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2008-02-05, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes
GESTALT BUILD CHALLENGE II: GREAT GISHES
Given the choice between spell and sword, I choose... both
"Gestalt Build Challenge" General Rules
Unless otherwise specified in the specific challenge, the following rules and guidelines are always in effect:
- Gestalt builds; 28-point buy; use any WOTC 3.5 product (including Dragon magazine) except where noted (only 3.0 products with an official upgrade to 3.5 are allowed)
- Make all builds to ECL 20. However, indicate the minimum ECL the build is playable at (the level at which all LA and/or racial HD, if applicable, are accounted for) and label any level that indicates a "power break" where the build has a significant jump in power level. Provide a detailed description of how the build operates.
- Any race with a listed level adjustment is allowed (no racial progressions from Savage Species, please). LA and HD each apply to one side of the gestalt; you may include LA and HD on the same side as each other, or on other sides. No LA buyoff. LA is applied before racial HD, which must be paid off before class levels on that side. Examples: LA X / RHD Y / class Z / ... // class A / ... -OR- LA X / class Y / ... // RHD A / class B / ...
- Multiclass at will, but see "voting".
- Up to two flaws are allowed, but see "voting".
- Templates are allowed, but see "voting".
- Voting: Upon the close of entries for each challenge, members of the forum may vote in-thread for the build that best represents the goals set out by the challenge. The voting criteria should consist of:
- Functionality: How well does the build do in its primary role as specified in the challenge?
- Weaknesses: Does the build have any glaring weaknesses that can be exploited?
- Playability: How much of the 1-20 level range can the build be played at and be effective?
- Creativity: Clever use of races, classes, and/or feats that may not be "typical" choices
- Cheese: Minimizing the number of cheese points
- Using flaws (1 point each)
- Ignoring mutliclassing penalties -- some DMs actually do enforce this in gestalt (1 point each)
- Single-level dips that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point each)
- Templates that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point per +1 LA)
- Attempting to use more than one PrC at any given level (1 point each)
- Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each)
- Over-dependence on items (1 point per indispensable item)
- Over-dependence on Diplomacy or Use Magic Device skills (1,000,000 points each)
"Great Gishes" Specific Rules
- Entries may be submitted and edited up until noon PST on Tuesday, Feb. 12, 2008.
- Challenge goals: Create the ultimate "gish" -- an arcanist who is also a potent warrior. Try to maximize both combat and magic capabilities.
- Please try to follow the format of the example (but also a legit entry) in the next post
- Entries:
- "Lion King"
- "Blade of Insight"
- "Mr. Shifty"
- "Cleric of the Earth Divine"
- "Psychic Warblade"
- "Snake on a Plane"
- "Iron Man"
- "Supermount Spell Sage"
- "Action!"
- "Raging Doom Caster"
- "Thunderer"
- "Micro Zorro"
- "Variousblade Incantagish" <== Winner!
- "Ownage Link"
- "Ursa Mager"
- "Gatling Secondus"
- "Mean, Green, Argent Machine"
- "Steroids"
- "Elven Heavy Artillery"
- "Faeries Die With Their Boots On"
- "Divine Chosen Avatar of Face-Smashing"
- "Poor Man Version 2"
- "Thunderer's Little Helper"
- "Metamage Knight"
- "Master of (Meta)magic"
- "Spellsquid"
Upcoming Challenges
- The Urge To Theurge -- mixing and matching magic (and psionic) disciplines
- Army Of One -- single-creature adventuring parties
- Invocation Vocation -- invokers need a little loving, too
- Double Dippers -- double arcane, double divine, or double psionic progressions
- more to come...
Previous Challenges
Last edited by Duke of URL; 2008-02-19 at 08:22 AM.
