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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    Evulsive Decimation
    Evocation [Force]
    Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 7
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: Standard Action
    Range: Medium
    Target: Two targets no further apart than 5 feet/level from each other
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: Special
    Spell Resistance: No

    The caster causes an elastic property within the matter between two points to suddenly contract like a giant elastic band, bringing them together with crushing force. The two targets can be objects or creatures, mobile or immobile, secured or rooted to the ground, or not. This connection does not have to be horizontal; the caster could connect a flying creature to the ground, the base of a tree to the top of a nearby building, or even a charging foe to a point in the sky above it.

    The effect becomes a three-way bullrush, where both targets at the extremes of the spell resist against the force of the elastic energy that is jerking them together. Both creatures and objects roll to resist the bullrush, taking feats, size, and other factors into account as normal. The caster also rolls to initiate the bullrush, and adds both his primary spellcasting ability modifier, and half of his caster level to the check.

    Both targets succeed at their bullrush roll: They both have their movement checked for one round, but suffer no other effects.

    Both targets fail at their bullrush roll: They are wrenched into the exact middle of the spell effect, colliding with tremendous force. Each one takes two times the amount of falling damage (20d6 maximum) that they would have taken if they had fallen the same distance, and then falls prone to the ground.

    Only one target fails its bullrush roll: It is jerked all the way across the distance to the other target, taking falling damage as if it had fallen the same distance (up to 10d6 maximum), and then falls prone to the ground. The other target, the one that resisted the bullrush, has its movement checked for one round, and must succeed at a Fortitude save or take the same damage and fall prone. Success halves the damage and keeps it upright.

    If one of the targets was a point in space (in the sky, down in a chasm, etc), then the other target, if it fails to resist the bullrush, is flung past that point with no impact, but continues in that direction for another 10 feet per two caster levels (in effect multiplying the distance traveled by 1.5) before it crashes to the ground, to take normal falling damage for that height.

    Any airborne creature that is successfully flung to the ground with this spell takes the appropriate falling damage, multiplied by 2 (up to 20d6 maximum).

    In any case of impact, take into account extra damage from armor spikes, energy effects, spiked pits, and other factors that are affecting one or more of the two targets. Also, in any case of an impact, both targets must roll a successful Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d4+2 rounds. A successful save still stuns the creature for one round.

    This spell is ineffective if there is not a line of effect between the caster and at least one of the targets, and a line of effect between the two targets.
    Last edited by Stycotl; 2008-09-06 at 12:38 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    this idea came to me when i was sitting in physics the other day, reading about elastic energy potential.

    editing points:

    want to add something to the caster's bullrush attempt, since many of his targets will get size modifiers, etc, and some of them will have spiffy feats. i had thought about adding +1 to his roll for every 5 ranks in knowledge (arcane) or (engineering) or something, but there is not really any precedent for that in other spells.

    level was originally 7, with 10'/level between targets, but then i realized that this would allow 20d6 damage at 20th level, and 40d6 damage if the one target was launched at the other, which was ridiculous. so i am contemplating a damage cap. if i remember right, falling damage has a cap anyway, so i *might* use that. i am open to suggestions.

    i liked the bullrush mechanic, but it still seems like there should be an initial reflex save to avoid getting grabbed in the first place. however, then it is unbalanced in favor of the targets. so i decided to leave it out. if anyone likes the idea of putting an initial reflex save in there, let me know what i could do to make it more evil for those who fail. i thought maybe give them a penalty to resist the bullrush of -1 for each point that they failed their save by, or something.

    and lastly, at the moment, i am not sure if there is already a mechanic for bullrushing a building, tree, statue, boulder, etc. but i figure that there should be. if not, off the top of my head, the object would get size modifiers, then bonuses depending on its stability, AND then bonuses dependent if it is rootde to the ground, like a large tree or building, as opposed to just sitting there, like a wagon, giant boulder, or something else.

    have at it. thanks, aaron out.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    Interesting idea, but I think that it gets highly bogged down in the details...
    It becomes a bit hard to determine how much damage should be applied, in addition to utilizing the seldom-used Bullrush mechanics... which IIRC make this difficult to use against larger creatures. But then, I've never used Bullrush with full mechanics in game (no wait, I did do something similar in a special case to knock a monologuing villain off of a balcony... I think the DM pulled a houseruling on the fly there...)so I'm not familiar with them.

