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Thread: Wish by the RAW
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2008-02-02, 12:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Wish by the RAW
OK. In a highpowered game I am submitting a character for the question of Wish abuse came up (in regards to getting it as an SLA or SU ability and getting around the XP cost). The DM took the position that by the RAW any wish can be twisted or DM fiated, not just those that aren't one of the listed effects.
Whether or not wish abuse is a good thing that should be allowed isn't up for debate here (depends entirely on the game, the players, and the DM).
I want to know how common the DM's interpretation is. Customer Service agrees with my interpretation and so does everyone I've talked to about it besides the DM.
Originally Posted by SRD on Wish
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2008-02-02, 12:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
Aside from also limiting the magic items created to a 25,000gp max, I use it as written. The way I understand it, only wishes that try to do create effects greater then those listed would have a chance of being perverted.
Will be edited by Ryuuk : Sometime in the future.
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2008-02-02, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
Your DM has poor reading comprehension. However, he is the DM, and, in his campaign world, wishes may happen to be very dangerous.
To answer your question, I do exactly what the rules allow, if I allow Wish for that particular setting.Last edited by Ominous; 2008-02-02 at 12:20 AM.
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2008-02-02, 12:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
Originally Posted by SRD on Wish
If someone had it as a 1/day ability? Hey, everyone just got +1 to all their stats, costs nothing but time. 2/day? 2/week (since they could cast both is succession), +2.
Any workaround that removes the xp cost, making it just a 9th level spell, would, in my opinion, be deserving of a houserule forcing every use of it to risk the danger normally associated wih only the greater effects. However, this is not in RAW, though neither is gaining wish as a SLA or SU ability, I believe.
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2008-02-02, 12:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
I base it entirely on the source of the wish.
A wish cast by the character is likely to conform to their desires in most respects.
A wish cast by an item will take the "least power required" literal meaning... it won't try to actively hurt you, but it won't try to interpret things helpfully, either.
A wish cast by a helpful entity (as a reward, for example), will conform to your desires as that creature understands them.
A wish cast by a compelled entity will conform to the literal requirements, but that's it... the entity fulfilling it will do what it can to pervert the intent.
RAW, I would agree with you, and would use those examples as guideline of reasonable (I also apply the gp limit to magic items) requests of wishes.The Cranky Gamer
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2008-02-02, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
RAW, the listed wishes aren't supposed to be twisted, as far as I can tell. Keep in mind, though, that if the DM says they are, they are.
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2008-02-02, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
The wish spell involves the caster altering reality to suit their whims, and thus a wish will usually follow the spirit of the wisher, assuming the wisher is the one who cast the spell.
When casting wish, you don't need to write out a legal document. The only time your wish should backfire is when you wish for something that is obviously a very bad idea (eg. eternal life = temporal stasis). If the wish can be accomplished within the preset bounds (say by emulating a spell) it will do so, if it cannot, the DM decides if the wish is possible for a 9th level spell, if it is, it happens, if not, the wish either a)tries to fulfill the wish as best as possible(a wish for the most powerful magic sword ever may still get you a magic sword, just not the most powerful one), or b)simply fails.
Items would, as stated above, follow the path of least resistance. They would have some ability to identify the intent of the wish (and would never fail if it was for one of the listed things in the wish entry), but would otherwise try to do what the wisher wanted in the way that affects the least number of people the smallest amount. Remember, as a general rule, magic items don't have a sense of humor or irony, they won't try to make a fool out of your or prevert your wish(unless specifically designed to, eg the monkey's paw), nor should they be hopelessly literal, they are designed to help the wielder. They simple do what the wielder says to the best of their ability.
When dealing with other, wish-casting beings, however, all bets are off. They cast the wish, not you, and while they may be obligated to follow the wording of your wish, they are the ones who choose how they follow the wording. When getting a wish from an efreet, break out the profession(lawyer) skill(not that they wouldn't have more ranks then you).
Wish is the ultimate DM's fiat spell, it has a list of what is can defiantly do, everything else is up to the DM. It's balancing factor is that it costs a ton of XP, a quarter of the amount neccesary to go from level 20 to 21 in fact."Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."