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2008-02-05, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
Name: "Lion King"
Build: Rakshasa HD 7 / Sorcerer 2 / Incantatrix 10 / Spellsword 1 // LA 7 / Paladin of Tyrrany 2 / Hexblade 10 / Marshal 1
Starting Ability Scores: STR 18, DEX 14, CON 18, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 22
Cheese Points: 1 (Multiclassing Penalty)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 8
Power Break: Level 19 -- Improved Metamagic plus Spell Thesis equals Empowered Chain Fell Drain Energy Drain Spells with 9th level slots
Rakshasa: {Rakshasa Traits}
1: Outsider 1 // LA 1: Iron Will
2: Outsider 2 // LA 2:
3: Outsider 3 // LA 3: Eschew Materials
4: Outsider 4 // LA 4:
5: Outsider 5 // LA 5:
6: Outsider 6 // LA 6: Empower Spell
7: Outsider 7 // LA 7:
8: Sorcerer 1 // Paladin of Tyrrany 1: {Metamagic Specialist, Aura Of Evil, Detect Good, Smite Good}
9: Sorcerer 2 // Paladin of Tyrrany 2: Extend Spell {Divine Grace, Deadly Touch}
10: Incantatrix 1 // Hexblade 1: Maximize Spell {Focused Studies, Hexblade Curse}
11: Incantatrix 2 // Hexblade 2: {Cooperative Metamagic, Arcane Resistance}
12: Incantatrix 3 // Hexblade 3: Chain Spell {Metamagic Effect, Mettle}
13: Incantatrix 4 // Hexblade 4: Fell Drain {Dark Companion}
14: Incantatrix 5 // Hexblade 5: Spell Penetration {Metamagic Spell Trigger}
15: Incantatrix 6 // Hexblade 6: Easy Metamagic: Chain Spell {Seize Concentration}
16: Incantatrix 7 // Hexblade 7: Quicken Spell {Instant Metamagic}
17: Incantatrix 8 // Hexblade 8: {Snatch Spell, Greater Hexblade Curse}
18: Incantatrix 9 // Hexblade 9: Arcane Thesis: Energy Drain
19: Incantatrix 10 // Hexblade 10: Fell Animate, Greater Spell Penetration {Improved Metamagic}
20: Spellsword 1 // Marshal 1: {Ignore ASF, Skill Focus: Diplomacy, Minor Aura}
Offense
On side #1, casts as a Sorcerer (Metamagaic Specialist variant) with caster level 20, including spells known and spells per day, plus the Incantatrix's metamagic overkill... 'nuff said. The Marshal dip gives CHA bonus to spell penetration. On side #2, full BAB all the way (level 20 gets the full BAB from side #1), use Dark Companion and Greater Hexblade Curse features to weaken opponents before unloading Sorcerer spells on them.
Defense
Good all around saves (Reflex lags the others), plus CHA to saves, plus CHA again to saves vs. spells and SLAs. Good HP. Mettle to negate "half" effects from Fortitude or Will saves.
Weaknesses
AC can be a problem, will need to invest in some low-level defensive spells, use items, and/or find good armors with low ASF. Mediocre damage dealer with melee weapons, need spells and items to improve combat prowess.
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2008-02-05, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Reykjavík, Iceland
- Gender
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
I'm assuming psionics are allowed? If so, you can expect a submission from me in a few days.
Also, how detailed does it have to be? Do I have to include every spell/power/manouvre known, for example?
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2008-02-05, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
I'm assuming psionics are allowed? If so, you can expect a submission from me in a few days.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2008-02-05, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
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- Reykjavík, Iceland
- Gender
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2008-02-05, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- The Land of Cleves
- Gender
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
Hmm, would something with full BAB and spell/psi progression be considered a "dual progression" PrC, for a million cheese points?
Also, how detailed does it have to be? Do I have to include every spell/power/manouvre known, for example?Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2008-02-05, 07:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
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- Maryland, USA
- Gender
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
Looks like divine magic is out then? =(
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2008-02-06, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
I quite intentionally placed no class restrictions on this one. As long as it serves the purpose of the challenge, use whatever you like. You an use divine magic, but it needs to be in service to a arcane-themed "gish". Don't worry, the next challenge will allow the CoDzillas to shine.
Include the level of detail necessary to "show off" your creation -- if there is a specific spell/power/whatever that is key, be sure to include it, otherwise, use your own discretion.Last edited by Duke of URL; 2008-02-06 at 08:24 AM.
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2008-02-06, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
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- Reykjavík, Iceland
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Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
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2008-02-06, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
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2008-02-06, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Reykjavík, Iceland
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Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
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2008-02-06, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
I don't know all of those off-hand. The two I'm more familiar with are Eldritch Knight and Spellsword.
Eldritch Knight, by me at least, be considered to be close enough to a "dual progression" class to draw suspicion -- 9/10 spellcasting and full BAB? The counter-arguments are that it only has one good save (Fort) and doesn't really have any martial class advancement of abilities beyond BAB.
Meh. There are better ways to get the same benefits in Gestalt anyway.
Spellsword is only a 5/10 spell progression class, so I have no problem with that.Last edited by Duke of URL; 2008-02-06 at 09:57 AM.
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2008-02-06, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Reykjavík, Iceland
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Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
Slayer is in the SRD. Abjurant Champion is widely considered the 'ultimate' arcane gish class, giving bonuses to AC from spells, auto-quickening abjuration spells and some stuff like that off the top of my head. It's in the Complete Mage.
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2008-02-06, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
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- Gold Coast, Australia
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Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
Spellsword is only a 5/10 spell progression class, so I have no problem with that.
I would suggest that a dual progression class takes up both sides of a progression instead of being banned outright. That way your build wouldn't lose 1,000,000 points.
