Gestalt Build Challenge I: Melee Masters (RESULTS IN #98)

[Duke of URL]

GESTALT BUILD CHALLENGE I: MELEE MASTERS

Magic... bah! Who needs it? A true warrior trusts only his own hands and the weapons they hold, if any.

"Gestalt Build Challenge" General Rules

Unless otherwise specified in the specific challenge, the following rules and guidelines are always in effect:

• Gestalt builds; 28-point buy; use any WOTC 3.5 product (including Dragon magazine) except where noted (only 3.0 products with an official upgrade to 3.5 are allowed)
• Make all builds to ECL 20. However, indicate the minimum ECL the build is playable at (the level at which all LA and/or racial HD, if applicable, are accounted for) and label any level that indicates a "power break" where the build has a significant jump in power level. Provide a detailed description of how the build operates.
• Any race with a listed level adjustment is allowed (no racial progressions from Savage Species, please). LA and HD each apply to one side of the gestalt; you may include LA and HD on the same side as each other, or on other sides. No LA buyoff. LA is applied before racial HD, which must be paid off before class levels on that side. Examples: LA X / RHD Y / class Z / ... // class A / ... -OR- LA X / class Y / ... // RHD A / class B / ...
• Multiclass at will, but see "voting".
• Up to two flaws are allowed, but see "voting".
• Templates are allowed, but see "voting".
• Voting: Upon the close of entries for each challenge, members of the forum may vote in-thread for the build that best represents the goals set out by the challenge. The voting criteria should consist of:
  • Functionality: How well does the build do in its primary role as specified in the challenge?
  • Weaknesses: Does the build have any glaring weaknesses that can be exploited?
  • Playability: How much of the 1-20 level range can the build be played at and be effective?
  • Creativity: Clever use of races, classes, and/or feats that may not be "typical" choices
  • Cheese: Minimizing the number of cheese points
    • Using flaws (1 point each)
    • Ignoring mutliclassing penalties (1 point each)
    • Single-level dips that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point each)
    • Templates that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point per +1 LA)
    • Attempting to use more than one PrC at any given level (1 point each)
    • Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each)
    • Over-dependence on items (1 point per indispensable item)
    • Over-dependence on Diplomacy or Use Magic Device skills (1,000,000 points each)

"Melee Masters" Specific Rules

• Entries may be submitted and edited up until noon PST on Tuesday, Feb. 5, 2008.
• Absolutely no spellcasting or psionic classes may be used at any point in the build; any "half-caster" class must use a non-spellcasting variant if one is available, otherwise, tough luck.
• Challenge goals: Kill or incapacitate enemies in any arbitrary quantities as efficiently and reliably as possible, while staying alive long enough to do it.
• Please try to follow the format of the example (but also a legit entry) in the next post
• Submitted Entries:
  • "Blender"
  • "Shadowfist"
  • "Return Fire"
  • "Swift Sickle Hunter"
  • "DDR (Dervish Dance Rend)"
  • "Unarmed Whirlwind of Doom"
  • "Claws, Flame and Glaive of Immolation"
  • "Seige Engine"
  • "Fulbar the Redeemed"
  • "Frankenninja's Monster" <== WINNER!
  • "A Bear With The Strength Of Two Bears"
  • "Thri-Keen"
  • "Antarnis"

Upcoming Challenges

• Great Gishes -- arcanist/warriors who excel at both
• The Urge To Theurge -- mixing and matching magic (and psionic) disciplines
• Army Of One -- single-creature adventuring parties
• Invocation Vocation -- invokers need a little loving, too
• Double Dippers -- double arcane, double divine, or double psionic progressions
• more to come...