    I presume you're trying to power up Telekinesis for more direct-damage?
    I think I would try to streamline the mechanics to make it easier to manage in game... Right now it just doesn't seem worth a spell slot that could be used (in the same School) on an Empowered Cone of Cold...
    I always prefered using that spell to drop people off of ledges/cliffs/buildings...
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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    thanks. one of the reasons i made this up is cuz i wanted to see the bullrush mech get some attention.

    another reason is that i liked the idea of being able to use a large creature's size against it. it doesn't matter that i connect one end of the spell to a gargantuan dragon, cuz it is most likely going to pull whatever i use on the other end (villager, lance, rock, pot of boiling oil, fluffy bunny) towards it at terrifying speed. true, after its save it probably won't take too much damage, but at least some.
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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    about the spell level slot" i can understand that, and do have a harder time justifying it. this was made with one character in mind in particular, who is fsacinated with science, and tries to incorporate as much as he can learn into his wizardly magic. some of his spells are ridiculous.

    i originally wanted this one more powerful, and am considering upping it to 9th or at least 8th level to give it some more potential (maybe more stun-time, or just knock 'em out completely, or something else i haven't thought of yet).
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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    no oter takers? i know one of you has a point you want to make...

    as for complicated: yeah, i know it is complex. though not too bad. but i don't mind complex. i don't however like muddled. if it is unclear, let me know, please.

    complexity really breaks down simply:

    both targets bullrush vs caster

    2 succeed--checked

    2 fail--giant collision (x2 damage)

    1 fail/one succeed--flung/checked, both take damage

    any impact causes 1d4 rounds worth of 'stunned' unless fort save is made.
    Last edited by Stycotl; 2008-02-01 at 07:17 PM.
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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    I don't really have a critique, I'm afraid, but I love this spell! It's great, and I fully intend to use it when I finally find a DM who doesn't hate high-level wizards.

    Which does bring up the point: a seventh level what spell exactly? Sorceror/Wizard only? Or maybe Druid too?

    Ooh, suggestion! How's this: The targets may make an initial Reflex save to avoid the effect, with a penalty on the save equal to 1/2 the caster's ranks (rounded down) in Knowledge (Arcana).
    That way you can incorporate both the save and the knowledge of the caster.

    Thanks, Shades of Gray, for the avatar!

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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai-Palin View Post
    I don't really have a critique, I'm afraid, but I love this spell! It's great, and I fully intend to use it when I finally find a DM who doesn't hate high-level wizards.

    Which does bring up the point: a seventh level what spell exactly? Sorceror/Wizard only? Or maybe Druid too?

    Ooh, suggestion! How's this: The targets may make an initial Reflex save to avoid the effect, with a penalty on the save equal to 1/2 the caster's ranks (rounded down) in Knowledge (Arcana).
    That way you can incorporate both the save and the knowledge of the caster.
    AH! forgot to write wiz/sor 7. my bad.

    thanks for the love.

    hmmm, i am considering your save idea. let me get back to you on that. it did loosen me up a bit on my no-prededent fear. muchas gracias, shishnarfne and kai-palin.

    aaron out.
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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    changed some things after a little testing. changes are bolded.

    note the change to stun duration and save effect: used to be save or stunned 1d rounds. the reasoning behind that was having to put a damage cap on the impact, for balance purposes. however, that damage cap severly reduced the usefulness of this as a 7th level spell, and made the effect underpowered. tell me what you think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    Evulsive Decimation
    Evocation [Force]
    Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 7
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: Standard Action
    Range: Medium
    Target: Two targets no further apart than 5 feet/level from each other
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: Special
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    The caster causes an elastic property within the matter between two points to suddenly contract like a giant elastic band, bringing them together with crushing force. The two targets can be objects or creatures, mobile or immobile, secured or rooted to the ground, or not. This connection does not have to be horizontal; the caster could connect a flying creature to the ground, the base of a tree to the top of a nearby building, or even a charging foe to a point in the sky above it.

    The effect becomes a three-way bullrush, where both targets at the extremes of the spell resist against the force of the elastic energy that is jerking them together. Both creatures and objects roll to resist the bullrush, taking feats, size, and other factors into account as normal. The caster also rolls to initiate the bullrush, though he uses a caster level check as his roll, and adds both his primary spellcasting ability modifier, and a +1 competence bonus/5 ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering).

    Both targets succeed at their bullrush roll: They both have their movement checked for one round, but suffer no other effects.