Meh. There are better ways to get the same benefits in Gestalt anyway.Last edited by Nebo_; 2008-02-06 at 10:20 AM.
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2008-02-06, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
Generally, it means each level of the class advances the key class abilities of two "entry" classes -- Mystic Theurge is a classic example, as it provides +1 spellcasting to both arcane and divine at every level. Arcane Trickster provides full spellcasting, full sneak attack progression, and additional abilities -- clearly dual progression.
In short, it comes down to intent. If the PrC is essentially designed to have two entr classes and have both of those classes progress at full (or very near full) rates, it's dual-progression.
I really don't want these threads cluttered with a philosophical discussion of what should or shouldn't be allowed in gestalt -- use common sense, and understand that if you push the borders of the guidelines laid out, you may lose votes for it. Or you may not. It depends on the voters, make your case to them.
That's acceptable, and well within the way I've seen gestalt played. Oh, and BTW, you don't "lose" 1M points, you gain 1M "cheese points", which is only one subcategory of judging, and was primarily put there for the humor value.Last edited by Duke of URL; 2008-02-06 at 10:27 AM.
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2008-02-06, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
Psst... the guidelines call for arcane spellcasting in the gish build...
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2008-02-06, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
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- Boston
- Gender
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
Blast! Ignore my entry. I'll use it for some other contest in the FUUUTURE!
Click the spoiler to see all the great games I design:
Spoiler
Who Beats Who? the hilariously geeky game of hypothetical battles.
Who has two thumbs (up) and a board game coming out from Rio Grande? This guy. Gladiators (Rio Grande)
PIZZA IN SPAAAAACE! Cambridge Games Facotry and Spoiled Flush Games Cosmic Pizza coming soon.
Matrix Solitaire, likely the best Solitaire game you will ever play.
Spoiled Flush Games
Twitter... where I talk about game design and beer.
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2008-02-06, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
- Location
- Illinois
- Gender
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
I'm no powergamer, and this is just a basic blueprint, but I'll give this a shot
Name: Blade of Insight
Build: Wizard/A.C./Spellsword//Warblade/Eternal Blade
Starting Ability Scores: 8 str, 16 dex, 12 con, 18 int, 10 wis, 10 cha
Cheese Points:Juggling wizard levels
Minimum Playable Level: why not 1?
power Break: at level 9 he gets channel spell, so he can, theoretically, in one turn, cast a spell and perform a maneuver. Either way, he has some powerful backup to his attacks.
Grey Elf
Wizard1/Warblade1
Wizard2/Warblade2
Wizard3/Warblade3
Wizard4/Warblade4
Wizard5/Warblade5
Spellsword1/Warblade6
Spellsword2/Wizard6
Spellsword3/Warblade7
Spellsword4/Wizard 7
Abjurant Champion1/Warblade8
Abjurant Champion2/Warblade9
Abjurant Champion1/Warblade10
Abjurant Champion1/Warblade11
Abjurant Champion1/Warblade12
Wizard8/Eternal Blade1
Wizard9/Eternal Blade2
Wizard10/Eternal Blade3
Wizard11/Eternal Blade4
Wizard12/Eternal Blade5
Wizard13/Eternal Blade6
Feats: W. Finesse, W. Focus, Combat Casting, Quicken Spell
Important items: Rapier, Headband of Intellect
I'll add more to it later as I figure out how it will work, and I don't know that it's so much potent as it is SAD for Int.Last edited by Omniplex; 2008-02-06 at 02:34 PM.
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2008-02-06, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Boston
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Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
Name: "Mr. Shifty"
Build: Wild Shape Ranger 5/ Master of Many forms 10/ Kensai 5/ Transumter 20
Starting Ability Scores: Str 12 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 15
Cheese Points: 0! (1 for natural spell?)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 1
Power Break: Level 6 -- Transform into wartroll, but look like anything you want thanks to chageling- Cast Arcane spells in wild shape form with Natural Spell.
Wild Shape Ranger 1 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 1
Wild Shape Ranger 2 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 2
Wild Shape Ranger 3 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 3
Wild Shape Ranger 4 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 4
Wild Shape Ranger 5 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 5
Master of Many forms 1 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 6
Master of Many forms 2 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 7
Master of Many forms 3 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 8
Master of Many forms 4 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 9
Master of Many forms 5 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 10
Master of Many forms 6 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 11
Master of Many forms 7 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 12
Master of Many forms 8 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 13
Master of Many forms 9 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 14
Master of Many forms 10 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 15
Kensai 1 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 16
Kensai 2 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 17
Kensai 3 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 18
Kensai 4 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 19
Kensai 5 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 20
Race: Changeling
Feats: Natural Spell, Multi-Attack, Improved Multi-Attack, Improved Grapple
This build gives you a lot of versatillity. In the first column, you get BAB up to 17, which is great, but not optimal. Fortunately, the loss of BAB is more than made up by the huge range in forms granted by the MoMF, not to mention the favored weapon and power surge from Kensai. Your actual BAB quickly becomes irrelevant for #of attacks due to multi attack and improved multi-attack. In melle, you have the abillity to neutralize powerful opponents via grapples, deal huge amounts of damage, and custom pick your abillities depending on the challenge. Relatively poor physical stats are completely bypassed by wild shape. Out of combat, your wide variety of forms gives you utter mastery of any puzzle, skill challenge, or social interaction. The Cha-based skill bonuses from Kensai also make you a master of social interactions.