[Duke of URL]

Name: "Blender"
Build: Pixie Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / (Non-Spellcasting) Ranger 2 / Fighter 2 / Dervish 10 / Tempest 5 // LA 4 / Rogue 16
Starting Ability Scores: STR 10, DEX 26, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 12
Cheese Points: 1 (Lion Totem Barbarian dip)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 5
Power Break: Level 15 - Savvy Rogue + Crippling Strike means STR damage to any flanked or flat-footed creature. Oh, and you get A Thousand Cuts at the same time

Pixie: [Dodge, Weapon Finesse] {Pixie Traits}
1: Ranger 1 // LA 1: Mobility {Favored Enemy, Wild Empathy}
2: Lion Totem Barb 1 // LA 2: {Pounce}
3: Ranger 2 // LA 3: Combat Expertise [TWF]
4: Fighter 1 // LA 4: [Weapon Focus: Scimitar]
5: Fighter 2 // Rogue 1: [Improved Initiative]
6: Dervish 1 // Rogue 2: Improved TWF {*AC Bonus, *Dervish Dance, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blades, *Evasion}
7: Dervish 2 // Rogue 3: {*Fast Movement; Trap Sense}
8: Dervish 3 // Rogue 4: [Spring Attack] {Uncanny Dodge}
9: Dervish 4 // Rogue 5: Combat Reflexes {*Dance of Death}
10: Dervish 5 // Rogue 6:
11: Dervish 6 // Rogue 7: {Improved Reaction}
12: Dervish 7 // Rogue 8: Greater TWF {Elaborate Parry, Improved Uncanny Dodge}
13: Dervish 8 // Rogue 9:
14: Dervish 9 // Rogue 10: {Tireless Dance, Crippling Strike}
15: Dervish 10 // Rogue 11: Savvy Rogue {A Thousand Cuts}
16: Tempest 1 // Rogue 12: {Tempest Defense}
17: Tempest 2 // Rogue 13: {Ambidexterity, Opportunist}
18: Tempest 3 // Rogue 14: Defensive Sweep {Two-Weapon Versitility}
19: Tempest 4 // Rogue 15:
20: Tempest 5 // Rogue 16: {Two-Weapon Spring Attack, Slippery Mind}

Offense:

High DEX plus Improved Initiative plus Improved Reaction leads to going first most of the time. Pounce (using fly speed of 75') to land a large number of sneak attacks; at level 15 and beyond these still do 2 STR damage each to enemies immune to sneak attack damage thanks to Savvy Rogue. In successive rounds, use Dervish Dance and invisibility to their best effects, resorting to Spring Attack to back off and attempt another Pounce if necessary. In a thicket of enemies, Defensive Sweep can result in a large number of AoOs. Full BAB at all levels.

Weapon choices should focus on debilitating effects (with no save, such as Enfeebling) rather than additional damage.

Defense:

High dexterity, good HP, natural armor +1, total concealment from invisibility, DR 10/cold iron, SR 15 + level, flight, good and balanced saving throws at pretty much all levels.

Weaknesses:

Relies on magic items to boost AC. True seeing, etc., can be a problem.

[Draz74]

[*]Absolutely no spellcasting or psionic classes may be used at any point in the build;

No Psychic Warrior allowed in a melee build contest? Lame.

[Talya]

Damn. I love this idea. Gimme time, I could play with it forever.

[Frosty]

I can do something basica really quickly. I think I'll do my own version of the Blender.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Qurey regarding Tome of Blood and Martial Adept mechanics.

Fluff says that maneuvers and disciplines are Extraordinary and Supernatural and all classes provide at least a 1/2 initiator level.

I view Disciplines like schools Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Doe. All classes provide at least a 1/2 Initiator level. ToB has rules for multiclassing in disciplines regarding MR and initiator levels.

IMO if two classes are providing a initiator level in gestalt and one is 1/2 and the other is 1 you use the 1 for both of them since gestalt takes the best of the build which would include the best of MK, MR and SK at each level.

In Gestalt and only under Gestalt rules I believe Warblade maneuver recovery would trump Swordsage maneuver recovery if at some point in the build the two classes crossover because this is impossible under the normal rules and it will make a major difference in the builds.

[Hunter Noventa]

In regards to ToB, the stances and manuvers for having two classes in this fashion are tracked seperately, just as if you were playing a Wizard//Sorcerer. As such, each set of manuvers has to be recovered seperately as well. So with a Swordsage//Warblade you could either use the Warblade's recovery and get all the manuvers you learned as a Warblade back, or the Swordsage recovery to get a single Swordsage manuver back.

