's wrong with that? The game was built around these four roles, and none of them overlap, provided the cleric doesn't go CoDzilla. They've got all of the bases covered here. For a fifth man, throw in a bard for some "Plan B" casting, healing, fighting, and skills, not to mention some sweet buffs.

What's wrong with that is that the OP asked for the optimal 4-person party, not the iconic 4-person party.

[Human Paragon 3]

How about Psychic Warrior, Wizard, Beguiler, Druid/Master of Many Forms? I think this team would be incredably versatile. I'm having difficulty concieving a challenge that they couldn't overcome. Not only do they have the necessary abillities to overcome any challenge, but each can contribute to all types of challenges. The only weak point would be Beguiler in a non-charmable combat situation, but that's what advanced learning is for.

[Duke of URL]

Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Beguiler.

The last can be the "skill monkey" and the party "face", and you don't have to worry about any accursed "non-casters" in your group.

[MandibleBones]

Wizard, Archvist, Swordsage, Warblade.

We've all agreed on Wizard, right?

Archivist for all your divine needs (whether druid or cleric).

Swordsage is your stealth-monkey, and archivist picks up the slack as far as skills go.

Warblade is your "I hit things" class, since it does it better than the fighter in much the same fashion - even so far as having fighter bonus feats.

[Chronicled]

How about Psychic Warrior, Wizard, Beguiler, Druid/Master of Many Forms? I think this team would be incredably versatile. I'm having difficulty concieving a challenge that they couldn't overcome. Not only do they have the necessary abillities to overcome any challenge, but each can contribute to all types of challenges. The only weak point would be Beguiler in a non-charmable combat situation, but that's what advanced learning is for.

Cleric > Psychic Warrior

Druid > Druid/MoMF (usually)

Your selection would be quite versatile, it's true. However, the second weak point is the Psychic Warrior -- much as I love them, the Cleric beats them hands down for out of combat utility (even for skills), and is better in melee.

Edit: The Psychic Warrior also has problems with running out of power points, more so than the Cleric does with spells.

[Snadgeros]

Well, there's nothing WRONG with it, but the goal is "optimal." And just to pick the easiest argument, a Cleric or Druid can out-fighter the fighter without much difficulty.

Ah! But his definition of "optimal" was not "most overpowered classes!" He said to make a party that could fulfill a wide variety of tasks, check, filled all party roles, check, and with as little redundancy as possible. Under these stipulations, my iconic party is best, as it has little to no overlap, fills the 4 roles, and should be able to overcome any level-appropriate assignment.

Your parties, on the other hand, have ridiculous amounts of redundancy when compared to mine, with multiple casters and healers. So while your party is more powerful, it does not meet the OP's definition of "optimized."

[Jack Zander]

Gonna have to say Beguiler, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard here. Covers everything prefectly with no one steping on each others toes.

[MandibleBones]

Your parties, on the other hand, have ridiculous amounts of redundancy

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

re·dun·dant
adj.
Exceeding what is necessary or natural; superfluous.

Yes, there is some overlap - in mine especially. But the ability for a party to defend itself is always necessary.

[Chronicled]

Ah! But his definition of "optimal" was not "most overpowered classes!" He said to make a party that could fulfill a wide variety of tasks, check, filled all party roles, check, and with as little redundancy as possible. Under these stipulations, my iconic party is best, as it has little to no overlap, fills the 4 roles, and should be able to overcome any level-appropriate assignment.

Your parties, on the other hand, have ridiculous amounts of redundancy when compared to mine, with multiple casters and healers. So while your party is more powerful, it does not meet the OP's definition of "optimized."

Your party falls short in two areas: "Able to succesfully meet the widest variety of challanges successfully," and "Optimally, each character will play some role in all group encounters." (Admittedly, the latter quoted section demands some redundancy in the party makeup.)

The Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Beguiler party can meet a wider variety of challenges successfully, and each member can contribute to nearly all group encounters -- for example, the Cleric, Druid, and Beguiler all have Diplomacy as a class skill, while the Wizard has access to Charm Person, Suggestion, etc. Your iconic party has the Fighter twiddling his thumbs in such a situation (unless he's built like a GiaMonk).