In the second column- you are a full caster. As a specialist transmuter you have access to the most powerful spells in the game. You can use reduce or enlarge person on yourself in wild shape form, since wild shape doesn't change your type or subtype, to gain access to larger and smaller forms than you normally would be able to. And, thanks to Natural Spell, you can do all of this while still in the form of a war troll, mimic, dragon, elemental, gelatinous cube, or gnat. You also gain access to other form-altering spells that maxamize your in-combat potential. There is truly no situation in which you are not useful.
My favorite part of this build is the synergy between transmutation and shapeshifting. Flavor-wise it is a real winner, and mechanically each abillity meshes well with all others. This character could be played as an elegant trickster (great social skills, illusions, charms, and shapeshifting) or a melevolent force (Brutal combat, transforming into ever-stronger forms, and killing enemies ruthlessly with effects like finger of death, baleful polymorph, and Insanity), or as a spymaster (utterly uncontainable, imminently intelligent, able to fool anybody anywhere, but not afraid to throwdown when things get rough).Last edited by Human Paragon 3; 2008-02-06 at 12:17 PM.
Click the spoiler to see all the great games I design:
Spoiler
Who Beats Who? the hilariously geeky game of hypothetical battles.
Who has two thumbs (up) and a board game coming out from Rio Grande? This guy. Gladiators (Rio Grande)
PIZZA IN SPAAAAACE! Cambridge Games Facotry and Spoiled Flush Games Cosmic Pizza coming soon.
Matrix Solitaire, likely the best Solitaire game you will ever play.
Spoiled Flush Games
Twitter... where I talk about game design and beer.
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2008-02-06, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Location
- Madison
- Gender
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
I actually used this build in a Eberron gestalt game. I've since lost the character sheet and original plan, so I'm not sure which feats I picked up. But here's the basic build - I hope it is okay. I've never submitted anything for these challenges, so, here goes.
Name: "Cleric of the Earth Divine"
Build: Human Cleric 18/Lich 2//Wizard 4/Geomancer 10/Wizard 2/Lich 2/Wizard 2
Starting Ability Scores: STR 12, DEX 14, CON 10, INT 14, WIS 16, CHA 8
Cheese Points: [Not sure]
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Break: 14. All spells, wizard and cleric, are cast in whichever way is best. So Kyra uses her Wis score to set DCs and bonus spells on both Cleric and her Wizard side.
Cleric 1 // Wizard 1
Cleric 2 // Wizard 2
Cleric 3 // Wizard 3
Cleric 4 // Wizard 4
Cleric 5 // Geomancer 1
Cleric 6 // Geomancer 2
Cleric 7 // Geomancer 3
Cleric 8 // Geomancer 4
Cleric 9 // Geomancer 5
Cleric 10 // Geomancer 6
Cleric 11 // Geomancer 7
Cleric 12 // Geomancer 8
Cleric 13 // Geomancer 9
Cleric 14 // Geomancer 10
Cleric 15 // Wizard 5
Cleric 16 // Wizard 6
Cleric 17 // Lich 1
Cleric 18 // Lich 2
Lich 3 // Wizard 7
Lich 4 // Wizard 8
This build presents a number of neat benefits: you get the various drifts and leyline bonuses from the Geomancer class, while gaining the ability to cast all of your spells (wizard and cleric) based on whichever modifier is the highest (Wisdom). As well, you gain the ability to become a Lich at high level, granting virtual immortality.
Clerics make good melee'ers, and your final HD ends up being 20d12 after the lich transformation, with of course no Con modifier.Last edited by Obrysii; 2008-02-06 at 03:10 PM.
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2008-02-06, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
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- Reykjavík, Iceland
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Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
Name: "Psychic Warblade"
Build: Psion 1-4/Slayer 1-10/Psion 6-11//Warblade 1-4/Psion 5/Warblade 5-19
Starting Ability Scores: STR 16, DEX 12, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8
Cheese Points: 2 (Flaws)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 1
Power Break: The major ones occur at levels 12 and 15, when he acquires Stormguard Warrior and Robilar's Gambit, respectively.