Also, I'd like to try my hand at this, but where does the Factotum's casting ability fall under this? If you are unaware, they get a small number of of spells each day that they can use as spell like abilities. So if one took Magic Missile it's be like (Sp) Magic Missile 1/day. They just hapen to be able to change the spells they can cast every morning. Honeslty my build would barely if at all use it, but I want to know if you'll allow it.

[CASTLEMIKE]

In regards to ToB, the stances and manuvers for having two classes in this fashion are tracked seperately, just as if you were playing a Wizard//Sorcerer. As such, each set of manuvers has to be recovered seperately as well. So with a Swordsage//Warblade you could either use the Warblade's recovery and get all the manuvers you learned as a Warblade back, or the Swordsage recovery to get a single Swordsage manuver back.

I understand that reasoning and the reason for my gestalt query to the OP because Martial Adept levels confer a stacking +1/2 for any class which is different than the sorcerer/wizard spellcasting analogy commonly brought up. This issue only comes up in a gestalt game where a PC can take advantage of it since it is never ever an option at any other time in game when the PC is multiclassing instead of simultaneously dual leveling.

Taking levels in sorcerer does not normally automatically confer +1/2 CL to the other class like initiator levels do for all classes.

[Hunter Noventa]

I understand that reasoning and the reason for my gestalt query to the OP because Martial Adept levels confer a stacking +1/2 for any class which is different than the sorcerer/wizard spellcasting analogy. This only comes up in a gestalt game.

Taking levels in sorcerer does not normally automatically confer +1/2 CL to the other class like initiator levels do for all classes.

Except that the +1/2 applies to non Martial Adept classes, and the Martial Adept classes add their own +1. Initiator Level is different than caster level in that everybody has one no matter their class selection. If you hav a Regular Character that's a Swordsage6/Warblade6, your initiator level is 12, not Swordsage IL 9 and Warblade IL 9.

The Comparison to Wizard//Sorcerer is that the classes have different spell selection. In the same vein, Swordsage and Warbalde have different lists of manuvers to choose from, and are tracked seperately, even in Gestalt. So you can't regain your Swordsage manuvers with your Warblade Recovery the same way the Sorcerer can't pick a spell out of his Spellbook to cast spontaneously if he didn't learn it as a Sorcerer.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Except that the +1/2 applies to non Martial Adept classes, and the Martial Adept classes add their own +1. Initiator Level is different than caster level in that everybody has one no matter their class selection. If you hav a Regular Character that's a Swordsage6/Warblade6, your initiator level is 12, not Swordsage IL 9 and Warblade IL 9.

I believe that is incorrect a Swordsage - 6, Warblade - 6 has an initator level of 9 for both classes under the standard ToB rules unless you are using an errata.

Page 39 of ToB has an example of a Crusader - 7, Swordsage -5 with an Initiator level of 8 as a Swordsage and and an initiator level of 9 as a Crusader.

[Duke of URL]

where does the Factotum's casting ability fall under this? If you are unaware, they get a small number of of spells each day that they can use as spell like abilities. So if one took Magic Missile it's be like (Sp) Magic Missile 1/day. They just hapen to be able to change the spells they can cast every morning. Honeslty my build would barely if at all use it, but I want to know if you'll allow it.

Personally, I feel that it would violate the spirit of the challenge. However, I'm but one vote -- if you think enough people will let it slide, go for it.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Personally, I feel that it would violate the spirit of the challenge. However, I'm but one vote -- if you think enough people will let it slide, go for it.

It's your thread which basically makes you the DM so I prefer to abide by your rules and not waste my time on an illegal build.

[Hunter Noventa]

I believe that is incorrect a Swordsage - 6, Warblade - 6 has an initator level of 9 for both classes under the standard ToB rules unless you are using an errata.

You know what, I'm thinking backwards, you're right on that point, even if it means that a Warblade20//Swordsage20 would have an IL of 30 for both classes...

But the manuvers are still tracked and recovered seperately, even in Gestalt, which is the real point i was trying to make.

[Indon]

I'd vote against any build that heavily relied on SLA's, myself.