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2008-02-02, 12:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
And the DM saying it would be him using Rule 0. Let's just be clear. I wouldn't allow half the stuff the DM is allowing me to get away with if I was DMing. And if the DM wants to Rule 0 that supernatural wish's have an XP cost that is ok with me. And if he wants to Rule 0 that any wish can be twisted at any time just because he feels like it, thats ok as well. My problem is with the DM saying that by RAW he can twist any wish, including ones used for listed effects like Inherent bonuses to a stat.
Last edited by Emperor Tippy; 2008-02-02 at 12:53 AM.
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2008-02-02, 12:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
Outside of the clearly defined options of Wish, I would generally twist a poorly worded Wish unless you were able to really lock down what you mean with something like *successful* Truenaming.
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2008-02-02, 01:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
And in that he is incorrect.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)
This is the only part of the RAW that mentions Wish perversions, and it clearly refers to doing something besides what is listed. By Rule 0, he's right. By the RAW for Wish, he's wrong. No discussion needed.Last edited by Swordguy; 2008-02-02 at 01:26 AM.
Originally Posted by Dervag
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2008-02-02, 01:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
Do the following:
Ask him to point out where in wish it says he can pervert it.
He will then point out the clause.
The point out to him that clause only applies if you are using an effect not listed. If you are using an effect listed, then that clause doesn't apply, therefore there is no basis for perverting wish.
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2008-02-02, 01:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
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2008-02-02, 02:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
Originally Posted by Dervag
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2008-02-02, 02:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
I think he should read the spell in the PHB or the SRD again which is pretty clear and decide if he wants it in his game. He's kicked the ball back to you. You can have the ability in his game but only if he can twist it as desired since you said he lets you get away with stuff in his game he probably wants rule 0 as his insurance policy because Wish as written is hard to manage in game particularly with a PC who can cast them daily without experience point cost.
Sounds pretty cool that he is willing to let you bring it into his game since it really places a burden on him as the DM for finding challenges for the PCs he is probably just envisioning the nightmares you could be giving him with the ability if he can't twist it at will in the campaign. You create no experience magic items up to 25,000 gp and he curses them so no instant wealth machine or tailored equipment for each encounter in game.
Sounds like the Runesmith PRC. Another way to do it is to pick up the Luck domain for No Experience Arcane Miracles 2/Day with High Arcana and the Arcane Disciple feat Luck domain with a high level arcane caster so no making magic items without the experience points forfeited by the PC mostly just spell duplication.
Would you and the DM be amenable to using Limited Wish in the campaign as written as a compromise since it is a bit more toned down?Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2008-02-02 at 02:48 AM.
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2008-02-02, 02:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
For this game the DM is just saying that he will be twisting the wishes. And I don't really feel like going and typing up multi page legal documents to lock down my wish(s) exactly. So I just won't be using it.
But this is the first time I've ever had anyone say that by RAW the DM can twist wishes used for the listed effects when cast by the player. Oh if you brow beat a Pit Fiend into giving you a wish one can expect it to be twisted as the Pit Fiend attempts to word it in such a way so as to have negative consequences. But when the PC is the one using the wish, well it's a new one for me.
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I was planning on shapechanging into a Zodar (Fiend Folio) which has 1/year wish as an SU ability and wishing for a Tome of Clear Thoughts +5.
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2008-02-02, 02:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
Tome of Clear Thought +5 is a 137,500 gp magic items that basically take 5 Wishes to make.
Although there may be a few games where a DM wouldn't twist that Wish which excedes the capability of a standard Wish and is by default a greater Wish effect most DMs would IMO bringing along the Lich and Vampire cohorts or other guardian of the Tome or bring the PC to the location of the Tome usually with their gear as per the transportation effect of the Wish.......
I had a DM who said it was common Wish lore not to shapechange into a Zodar to use the Wish ability....More Zodars, Misfortune....
The best way to get Wishes in game IMO is the Thaumaturgist PRC -1 with the Planar Ally spell and paying a Efreeti or Noble Djinni both 10HD for the short term service with a Cleric or an Arcane caster with the Arcane Disciple feat Summoning domain for minimal experience cost and the service fee at L11 or L12+.Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2008-02-02 at 03:03 AM.