Human: {Human Traits}
1: Psion 1 // Warblade 1: Power Attack, Psionic Weapon, Overchannel, Track, Up the Walls {Psion Bonus feat, Weapon Aptitude, Battle Clarity} [Flaws: Shaky and Murky-eyed]
2: Psion 2 // Warblade 2: {Uncanny Dodge}
3: Psion 3 // Warblade 3: Expanded Knowledge (Expansion){Battle Ardor}
4: Psion 4 // Warblade 4:
5: Slayer 1 // Psion 5: Psionic Meditation {Favoured enemy +2, Enemy Sense, Psion Bonus Feat}
6: Slayer 2 // Warblade 5: Combat Reflexes {Brain nausea, Warblade Bonus Feat}
7: Slayer 3 // Warblade 6: {Lucid buffer, Improved Uncanny Dodge}
8: Slayer 4 // Warblade 7: {Favoured enemy +4, Battle Cunning}
9: Slayer 5 // Warblade 8: Greater Psionic Weapon
10: Slayer 6 // Warblade 9: Ironheart Aura {Cerebral blind, Warblade Bonus Feat}
11: Slayer 7 // Warblade 10: {Favoured enemy +6}
12: Slayer 8 // Warblade 11: Stormguard Warrior{Breach power resistance, Battle Skill}
13: Slayer 9 // Warblade 12: {Cerebral immunity}
14: Slayer 10 // Warblade 13: Improved Initiative {Blast feedback, favoured enemy +8, Warblade Bonus Feat}
15: Psion 6 // Warblade 14: Robilar’s Gambit
16: Psion 7 // Warblade 15: {Battle Mastery}
17: Psion 8 // Warblade 16:
18: Psion 9 // Warblade 17: Hold the Line, Blindfight {Warblade Bonus Feat}
19: Psion 10 // Warblade 18: Aligned Attack{Psion Bonus Feat}
20: Psion 11 // Warblade 19:
Offence
The major offensive power of this build comes from the combination of psionic feats and manoeuvres, creating a truly devastating melee beast right from level one. Concentrate on Diamond Mind with some Iron Heart and Stone Dragon manoeuvres thrown in and you should be golden. Full psionic manifestation should be used to cover his weaknesses and aid his strengths, either a Nomad or an Egoist would be best. His maneuverability is quite good as well - to begin with he can run up walls with ease, later he can use psionic powers and magic items to help (if he's a Nomad, he has access to many good movement powers from 7th level, such as Psionic Flight, Psionic Dimension Door and Psionic Freedom of Movement). I recommend using a reach weapon with this build, preferring the simple glaive myself. As soon as possible, this should be upgraded into a +1 Power Storing Deep Crystal Glaive. This is doubly important in the higher levels, when he gets the Stormguard Warrior feat, and then Robilar's Gambit and Hold the Line, allowing him to charge up his damage and to-hit from every forfeited AoO. He can deliver devastating full attacks if the enemy stands still, or use his manoeuvres to inflict similarly devastating single-hit attacks if the enemy is on the move. At 12th level his melee attacks start dropping the PR of any creature he damages by 1 per hit. In addition, he gains a favoured enemy bonus vs. a single type of psionic creatures.
Defense
This build has excellent saves, since he gets Fortitude from the Warblade, Will from Psion/Slayer and can add his Int bonus to Reflex saves - and Int should be his highest stat for the most part. For this reason he can ignore the DM concentration-instead-of-saving-throw manouvres, getting something more offensive instead. The AC should not be too low either despite using a two-handed weapon, thanks to powers such as Force Screen. Also, from 5th level, he can use heavy armour unlike most warblades, thanks to the Slayer. He also has high hit dice throughout his career, d12 on every level except the 5th one where he gets a d8. When his Slayer levels start piling up, his defences vs. mental attacks increase fast, giving him bonuses in saving throws against mental attacks, effective permanent Nondetection (while psionically focused) and finally immunity to mind-affecting effects at level 13 (again, only while focused).
Weaknesses
The main weakness of this build, I admit, is competition for actions from his classes. He can't, unfortunately, do everything at once. This can be mitigated, as pointed out above, by getting a Power Storing weapon, but that only goes so far. Some of his abilities (in particular many of those from the Slayer) only function while he is psionically focused. Some reliance on items, particularly dex and int boosting ones. With murky-eyed you might have some trouble with stuff with concealment, but in those situations you can fall back to using powers that ignore miss chance. I'm also sure, yet too lazy to go hunting for it, that there's some psionic power that let's you ignore concealment on attack rolls. Psionic True Sight is one, but it has only rounds/level duration and is a bit too high level to rely on.