I also very much like this thread idea, and hope to be posting a build.

[Duke of URL]

It's your thread which basically makes you the DM so I prefer to abide by your rules and not waste my time on an illegal build.

I'm trying to leave things somewhat intentionally vague and in the hands of the eventual voters.

[Rachel Lorelei]

The point of Factotum wouldn't be to rely on SLAs. It would be to take Font of Inspiration a bunch of times, accumulating disgustingly high quantities of Inspiration Points, and then spend them on the level 8 Cunning Surge ability to take lots of extra standard actions. Couple this with the Warblade (powerful standard-action maneuvers; INT dependency) for obvious power: you unleash all of your maneuvers as soon as you go, basically, and leave a smoking crater behind.

[CASTLEMIKE]

You know what, I'm thinking backwards, you're right on that point, even if it means that a Warblade20//Swordsage20 would have an IL of 30 for both classes...

But the manuvers are still tracked and recovered seperately, even in Gestalt, which is the real point i was trying to make.

No in gestalt it would be IL - 20 at L20 taking the best of 1/2 and 1 or 1 and 1 at each level is still only 1 not 1&1/2.

No I disagree that is the only valid rules interpretation in a gestalt game. Under gestalt rules the PC could and would take the best of MK, MR and SK gained at each level and dropping the rest but I respect that not everyone interprets or uses the rules that way in their gestalt games. Basically going Swordsage or Warblade with a few level dips would be best IMO. Yes it is very powerful but so is fullcasting.

I believe it mostly depends on how the rules are interpreted and applied in a game and everyone is having fun. I'm generally an optimizer particularly in a long campaign. The other side of my build was going to include Factotum for the IPs and the skill Iajutsu Focus which also appears out of favor for the thread.

[Hunter Noventa]

I believe it mostly depends on how the rules are interpreted and applied in a game and everyone is having fun.

Yeah, it's definitely a matter of interpretation,e specially since Gestalt rules were published long before ToB, and the rules in ToB took multiclassing into account but not Gestalt, since it's an optional ruleset.

Anyway, my build isn't going to have Martial Adepts on both sides, so it's somewhat moot.

[Duke of URL]

Since the response seems positive so far, I've updated post #1 to list the upcoming challenges I'm thinking of.

[Draz74]

No Psychic Warrior allowed in a melee build contest? Lame.

And another question. Should dual-progression PrCs be allowed, as long as they only advance two classes from the same "side"? E.g. Rogue 20//Wizard 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10?

This question doesn't matter two much for the current, melee-centric contest, but it will matter a lot in the future.

[Duke of URL]

Should dual-progression PrCs be allowed, as long as they only advance two classes from the same "side"? E.g. Rogue 20//Wizard 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10?

That's covered under the "cheese points". Short answer: No.

[CASTLEMIKE]

In progress and subject to change

[playswithfire]

Name: "DDR (Dervish Dance Rend)"
Build: Succubus(LA 6/HD 6)/ Warblade 8// Battle Dancer 2/Paladin of Slaughter 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 2/Bloodclaw Master 2/Dervish 10
Starting Ability Scores: STR 12, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 20, WIS 12, CHA 31(+5 to 36 at 20)
Cheese Points: 3 (one flaw,slippers of battledancing, the kukris)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 12
Power Break: Significant increases at 12 (improved energy drain), 15(lightning maces) and 20(thousand cuts

Succubus: {Succubus Traits}
 1 LA/Battledancer		feat[Weapon Focus(kukri)]
				flaw(shaky)[Weapon Focus(Light Mace)]
				CHA to unarmored AC
 2 LA/Battledancer		
 3 LA/Paladin of Slaughter	feat[Combat Expertise]
 4 LA/Paladin of Slaughter	
 5 LA/Fighter			fighter[Dodge]
 6 LA/Fighter			fighter[Mobility]
				feat[Two Weapon Fighting]
 7 Succubus/Warblade		stance[Blood in the Water]
 8 Succubus/Warblade		
 9 Succubus/bloodclaw		feat[Improved Two Weapon Fighting]
				claws of the beast
10 Succubus/bloodclaw		Superior Two Weapon Fighting
11 Succubus/Dervish		
12 Succubus/Dervish		feat[Improved Energy Drain]
13 Warblade/Dervish		
14 Warblade/Dervish		
15 Warblade/Dervish		warblade[combat reflexes]
				feat[Lightning Maces]
16 Warblade/Dervish		
17 Warblade/Dervish		
18 Warblade/Dervish		feat[Greater Two Weapon Fighting]
19 Warblade/Dervish		
20 Warblade/Dervish

