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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Concerning 'Healbots'

    Okay, I've heard the term tossed around, usually meaning a cleric who does nothing but heal and cure status effects. No one wants to play one. They're seen as a necessary evil.

    My only wonder is why anyone would so horridly limit themselves?

    Come on, even a base Core cleric has SO many more things in their arsenal.

    2nd level spells, starting at 3rd level:

    Hold Person: Save or Die. Works on things higher than 4hd, but humanoids only. This will stop your charging barbarians and your flanking rogues dead in their tracks. This is a good spell all throughout your career, although Hold Monster works on more things.

    Silence: Shut Up you NPC Caster. Pop this off in the area with an opponent caster and watch him whimper just before your meat shield runs his greataxe through the poor weakling's head. Seriously, don't bother targeting it, anything you want to silence will have a high Will save. Just pop it in the area and let your peoples flank around and keep him boxed in. A quick Web from your local friendly Wizard also helps keep it in place.

    3rd level psells, starting at 5th level:

    Blindness: Fort Save or Screwed. No, really, I mean totally screwed. The party rogue (who should have +3d6 SA by this time) will get free sneak attacks on him, and he's got a 50% miss chance on EVERYONE. Best of all, this works on just about anything Hold Person won't. Subtypes which have poor Will saves include Aberations, Monsterous Humanoids, and Undead (nothing says this can't work on undead either).

    Bestow Curse: Need I say more? Will Save or Screwed. If it has a high Fort save, it generally has a low Will save. -6 to a stat? How about you hit an Animal with that on their Int? Drooling vegetable, insta-kill on many Dinosaurs too. Or, if you can't think of anything better to do, either make them a bumbling bufoon (-4 on ALL checks), or just slap them with a 50% chance of having NO action on any given turn.

    Searing Light. RTA, no save, and does damage to most things. Of course, it does a lot MORE damage to undead, particularly the incorporeal types that really hate light which are so dangerous.

    And that's just the low-level stuff...

    In short, you can be a Healbot... AND still be just as deadly as any Batman Wizard, and a hell of a lot more useful to your party in the process.

    Some suggested ideas:

    Spontanious Domain (PhB II alternate class feature) Healing domain. Yea, sounds redundant, right? Until you realize Heal is in the Healing Domain... and so is Regenerate.

    For Good Clerics:

    Mem all these nasty Save or SUck/Save or Die spells, with a few fix-its. If you need 'em for healing, fine. If you don't, your opponents are gonna have a LOT to worry about.

    For Evil Clerics:

    If you can, get the Healing Domain. Get the feat Spontanious Domain to blow turn attempts to spontaniously cast from your healing domain. Congratulations, you now spontaniously do both cure AND inflict.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    The ability of the Cleric to totally dominate the game is a well documented phenomenon (do a Google search for "CoDzilla").

    The reason people "limit" themselves to healing is because they're more interested in helping other people enjoy themselves than in throwing their weight around.

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Funny, I almost never hear about healbots...I hear about CoDzillia though.

    I thought it was generally accepted fact that not only are clerics not healbots, but they're better at combat than fighters or pretty much every other melee class besides druids?

    Seriously, some wands and scrolls will generally cover 90% of the healing needed to keep a party alive if a cleric uses his spells to destroy the opposition instead.
    Last edited by Nu; 2008-02-05 at 02:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    I think some players may be concerned with not being able to heal themselves or their allies if they use up all of their spellslots on debuffs (admittedly, if enemies are debuffed, they won't be able to cause as much damage anyway).
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    I think the healbots are a left over from previous editions were clerics weren't quite as good.
    Last edited by Fenix_of_Doom; 2008-02-05 at 02:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Some n00bs play healbots because they don't realize the efficiency of what you said. They buff and heal, nothing else, because when looking at the spell list and the cleric fluff, thats what it seems like they should do. The wis of the character is usually greater than that of the player.

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Most D&D players online are more than aware of how good clerics can be, otherwise it would be called Dzilla, and that doesn't roll off the tongue all that well.

    But some groups don't think of clerics that way. They think the cleric isn't casting a Hold Person, he's wasting a Cure Moderate Wounds. I've seen clerics pressured into staying at the back, waiting for a comrade to be injured so he can run forward and heal them up.