Variants
An alternate way to do this build is the simpler Psion 1-4/Slayer 1-10/Psion 5-10//Warblade 20. This means that he loses out on psionic manifestation, but gains another level of Warblade and, at 20th level, Stance Mastery. Finally, the same effect could be achieved by the plain Psion 20//Warblade 20. This means he doesn't get the mental defences of the Slayer, nor Heavy Armour proficiency, but on the other hand it doesn't sacrifice Manifester- or Initiator levels.
...Right, did I miss any points about this build?
EDIT: The flaws are not strictly necessary, but I threw them in there anyway. Overchanneling is always fun, and this guy has the HP to take the hit. Speed of Thought is not necessary either, but it helps on the lower levels. Sadly, it doesn't work while wearing heavy armour.
EDIT2: Guess I should have included which flaws I'm taking.
EDIT 3: Just realised I had a feat on 2nd level for no good reason. A feat I didn't qualify for, either. Well, corrected by changing around some of the feats on levels 1-3.
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2008-02-06, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- The Land of Cleves
- Gender
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
OK, the logical response to Duke of URL's Lion King, I present:
Snake on a Plane
Build:Couatl HD 9/Sorcerer 1/Loremaster 10 // LA 7/Monk 2/Fighter 2/Paladin (of honor) 9
Starting Ability Scores: Str 24, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 22
Cheese Points: 1 (multiclassing penalty)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 9
Power Break: ECL 10 (Righteous Might), 18 (Miracle)
Couatl {coatl traits}
1: Outsider 1 // LA 1: Eschew Materials B, Extend Spell
2: Outsider 2 // LA 2
3: Outsider 3 // LA 3: Heighten Spell
4: Outsider 4 // LA 4
5: Outsider 5 // LA 5
6: Outsider 6 // LA 6: Still Spell
7: Outsider 7 // LA 7
8: Outsider 8 // Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple{Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, AC bonus}
9: Outsider 9 // Monk 2: Skill focus: Knowledge (Arcana), Combat Reflexes {Evasion}
10: Sorcerer 1 // Fighter 1: Power Attack {PHB2 rapid metamagic variant}
11: Loremaster 1 // Fighter 2: Improved Initiative {Secret of Inner Strength}
12: Loremaster 2 // Paladin 1: Quicken Spell {Lore, smite evil 1/day}
13: Loremaster 3 // Paladin 2: {Weapon Trick, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands}
14: Loremaster 4 // Paladin 3: {Bonus Language, Aura of Courage, Divine Health}
15: Loremaster 5 // Paladin 4: Ascetic Mage, Divine Metamagic: Quicken {Applicable Knowledge, Turn Undead}
16: Loremaster 6 // Paladin 5: {Greater Lore, Smite Evil 2/day, Charging Smite}
17: Loremaster 7 // Paladin 6: {Dodge Trick, Remove Disease /week}
18: Loremaster 8 // Paladin 7: Mindsight {Bonus Language}
19: Loremaster 9 // Paladin 8: {Secret Knowledge of Avoidance}
20: Loremaster 10 // Paladin 9: {True Lore, Remove Disease 2/week}
Sorcerer spells known (not exhaustive):
0: Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Guidance
1: True Strike, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Armor, Shield
2: Locate Object, Alter Self, Web, Glitterdust, Aid
3: Clairvoyance, Stinking Cloud, Magic Circle against Evil, Haste
4: Enervation, Charm Monster, Death Ward
5: Righteous Might, Control Winds, Shadow Evocation
6: Heal, Disintegrate, Acid Fog
7: Summon Monster VII, Waves of Exhaustion, Bite of the Werebear
8: Holy Aura, Iron Body, Mind Blank
9: Miracle, Foresight
Offense: Snake maintains full sorcerer casting and full BAB throughout his progression. As a couatl, he can learn sorcerer spells from the cleric list and Air domain, giving him access to the melee powerhouse Righteous Might and do-everything Miracle. As an outsider, he has access to other outsider forms via Alter Self, such as the Dwarven Ancestor. He always starts a fight invisible (thanks to his at-will ability as a couatl), and Clairvoyance and his at-will Detect Alignment and Detect Thoughts abilities allow him to gather intel before a fight. Against a single foe, he uses quickened buffs and wades into melee. In situations where he can only make one attack, he bites and immediately makes a grapple attempt (thanks to Improved Grab), with a very high bonus to the check. If full attacks are preferable, he instead takes a Flurry of Blows with his unarmed strike. Against groups of monsters, he has an area-effect save-or-suck for each of the three saves, which he can heighten as necessary, before taking on those that make their saves. When faced with numbers too large for conventional sorcerer AOE spells, he takes to the air and casts Control Winds (courtesy of the air domain).