Notable gear: Slippers of Battledancing, 2 +1 Keen Aptitude Necrotic Focus kukris
Stuff I'd probably get but it's not critical: Blindfold of true seeing, CHA, CON and DEX boosting items, ring of freedom of movement

Offense: Full BAB, no penalties to two weapon fighting, full strength to offhand weapon. While dervish dancing or using Charging Pounce maneuver to go more than 10 feet, use CHA (+13) for hit and damage on melee. Staying mainly in blood in the water stance to get most benefit out of the kukri's threat range.

Every attack that threatens a critical gets me another attack (Lightning maces attuned to kukris), every hit drains a level and gives stacking +1s to attack, save and skill rolls for an hour (Improved Energy Drain), every confirmed crit drains another level (so an additional +1 to those rolls) and adds stacking +1 to attack and damage rolls as long as I crit at least once every 10 rounds.

Good Manuevers: Pouncing Charge, Raging Mongoose, Girallon Windmill Fleshrip

Defense:

High AC thanks to +9 natural armor and +13 CHA bonus to unarmored AC thanks to battle dancer. Good saves across the board thanks to paladin giving charisma to all saves and the ability to boost them with Improved Energy Drain. DR 10/cold iron or good and SR 18+class levels, immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10

Weaknesses: Gear dependent to get some of the best effects. Needs to keep moving to be at maximum effectiveness. Please point out any others I'm not seeing.

[Draz74]

That's covered under the "cheese points". Short answer: No.

Right. The idea is that I don't agree with that rule and was advocating changing it. Because I think most DMs are fine with dual-prog PrCs in Gestalt, as long as they follow this restriction.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Because I'm to lazy to actually stat anything up, I'll throw this out there for anyone to use. Melee class on one side, Rogue on the other, TWF optimized, with a wand of UMD so you always have a flanking partner. Lots of D6's that way.

[_Puppetmaster_]

is savage species considered 3.5 for this?

[Duke of URL]

Right. The idea is that I don't agree with that rule and was advocating changing it. Because I think most DMs are fine with dual-prog PrCs in Gestalt, as long as they follow this restriction.

I'm not fine with it, as you're now advancing three classes per level instead of two. The gestalt rules specifically recommend against doing what you are asking for, and I agree with them.

[Draz74]

I'm not fine with it, as you're now advancing three classes per level instead of two. The gestalt rules specifically recommend against doing what you are asking for, and I agree with them.

OK. Just a suggestion.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely think dual-PrCs shouldn't be allowed if they advance things from both sides of your progression. Cleric 3/Rogue 17//Wizard 10/Mystic Theurge 10 is very different from the build I posted earlier (because it loses no caster levels, at least until Level 13), and I am definitely against Gestalt allowing these types of builds. They are, IMHO, the reason the Gestalt rules "specifically recommend against" dual-PrCs.

[CASTLEMIKE]

I was rereading the rules and LA and HD should probably apply to both sides of the build.

[Duke of URL]

I was rereading the rules and LA and HD should probably apply to both sides of the build.

Maybe, but as you pointed out before, it's my thread.

Seriously, in the gestalt games I've seen, there's been no consistent application at all -- I went with the most lenient form that seems to work.

Applying HD to both sides honestly seems wrong -- racial HD should act exactly like a character class, so one side or the other makes perfect sense. LA is trickier -- you could apply it to both sides, but that actually makes LA more penalizing in gestalt than in normal play, given the increased power level per character level. A happier medium would be to use LA/2 (round up) on each side or LA on one side only, which is the way I went.