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2008-02-02, 03:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
It doesn't exceed the capabilities of a standard wish. It's creating a single magic item, which has no GP limit attached. And even if you rule that you can just grab the inherent bonuses from wishing them on yourself or another.
The best way to get free wishes is Shapechange into a Zodar. It is as if you cast the wish in every respect except no XP or material cost.
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2008-02-02, 03:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
Originally Posted by Dervag
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2008-02-02, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
By RAW, the spell is called "Wish". And wishes never come out exactly like you wanted them. If it were called "Superior Magical Effect" by RAW, then the effects would be much more likely to be what you wanted them.
Also: RAW is unclear about which wishes are perverted.
Parenthetical statements are assumed to be related to the sentence before, not necessarily to be only related to the sentence before. For example, compare this entry to one on how to wake up trolls:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)
You may try to wake up a troll with a stick, but doing so is dangerous. (The troll may want to eat you.)
Well, it might be saying that the troll might want to eat you, but only if you wake it up with a stick. Or it might be saying that all trolls might want to eat you, and that therefore a stick is a particularly dangerous way to wake one up.
It is similarly entirely plausible that all wishes may pervert your intent (the fact that the spell is titled "Wish" implies this to certain people) - and that therefore producing greater effects than these is a particularly dangerous idea.
Yeah, so by RAW, RAI, and Rule 0, the DM's rule is a plausible one. The fact that he's told you this *before* you started the game means you can't complain - just don't use wishes if this bothers you.
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2008-02-02, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
Asking for the creation of a magical item which itself exceeds the capabilities of a Wish is begging for a wish perversion. Why would the Wish be able to create anything that could do something the Wish itself could not? (Edit: Otherwise, why not just ask for a +20 epic weapon, sell it, and buy six tomes with the cash?)
Now what the Wish could definitely do, is cast a Greater Teleport to get you that Tome.Last edited by Indon; 2008-02-02 at 11:44 AM.
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2008-02-02, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
By RAW its legal, the gp limit being only applied to mundane objects and a suppossedly greater xp cost for creating any level of magic item. Not how I'd write it but oh well.
And to the OP, your DM is being overly harsh on this one. Wish is suppossed to be the most powerful non-epic-casting spell in existance, it drains five thousand xp and he wants to automatically screw all uses? Why then would any wizard have come up with it? If it always goes wrong in some way no matter how you word it then it would have either been forgotten and passed over for someting better or they'd have kept it in R&D until they figured it out. DnD doesn't have a magic system which includes failure chances and effect distortions except under special situations. That being said they're the DM so there's not a whole lot to do.Give them bread and circusses and the plebs wont rise against you. Give adventurers dungeons and trapped chests and they won't waste time looking to ransack your home and kill your wife.
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2008-02-02, 12:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
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2008-02-02, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
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2008-02-02, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
Yes it does excede the capability of the standard Wish:
* Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
It takes 5 Level 9 Sorcerer or Wizard arcane Wishes or divine Greater Miracles to make a +5 Tome of Thought or 5 Charge Luckblade and as a Zodar you get 1 Wish that will create a magic item or duplicate a single spell effect up to level 8 so even the spelllike/supernatural experience cost side stepping mechanic shouldn't work.
The best way to get free Wishes depends on your campaign. I had a DM who said the Zodar free Wish trick only worked 1/year regardless of how often you shapechanged into a Zodar because the PC was the Zodar. Any PC who used the Pit Fiend trick had a choice of becoming LE (Atone the first time) or Damned to the 9 Hells on the spot in a DM timeout.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...ofClearThoughtLast edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2008-02-02 at 03:42 PM.
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2008-02-02, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
I agree. Any being that does not normally have access to a wish as an SLA and normally has to pay an xp cost would essentially be adding 'without the xp cost' to any of those wishes. While the more common ones shouldn't cause too much of a problem, I should think your character would have to word his wishes carefully.
The DM can always make houserules to address potentially game-breaking situations. OP, pulling the 'everyone else agrees with me, DM, so you're wrong' card is very very poor form. He may know full well how the rules are written and disagree with them. Personally, I'd just limit whatever ability it is that allows you to get wish as an SLA since it seems there'd be less of an argument there.