    It's a waste of their abilities, but some people can't see beyond the "healbot" label.
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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    I find it so funny how every month or two somone either reinvents CoDzilla or Batman.

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    When most people say 'healbot', they're stating it in a negative light.

    For example, people frequently mention the removal of a healbot when magic items that make it easier to heal up show up.

    The reason people "limit" themselves to healing is because they're more interested in helping other people enjoy themselves than in throwing their weight around.
    That may actually be true for some people. Personally, I love playing support units, and I hate playing a healbot - spending every single round using healing spells gets very boring very quickly.
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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post



    Bestow Curse: Need I say more? Will Save or Screwed. If it has a high Fort save, it generally has a low Will save. -6 to a stat? How about you hit an Animal with that on their Int? Drooling vegetable, insta-kill on many Dinosaurs too. Or, if you can't think of anything better to do, either make them a bumbling bufoon (-4 on ALL checks), or just slap them with a 50% chance of having NO action on any given turn.
    The penalty can't go below 1.
    If you it to Con, the benefit is -3 hp/HD. Also saves.
    The 50% thing is sweet due to permanent.

    But yes, I think most of these forums gets idea that Clerics do not equal Healbots unless the player wants them to (a few do).

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Hemmens View Post
    The reason people "limit" themselves to healing is because they're more interested in helping other people enjoy themselves than in throwing their weight around.
    Even for that, you're better off buffing your party than just waiting for them to get hurt and then fixing it.

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Not quite as effective as batman, but yes, pretty good. Spells are slightly worse, on the whole (glitterdust > blindness for groups/spell level)

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    3rd edition, more than 2nd, has this videogame mentality that you must not "wast actions" doing anything other than trying to defeat the enemy (like this kid in one of my friend's campaigns, that tried to climb down the stairs to reach the battle underground, while pulling out his weapon, and drinking a potion of cure. He didn't want to waste time).
    That's why people are always finding ways to don't wast time casting spells, and why it seems like people'll be able to cast several spells (or have several active) at once in 4th edition, and why the sorcerer is considered weak compared to the wizard, when he has access to the same spells (the sorcerer is "slow", therefore he is bad).

    That said, casting healing, or any kind of buff to someone else than you, is considered a waste of an action, that you could be using to either uber buff yourself, or "kill the enemy dead" before it has another chance to act.

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    I have a friend who always play healbots. It's really nice to have someone who can cast Quickened Maximised Empowered Cure Critical Wounds and Heal during the same round, you know.

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    i like healbots. they do tons of damage if you think about it, any healed ally is one that would otherwise do no damage, thus you are the cause of a significant amount of damage. a +2 damage buff means your doing 2 damage every time they hit! and a buff that lets them hit when they normally couldn't? well, i think you catch my drift.

    my group usually plays very high offense builds, whoever the "healbot" is is the shield.
    Last edited by thubby; 2008-02-05 at 07:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    I played multiply healbots before then, went on Internet found CoDzilla, bought complete divine, read it took divine quicken and now quicken a divine power and attack better than the fighter But its nice to have a healbot at low levels when 5 points a damage is major damage.
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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Even if you started out your build as a healbot, you can still be ridiculously powerful... against undead.

    And you get the added fun of smirking at the rogue as you do it! "Aww, your precision damage isn't working? Let me take care of this why don't you?"
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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    I played a Cleric for a while and my group forced me to be a healbot. Finally I told them to shove it, then I maximized my AC and waded into battle casting all my amazing touch spells.

    So yes, some groups try to make their cleric be a healbot.

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    2nd edition healbots were just as bad if all sources were allowed too! The only real difference is that there were no Metamagic feats, hence no real way to cast more than once in a round, except one spell in particular. There was a 6th level spell that copied your next spell and cast it again the next round without using up your actions. It was either in the Tome of Magic or the Prayers from the Faithful Forgotten Realms supplement (one of the last 2e books printed).