Divine Metamagic allows him to quicken one of his buff spells the same round he enters melee. While Nightsticks will of course help here, even without them, he has enough turning checks to quicken at least two (or possibly three, depending on Cha-boosting equipment) spells per day. Even if all of his turn attempts and useful spells are exhausted, he has unlimited use of two different save-or-suck effects, Plane Shift or poison (the poison admittedly has a low DC, but a 1 still fails, and it's fairly high Strength damage).
At 18th level, the Miracle spell adds many options. He uses it to cast a permanencied Greater Magic Fang on his bite and his unarmed strike, bringing both to +5, and a Contingencied Righteous Might, triggered by him saying the word "Durkon" (this allows him to toss up both Bite of the Werebear and Righteous Might quickly in a critical fight, while still leaving enough time in the round for a charge or full attack). He also miraculously casts a great many Magic Mouth spells on himself at high CL, with obscure and highly unlikely triggering conditions, as insurance against being caught in an area dispel (which will hopefully only dispel a Mouth, leaving the important buffs untouched).
Defense: In his natural form, and with no buffs or equipment, Snake has an AC of 29 (-1 size, +2 dex, +9 natural, +1 dodge, +8 monk). With stat boosting items, this can be increased to 38, and with all of his buffs up, this can easily increase to 48 (+4 Mage Armor, +5 Shield of Faith, +1 Righteous Might). His saves are very good, at Fort +25, Ref +19, Will +26 (I think... Gestalt save progressions are confusing), and he has decent HP (9d8+11d10, with a +4 Con modifier before items). He can cast both Mind Blank and Death Ward, protecting him entirely from a great many spells, and between Foresight, Mindsight, and decent Spot and Listen skills, he's almost impossible to ambush. He has natural flight, and in a worst-case scenario, he can generally escape from a losing fight via his Ethereal Jaunt or Plane Shift abilities.
Utility: By level 20, Snake has 198 skill points, and access to some nice class skills, including Spot, Listen, Tumble, Diplomacy, all Knowledge skills, and UMD (though I'm not sure what he'd need UMD for, with access to the two largest spell lists already). He has natural flight, and his Plane Shift and Ethereal Jaunt abilities can help to transport himself and his party to distant destinations (if you land too far off-target with Plane Shift, just try again). He can coordinate his party's tactics telepathically, and he can render his entire party invisible.
Recommended equipment: Snake does not need any particular equipment, since he fights with natural weapons, and does not wear physical armor. However, he benefits from some items. As with any character, ioun stones are useful, especially the pale green prism (+1 on attacks and checks) and orange prism (+1 caster level). He can also use a Bead of Karma, thanks to paladin spellcasting, to increase his caster level for long-term buffs (note that the bead affects all spellcasting, not just divine). Nightsticks will allow him to quicken more spells, and ability score boosters are always useful. The highest priority for ability score boosters is Charisma, followed by Strength, but he can benefit from increases to most of his scores (Dex increases initiative and AC, Wis powers his paladin spells, and Con is obvious), so a Belt of Magnificence might be a sound investment (if it's possible to fit a belt for a giant flying snake). He'll also probably want backup weapons (usable in a humanoid form, via Alter Self or Change Shape) to deal with metallic damage reduction.
Weakness: Although he has many skill points, he gets the most per level at low levels, so he can only max out 7 skills. He also can't start adventuring until halfway through the non-epic progression, thanks to his high racial HD. And until he gets Ascetic Mage at 15th level, he relies mostly on natural armor for AC, so his touch AC will be poor.
Almost done with this. I might still swap out some other class for the second monk level, if I can find something with good enough benefits.Last edited by Chronos; 2008-02-11 at 01:18 AM.
Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2008-02-06, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
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- Utah
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Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
There's a splatbook Sorcerer spell, popular among dragons, that will fix this problem in a jiffy. It adds your NArmor bonus to your Touch AC. It's a Level 2 spell called Scintillating Scales, and is from the Spell Compendium (and somewhere else? not sure).
This is a work in progress. It's mostly core, since I don't have easy access to anything else, and I'm not sure what to do with some of the feats. There's probably a paladin variant without the mount which would work better, and I'm also not sure if I can do anything productive with Turn Undead (don't know the exact requirements for things like DMM). Suggestions would be welcome
Turn attempts also aren't hard to find a good use for. Look at the Divine Might feat in the SRD. You have high Charisma. You have Power Attack. You whack things. This feat is good for you. It's especially valuable if you can get full attacks. I don't think the Lion's Charge spell (also in Spell Compendium) is a Sorc/Cleric/Air spell, though, so I'm not sure how to get you more full attacks. Warblade dip is a tempting option for sure (Sudden Leap maneuver).Last edited by Draz74; 2008-02-06 at 07:47 PM.