[Chronos]

I was also going to say Wizard, Beguiler, Cleric, Druid.

Everyone knows why Wizard is on the list, so I won't waste time there.

Beguiler is there primarily as skill-monkey. Rogue can fill this role slightly better, but the Beguiler does well enough, and also contributes magic.

Cleric and druid are front-line meatshields, and also happen to be full casters. I'm taking one of each because their areas of expertise are different, so this gives more versatility.

Some other comments:
Spellthieves are just as good at the skillmonkey role as beguilers, and with three full casters in the party, they have plenty of options for spells to borrow (even if up against non-magical enemies). So that would probably be a viable substitution. On the other hand, the beguiler's presence makes it a lot easier for the wizard to specialize.

Archivists can be very nice, but between the cleric, druid, and wizard, we already have access to darn near every spell in the game, anyway. And the archivist doesn't have the combat prowess of the cleric. So he's out.

Artficiers are also powerful, but with so many casters, item creation is going to be very easy, anyway (each feat need only be taken by one of the characters), which removes one of the major advantages of the artificier.

[Arbitrarity]

Hm. My party needs better social skills. Chameleon is pretty good, wizard has magic, I suppose druid and archivist have the potential. Chameleon is still better, but he's a 5'th wheel. Prehaps replace the druid with a beguiler, but that leaves melee rather weak. Wait, though, the wizard can just use some cheese from Incantatrix to give the archivist free metamagic, so persist stuff anyways. Ah, there we go.

[Snadgeros]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.



Yes, there is some overlap - in mine especially. But the ability for a party to defend itself is always necessary.

First off, massive kudos to you for quoting my favorite movie ever.

Secondly, I'm not looking to get deeply involved in this debate here; I'm just tossing in my two cents and passing along. Okay, yes, your parties meet wider varieties of tasks and your tank doesn't twiddle his thumbs during diplomacy rolls, but I'm just pointing out something most of you didn't take into account. Wizard, beguiler, cleric, and druid might be a kickass party and meet all of the other requirements, but I'm sure there's a way SOMEONE can reduce the overlap here. Right now you've got two arcane casters, two divine casters, two tanks, two blasters, and three diplomacers. Pretty much the only area there that's covered by ONE person is the skillmonkey, although batman there could cover that if he devoted his spell selection as such.

[Cyclone231]

The game was built around these four roles, and none of them overlap, provided the cleric doesn't go CoDzilla.

I don't think you understand CoDzilla. CoDzilla is not a wanked out munchkinny cleric or druid. CoDzilla is any cleric or druid.

They are THAT powerful.

[Draz74]

Too many good options. But if simplicity is considered a good thing, here's a very decent and fun party with no multiclassing or PrCs or Vancian casting or setting-specific material.

Raptoran Warblade 12
Human Dragonfire Adept 12
Elan Ardent 12
Whisper Gnome Factotum 12

It's not optimized for power (like everyone else's so far), but it's optimized for flexibility, simplicity, and fun. And can still handle combat pretty well.

[Telonius]

I was also going to say Wizard, Beguiler, Cleric, Druid.

Everyone knows why Wizard is on the list, so I won't waste time there.

Beguiler is there primarily as skill-monkey. Rogue can fill this role slightly better, but the Beguiler does well enough, and also contributes magic.

Cleric and druid are front-line meatshields, and also happen to be full casters. I'm taking one of each because their areas of expertise are different, so this gives more versatility.

Some other comments:
Spellthieves are just as good at the skillmonkey role as beguilers, and with three full casters in the party, they have plenty of options for spells to borrow (even if up against non-magical enemies). So that would probably be a viable substitution. On the other hand, the beguiler's presence makes it a lot easier for the wizard to specialize.

Archivists can be very nice, but between the cleric, druid, and wizard, we already have access to darn near every spell in the game, anyway. And the archivist doesn't have the combat prowess of the cleric. So he's out.