Ah, but your question was about how common it is... Well, I recall in 2nd edition that it was in fact the case that all wishes were up to the DMs interpretation with the warning that the bigger the wish, the bigger the potential screw-up. As I haver a bit of nostalgia for the olden days, I alter wishes slightly as well. In the games I DM for instance, you must always word your wish in an appropriate manner. You may specify a desired effect, but it's the wording that counts. If the desired effect and wording falls in line with the normal abilities of a wish, it's usually a non-issue. Things may not work out EXACTLY as you'd intended, but ultimately you'll still get the same effect.On DMPCs: "Remember, nothing will spice up your campaign quicker than long descriptions of NPC’s doing spectacular stuff while the players sit around and watch." -Shamus Young, DM of the Rings
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2008-02-02, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
But you tell your players this before the game starts, correct?
I personally have no problem with houserules and I have a ton I use in the games I run. Stopping Wish abuse is one of the things I have houseruled.
But I don't say "Well I may or may not twist any wish no matter what it is for, no matter the circumstances because I feel like it. And the RAW supports me on this.". I have ruled that I can interpret any wish however I feel like before (the game had to do with magic being out of wack and weird things happening with spells) but I told the players and made no attempt to say it was RAW.
That's my real question. How many people believe that the RAW for Wish (and check the PHB, the SRD omits a few important sentences, page 302) allows the DM to twist any wish, no matter what it is for?
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2008-02-02, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
I'm not disagreeing you, but none of this is RAW. If a wish cast by an item is used to go beyond the normal limits, nowhere does it say that is HAS to fail or that it HAS to only partially grant the wish. As a DM, I usually go for the 'literal interpretation'. Eg: Wishing for the most powerful sword in the world will bring it to you, but the people with the most powerful items in the world tend to have ways of tracking them down.
On DMPCs: "Remember, nothing will spice up your campaign quicker than long descriptions of NPC’s doing spectacular stuff while the players sit around and watch." -Shamus Young, DM of the Rings
Divide By Zero: Irreverent Fool, you are my hero.
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2008-02-02, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
It sounds like the your DM told you before the game started as well.
I'm curious what method you are using to get wish as a spell-like ability. Could you list your sources?
While I disagree with your adversarial approach to this... No, it does not say in the RAW that any wish can be twisted by the DM and nobody thinks there's any sentences omitted. Your new question answers itself. Ask your DM that same question. See how it goes.
You have a few options:
- Take something less (or more) cheesy than wish as a SLA
- Accept your DM's ruling
- Don't play in the gameOn DMPCs: "Remember, nothing will spice up your campaign quicker than long descriptions of NPC’s doing spectacular stuff while the players sit around and watch." -Shamus Young, DM of the Rings
Divide By Zero: Irreverent Fool, you are my hero.
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2008-02-02, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
I got the "I may or may not twist wishes" opinion after a 3 page debate and it was pulling teeth to get that much out of him.
I'm curious what method you are using to get wish as a spell-like ability. Could you list your sources?
Someone else planned on gating in a Solar.
Another was going to abuse dwemerkeeper.
Another was goign to gate in Noble Dijinni.
While I disagree with your adversarial approach to this... No, it does not say in the RAW that any wish can be twisted by the DM and nobody thinks there's any sentences omitted.
Originally Posted by SRD on Wish
[suote=PHB page 302 on Wish]You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. Such a wish gives the DM the opportunity to fulfill your request without fulfilling it completely. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) For example, wishing for a staff of the magi might get you instantly transported to the presence of the staff's current owner. Wishing to be immortal could get you imprisoned in a hidden extradimensional space (as by an imprisonment spell) where you could "live" indefinitely.[/quote]
The PHB is much clearer.
Your new question answers itself. Ask your DM that same question. See how it goes.
You have a few options:
- Take something less (or more) cheesy than wish as a SLA
- Accept your DM's ruling
- Don't play in the game
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2008-02-02, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wish by the RAW
When I said the bit about it not allowing any wish to be twisted by the DM, I meant that it doesn't let ANY wish be twisted by the DM, just the ones it specifically states.
On DMPCs: "Remember, nothing will spice up your campaign quicker than long descriptions of NPC’s doing spectacular stuff while the players sit around and watch." -Shamus Young, DM of the Rings
Divide By Zero: Irreverent Fool, you are my hero.