    Both targets fail at their bullrush roll: They are wrenched into the exact middle of the spell effect, colliding with tremendous force. Each one takes two times the amount of falling damage (15d6 maximum) that they would have taken if they had fallen the same distance, and then falls prone to the ground.

    Only one target fails its bullrush roll: It is jerked all the way across the distance to the other target, taking falling damage as if it had fallen the same distance (10d6 maximum), and then falls prone to the ground. The other target, the one that resisted the bullrush, has its movement checked for one round, and must succeed at a Fortitude save or take the same damage and fall prone. Success halves the damage and keeps it upright.

    If one of the targets was a point in space (in the sky, down in a chasm, etc), then the other target, if it fails to resist the bullrush, is flung past that point with no impact, but continues in that direction for another 10 feet per two caster levels (in effect multiplying the distance traveled by 1.5) before it crashes to the ground (or begins free-falling if airborne).

    Any airborne creature that is successfully flung to the ground with this spell takes the appropriate falling damage, multiplied by 1.5 (15d6 maximum).

    In any case of impact, take into account extra damage from armor spikes, energy effects, spiked pits, and other factors that are affecting one or more of the two targets. Also, in any case of an impact, both targets must roll a successful Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d4+2 rounds. A successful save still stuns the creature for one round.

    This spell is ineffective if there is any corporeal effect between the two targets during the casting of this spell.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    Y'know, the way this spell works, it'd be interesting to see it put through some trials using one of Fax_Celestis' Mountains.

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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    Love the idea, provides for some fun mental images. However, if I were to use it I would change the mechanics a little.

    I would remove the damage cap. Fall damage caps at 20d6 naturally, and that's fine for a 7th level spell. Not that you have to, but:

    I would change the whole bull rush thing to a Will save (negates), and I would make this more of a damage spell, because I like those.

    I would make the casting time 2 rounds. On the first round, the creatures must each make a Will save or be pushed 5 ft./level away from each other.

    On the second round, I would make it so if one creatures fails its (additional) Will save while the other doesn't, both creatures take full damage as one hits into the other. This is just a cool way of turning the bad guy's underlings against him, and when I first saw the spell I thought that was how it worked, and thought it was awesome. If both fail the save, they meet in the middle, and are stunned for 1 round, taking no extra damage.

    Just my interpretation, yours is good too

    Hmm... on a very related note, this seems to be an existing function of telekinesis, though the damage is capped at 1d6. Perhaps this would best be made into an upgraded form of telekinesis, which has this as its Violent Thrust option?

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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    gaelen: thanks for providing the link. that is pretty cool. fax makes some good stuff. i think that one of fax's mountains would stand more than a chance of defeating this spell.

    flying: i do like the idea of removing the damage cap. but it seemed overpowered in the earlier version. admittedly though, i was forgetting about cone of cold's damage dice, and instead comparing it to horrid wilting, which i was remembering as a 9th level spell. that's what happens when i whip it up without actually checking first. i think i will consider (again) capping it at 20d6, though the stun duration will have to drop again. even if it does, i think i will keep the one round stun minimum.

    i am glad you like the idea. i too like telekinesis. however, i see this spell as fulfilling a different niche. redundant and related as it may be, it still serves two major roles, and maybe more off the top of my head.

    first, it is a telekinesis variant, which is one of the focuses of an npc i control (yes, the same one from the compressive wave thread), giving him a way to use telekinesis-like powers that do respectable damage and effects.

    second, it was designed specifically to utilize bullrush rules. it does make it weaker against large creatures, but i figured that could be evened out by using a caster level check instead of a strength check. i am going to keep the bullrush mechanic, despite complexity, although i am open to suggestions on how to make it more fluid.

    also, about the bullrush ruling: i ended up using knowledge (architect and engineer) as the skill that gives bonuses to the caster's roll, but i don't like it. in my campaign, he uses knowledge (physical science) as the related skill, however that skill doesn't exist in the books, so i'm improvising. the other consideration was know (arcana), but that is not even related. if anyone has any suggestions on how to smooth this out, let me know.

    thanks for the feedback. aaron out.
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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    I love this spell!
    But I also think it's a bit overpowered. In order to reliably make a DC 10+14+6+2 bullrush check you've have to have Str 30 and be Garguantan at CR 14! If you fail this impossible save you're out of the fight (1d4+2 rounds of stunning) or pretty much dead (1 round of stunning).
    This screws anything medium sized and all spellcasting/spelllike monsters.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    I love it!