Artficiers are also powerful, but with so many casters, item creation is going to be very easy, anyway (each feat need only be taken by one of the characters), which removes one of the major advantages of the artificier.

Artificer to fill in the fifth wheel, maybe? Each Item Creation feat the Artificer takes is a Metamagic feat the Wizard can take.

Or you could go with something completely different, and have a Bard built for item creation.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Artificer - ultra batman. Give him time, he can probably come up with a solution to a problem. Also, tons of metamagic.
Archivistidweomerwizardkeeper - I disagree with Fax, here - rereading alternative source spell does seem to allow you to prepare your wizard spells in cleric spots. Anyway, this character is batman, having literally all the spells, and also that oh-so-sweet alternative source spell.
Crusader/Wizard/Jade Phoenix Mage - Tank, during the early game. Mid range support at later levels.
Beguiler - face.

[FlyMolo]

Lesee. You need a good melee guy, a good magic guy, a good skills guy, and a healing guy. The 5th guy is just icing on the cake.

I'd say a thri-keen fighter/warmind with a pair of spiked chains and great cleave.(by 12th level, he can hit 8 squares around him, plus more if he gets a cleave. Sweeping Strike ftw.) Spring Attack, Mobility, etc etc. Superior cleave if you can get it, and just hack through the ranks of weak enemies almost instantly. Alternatives to a pair of spiked chains: one spiked chain and a pair of long swords, or a light reach weapon if you can find one.

Wizard for the magic guy. Maybe an archivist, but I don't know how they work. *shrug*

Spellthief. Skills that are important only. Disable Device, Search, Hide, MS, etc. Stuff that other people aren't advancing. With 3 casters and a manifester in the party, go nuts. Take the enemy's magic away. Bow and point blank shot.

Cleric. Need I say more? Get a big hammer. Hit things.

The 5th guy can by a druid, throwing in more meatshielding and magic. Alternatives are the Warlock, for spiderclimb, darkness, etc. A good build for the warlock might be an overpowered combination of classes that get good stuff in the darkness, and the warlocks at will darkness SLA. It's on these forums somewhere.

[valadil]

Cleric, Wizard, and Beguiler. Those are necessary. Past that I'd go with a gish of the wiz, human paragon, spellsword 3, eldritch knight X variety with a spiked chain. Other than that a bard, druid, or even another tank would be pretty happy.

[AKA_Bait]

Going to go with:

Wizard
Archivist
Druid
Beguiler/Factotem

5th man:
Artificer or Beguiler/Factotem

This post brought to you by the 'Yes Spells Really Are That Powerful" foundation.

[Indon]

I don't think you understand CoDzilla. CoDzilla is not a wanked out munchkinny cleric or druid. CoDzilla is any cleric or druid.

They are THAT powerful.

That's not how it generally works out in practice - at least, for the Cleric. For the Cleric to match the Fighter in combat effectiveness, he needs to either use divine metamagic (which is generally agreed to be very, very cheesy) to precast his buffs, or to spend rounds of combat casting (which, considering combats are usually very short, is a big problem).

All the Druid needs to do, on the other hand, is spend all his time Wildshaped with Natural Spell, and use his OOC telepathy whenever he wants to communicate anything to the party.

As for the optimal party, I'll go with a Wizard for encounter resolution, a Druid for stealth, divine casting and melee combat, a Warlock for UMD and endurance scenarios, and a Factotum for everything else (including arcane spells the Wizard can not or does not take).

Outside of blasting and Turn Undead, there's actually not much redundancy provided everyone coordinates a bit on spell and ability choices.

Edit: And they can have a Samurai as a 5'th man.

[Duke of URL]

Edit: And they can have a Samurai as a 5'th man.

What, there's a shortage of horses to carry the luggage?

[Indon]

What, there's a shortage of horses to carry the luggage?

I wanted to pick a 5'th member that would minimize the increase in my party's redundancy.

[Telonius]

Well, Samurai has the market on Uselessness nearly cornered, so I don't see any redundancy there. Horses can occasionally be useful.