    When I joined my 2nd group they had to talk me into being the cleric. Up to that point, my first group used them as healbots, so that's how I entered the new campaign. Imagine if you will, a 5th level (started level 5 but 0xp, I wanted to earn the levels but not have 8hp to start) naked dwarven refugee of slavery from a bunch of Orogs (4hd giant kin IIRC). He was trapped in a dungeon for a year and rescued by the group (cheap and easy intro to the party) and had nothing but a loin cloth, a table leg as an improvised club, and his class abilities as a 5th level Specialty Priest of St. Cuthbert. Beguiling was an awesome 2nd level spell equal to charm person/monster except you had a choice to smite it into them with a weapon. Spontaneous casting was granted but limited domains - and this was the real power! All the best stuff was covered except Creeping Doom, but that was moot since Cuthbert was only a Demi-God back then.

    Anyway, this seemingly unoffensive healbot charmed the crap out of the Orogs and made a meat-shield wall that made the party members jealous. I was able to heal them all, keep up buffs, and some offense to spare. Soon, the party meat-sacks decided they wanted to operate more like the smooth batallion I was charming and leading. Very soon the party engaged in meaningful party tactics and strategies. Everyone had a role and had a lot of fun. The moral of the story is that the Cleric can make the perfect glue to hold a party together. If done right, you can heal, buff, and commit some major offensive while everyone feels they are contributing. I miss the good old days before that group parted ways.
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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Quote Originally Posted by ladditude View Post
    So yes, some groups try to make their cleric be a healbot.
    I know how you feel Can I attack... NO you go heal...please... No you cant hit anything...Come on I have a +7 and if I cast divine favor I'll have a +9 same as you...And waste a cure spell...A first level one...So
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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Quote Originally Posted by Roderick_BR View Post
    3rd edition, more than 2nd, has this videogame mentality that you must not "wast actions" doing anything other than trying to defeat the enemy (like this kid in one of my friend's campaigns, that tried to climb down the stairs to reach the battle underground, while pulling out his weapon, and drinking a potion of cure. He didn't want to waste time).
    That's why people are always finding ways to don't wast time casting spells, and why it seems like people'll be able to cast several spells (or have several active) at once in 4th edition, and why the sorcerer is considered weak compared to the wizard, when he has access to the same spells (the sorcerer is "slow", therefore he is bad).
    It is generally considered to be wise to do your best kill your enemies before they can kill you, yes. And while I am not well-versed in real-life combat, I find it hard to believe that any fight to the death ever involves a "take your time, no rush" approach on the part of anyone. ("Be cautious" is different.) If anything, it's a lackadaisical approach to such engagements that would be exclusive to games.

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Unfortunately, many people (especially these days) develop this attitude that the only action worth taking is 'dealing damage.' Your character could be able to heal any wound, cure any disease, strengthen your allies, and even raise the dead...but if you can't do 50 damage in one round, you're USELESS!

    I like playing support characters, though, such as healers. Last time I played a cleric, I basically just kept the others alive. It worked out pretty well for me.

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    Unfortunately, many people (especially these days) develop this attitude that the only action worth taking is 'dealing damage.'
    [conditioned response]Dealing damage actually tends to be a subpar option for wizards.[/conditioned response]

    Generally, it's best to stop the bad guys from doing stuff, either by killing/debuffing them or warding your allies, because if you skip the opportunity to stop them in order to fix something they've already done, they might very well just cause the same problem all over again and then you'll just be back where you started, won't you? Of course, there are cases where this does not apply, e.g. if the evil cleric just cast his one copy of bestow curse on the Fighter.

    Heal is the quintessential "worth casting in combat" curative spell. It really is just that good.

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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    As they say, and ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

    If you heal the Fighter, nothing stops the monster from hitting them again and bringing you right back to square one (or worse). Sure, you'll probably win out eventually, but it's a remarkably inefficient strategy. Furthermore, you can heal just fine after a fight, so any healing spells cast during combat beyond the bare minimum to keep all the characters standing are essentially time wasted when you could have been preventing that damage in the first place.

    If you stop the baddies from hitting you, either with debuffs or enhanced beatings, you don't need so many heal spells afterwards.