    It caters to my feel for over complicated spells with extensive possible outcomes...that's all I ever make.

    I can't really tell the balance, but this is really fun. I can really see a lot of chaos with something using it repeatedly.

    Hmm...this is an interesting idea...I think that next year I am going to stat up a creature, a physics monster, or possibly even class, or both, which manipulates stuff in ways like this.

    Next year because that's when I'll be taking AP physics.

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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    Quote Originally Posted by GoC View Post
    I love this spell!
    But I also think it's a bit overpowered. In order to reliably make a DC 10+14+6+2 bullrush check you've have to have Str 30 and be Garguantan at CR 14! If you fail this impossible save you're out of the fight (1d4+2 rounds of stunning) or pretty much dead (1 round of stunning).
    This screws anything medium sized and all spellcasting/spelllike monsters.
    i am probably going to drop the stun duration, raise the damage cap, and then tinker with the caster's bullrush roll still. i was thinking earlier that i should just get rid of the whole 'knowledge (arch&eng) all together, as caster level check is similar in power to bab roll, as opposed to a mere strength check. not very balanced. plus, that would get rid of the whole skill rank bonus thing, which was bugging me.

    thanks for the input.

    icewalker, that sounds like a cool idea. i am glad you like it. i will probably be tinkering with more physics-related stuff as i go on. probably some astronomy later as well. we'll see.
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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    after a bit of playtesting, i did end up nerfing the caster's modifiers to the bullrush. i don't know why it didn't make sense to me earlier. i also got rid of the spell resistance application to this spell, especially since it doesn't directly affect the targets, but the space that the targets occupy, and the space in between.
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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    Just one question. Could you treat each victim as a falling object? A halfling crashing into a giant isn't going to cause as much damage to the giant as it will the halfling.

    Debby

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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    Man, we can have some interesting use for this.

    Party fought a giant.

    The Human bard yells at the wizard.

    "Halfling Launcher Maneuver Alpha Two!"

    "No! Not again!" said the halfling rogue as he an invisible rubber band launches him into the giant head.

    Please, please make the mechanic for halfling launcher maneuver.
    Last edited by Fri; 2008-09-05 at 11:15 AM.
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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    Sounds like a readied action for a charge on the halfling's part... maybe double damage if the halfling has the right feat, or the GM is just feeling especially generous.
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    Default Re: Giant Rubberband of Destruction (spell)

    well, as far as i am concerned, the giant would suffer the same damage as the halfling. whether or not both of them make their bull rush check, the halfling is going to be flung at a much higher speed than the giant, because it is of smaller mass, and is presumably the one that would fail its check first.

    now, imagine being a giant that was just shot by a halfling-sized bullet traveling at ridiculous velocities. that could definitely leave a mark.

    and if it seems more logical that the giant be hardly affected, just hope that it makes its saving throw, so long as it made its bull rush check. if it saves, then it only takes half damage, and is stunned for only one round.

    if the dm needs a more aggressive houserule for the giant not taking as much damage, than he/she is certainly encouraged to do so. but i think that this system works for the majority of cases.

    now, we mentioned a halfling, but try imagining a pixie or a housecat. biological railgun ammunition, anyone?

    i would houserule a lessening of damage were someone to try to railgun a mosquito or dragonfly into another, larger creature. such insignificant mass would hardly do anything at at all at less than the atmospheric entry speed of a meteorite.

    the mechanics of the halfling launcher are already built in to the spell. attach halfling to giant. halfling most likely fails bull rush. giant probably makes bull rush, in which case he also stands a good chance to make the save, but would still take 1/2 damage, and one round of stunning (all in all, not too bad). halfling on the other hand, unless he had high levels of barbarian hit dice, is a smear of ground beef stuck half-way through the giant's plate armor, and isn't going to be doing anything else until rezz'ed by a friendly cleric.

    strategy for this spell: don't connect two creatures or objects that you think can make their bull rush checks. connect either two creatures that you are confident will fail, or connect one creature that you are confident that will fail, with another that you are either not sure, or think will succeed. even if it succeeds, so long as the other fails, this one is taking damage--barring mettle of course.
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    Campaigns
    Watchtower––Volume III (running since 2008)

    Announcer— “Your cable television is experiencing difficulties. Please do not panic. Resist the temptation to read or talk to loved ones. Do not attempt sexual relations, as years of TV radiation have left your genitals withered and useless.”

    Wiggum, checking— “Well I'll be damned.”

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