    Lastly, and I can only speak for myself on this one, juggling Cure spells isn't my favorite thing to do.
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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Clerics were given decent combat abilities (in most editions) to counteract the "healbot" image. Ever played a JRPG on a console? They hold to a tradition that someone capable of casting healing spells is a being of peace and so therefore otherwise is COMPLETELY USELESS apart from healing and buffing the rest of the party, it sucks.

    The problem is, trying to counteract this by letting clerics wear good armor, have a good to-hit bonus, etc. -- and with the current edition, buff them even more with feats and stuff, especially if you allow certain abilities from certain splatbooks (there's a reason I run my games with very few supplements, and that book is one of them...), yes, they suddenly can do everything. It goes from making a cleric desirable to play to making the cleric the only thing people want to play. This can be rebalanced, of course, by reasonable players.... but the ability is there to make clerics insanely powerful.

    The problem there is then players of clerics don't want to "waste" their abilities healing their party mates, and with the healing abilities locked to just a few classes, that in turn sparks frustration in the group because suddenly when people in the party do get hurt, they have no way of helping themselves (unless the GM is very generous with potions, etc.).

    In the end, it all boils down to this--and this is true for every class under the sun--do you want to play a solo adventure, or do you want to play a cooperative game with your friends? If the former, sure, don't "waste" your healing abilities.

    If the latter, everyone--clerics, wizards, rogues--needs to learn how to support each other both in a fight and out of battle. That sometimes falls down to giving your buddy a Cure when you're the only one who has one.
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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Honestly, it would NOT be such a problem if healing people was easier. The 'mass' series of healing spells and the 'vigor' series both do a lot to help this, as they do not require you to:

    1. Keep track of how injured everyone looks (everyone giving you updates is a bad, bad idea when facing intelligent monsters, for reasons that should be obvious).
    2. If you're already in melee, cast the spell defensively so you don't get smacked (which carries a small but not inconsiderable risk of wasting the entire thing), and then weave your way around to where your injured friend is.
    3. Touch your friend to discharge the spell.
    4. Hope that the relatively small amount of damage you just healed will be enough to keep them going.

    Deathwatch would be an awesome solution to number 1, but good clerics can't even get it granted to them without houseruling.
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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix_of_Doom View Post
    I think the healbots are a left over from previous editions were clerics weren't quite as good.
    Which is patently false.
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    Default Re: Concerning 'Healbots'

    Quote Originally Posted by de-trick View Post
    I know how you feel Can I attack... NO you go heal...please... No you cant hit anything...Come on I have a +7 and if I cast divine favor I'll have a +9 same as you...And waste a cure spell...A first level one...So
    This sounds like a case wherein the party leader doesn't know much about tactics...

    How about pointing this out:

    Let's take an average level 5 party going up against a Basilisk (CR 5 encounter).

    The cleric could just stand back and cure, but that gaze attack is nasty at this level (not so much for meat shields, but deadly for rogues and casters). So instead, he drops a Bestow Curse on the thing, with it's abysmal Will save, and drops it's Cha by 6. Why Cha? That's what the save DC is based on. So now it's only a 10. Considering a poor Fort save for level 5 is only a +1 (plus Con mods), a 13 is pretty nasty. You need to roll a 12+ to make it. However, a 10 is easier to make, only a 9+ (plus con mods). At least now you've got better than 50% chance of being perma-screwed (since none of the party members at this level have access to anything that can cure petrification).

    Here's another scenario...

    Hobgoblin Barbarian charging at the main tank with a greataxe, Raging. This thing is going to be doing a LOT of damage if it hits, and a decent chance of hitting. So, drop a Hold Person on the bastard. His Will save stinks, and all that damage negated before it ever showed up.

    Or...

    Group of Kobolds with a Sorcerer in the back attacking party. Cleric could just sit back and heal the party, or he could drop a silence near the sorcerer and force him to move to be able to cast. Depending on terrain, that may be more difficult than simply stepping back 10'. Or dropping a Blindness spell on him. Now he's got serious problems because he doesn't know where anyone is. If he starts using AE, he could well end up hitting more of his own people than the party. RTA's now come with a 50% miss chance. Oh yea, and the party rogue can now get free sneak attacks off with his bow due to flat-footed.

    So yea, it's generally more efficent to be more 'proactive' than 'reactive' with your abilities.
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