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2008-02-06, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
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- Fairfield, CA
- Gender
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
Name: "Iron Man"
Build: Human Duskblade 20//Archivist 5/Divine Oracle 2/Sacred Exorcist 2/Prestige Paladin 3/Divine Oracle +8
Starting Ability Scores: STR 10, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 18, WIS 10, CHA 10
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 3
Power Break: Level 12 -- Ability to autoquicken any spell cast from Archivist slots.
{table=head]ECL | Left Level | Right Level
1 | Duskblade | Archivist
2 | Duskblade | Archivist
3 | Duskblade | Archivist
4 | Duskblade | Archivist
5 | Duskblade | Archivist
6 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
7 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
8 | Duskblade | Sacred Exorcist
9 | Duskblade | Sacred Exorcist
10 | Duskblade | Prestige Paladin
11 | Duskblade | Prestige Paladin
12 | Duskblade | Prestige Paladin
13 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
14 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
15 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
16 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
17 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
18 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
19 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
20 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle[/table]
Key Feats: Sword of the Arcane Order, Battle Blessing, Extraordinary Spell Aim.
Of Note: Full BAB, 20/20 Duskblade//19/20 "Archivist" casting, Armor Proficiency (through Heavy), Weapon Proficiency (through Martial).
Offense
Left Side casts as a duskblade and grants access to Arcane Channeling. Right Side is a bit of a conundrum. Due to the Sword of the Arcane Order feat, he can prepare any wizard spell via a spellbook into any of his paladin spell slots (in this case, because of prestige paladin, his archivist slots). Battle Blessing makes all of his paladin slots (in this case, because of prestige paladin, his archivist slots) automatically quickened. Completely capable of typical Clericzilla cheese.
Battle-blessinged harm followed by anything powered through Arcane Channeling--potentially inflict spells or spells like combust--would be the main point of attack. Might make use of battle-blessinged true strike.
Defense
Casts without ASF in medium armor. Has evasion and uncanny dodge, probably will fight sword and board due to low strength and rely on spells for damage. Uses Extraordinary Spell Aim coupled with AMF to shut other casters down and weaken other melee types. Deals with ranged attacks via entropic shield, blur, and blink. Has plenty of skill points to burn on things like Tumble and Spellcraft, but near-to-no need for such. Lowish HP (17d8+3d10+20 without equipment; 17d8+3d10+80 with equipment) can be compensated for with false life and/or divine vigor.
Weaknesses
Despite having evasion and uncanny dodge, might run into trouble with Reflex saves.
Equipment
(mostly for completeness' sake)
Weapon: Flaming Freezing Shocking Keen Adamantine Longsword +1
Shield: Arrow Deflecting Adamantine Heavy Shield +3
Crown: Headband of Intellect +6
Throat: Amulet of Health +6
Body: Mithral Full Plate of Heavy Fortification +1
Cloak: Cloak of Resistance +5
Hands: Gauntlets of Rust
Ring: Ring of Deflection +5
Ring: Ring of Blinking
Waist: Belt of Giant Strength +6
Feet: Boots of Haste
Slotless: Orange Ioun StoneLast edited by Fax Celestis; 2008-02-07 at 03:19 PM.
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d20r: Spells (I-L) - d20r: Spells (H) - d20r: Spells (G) - d20r: Spells (F) - d20r: Spells (E) - d20r: Spells (D) - d20r: Wizard class
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2008-02-06, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
I'm too lazy to do it myself, but somebody please try to fit Ruby Knight Vindicator into one of these builds with Battle Blessing so you can cast as many quickened spells per round as you please?
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2008-02-06, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
This would get voted out for cheeziness, but you could do supermount spell sage (arcane casting swordsage adaptation)
Code:Strong Heart Halfling Holy Warrior Paladin //Arcane Swordsage feat[Track], feat[Skill Focus(Handle Animal)] Holy Warrior Paladin //Arcane Swordsage Holy Warrior Paladin //Arcane Swordsage feat[IUS] Holy Warrior Paladin //Arcane Swordsage paladin[Mounted Combat] Holy Warrior Paladin //Arcane Swordsage Beastmaster //Arcane Swordsage feat[Devoted Tracker] Wild Plains Outrider //Arcane Swordsage Wild Plains Outrider //Arcane Swordsage Wild Plains Outrider //Arcane Swordsage feat[Mounted Archery] Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage feat[Dragon Mount] Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage feat[Ascetic Mage] Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage feat[Adaptive style] Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage Beastmaster //Arcane Swordsage
I think it works; it was fun to throw together anyway, though there's not enough info about arcane swordsage to be sure.
Holy Warrior is from complete champion; drops spellcasting for bonus feats.Homebrew
Current Project (A sequel to Tome of Battle)
Past Projects, some of which I may come back toSpoiler
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2008-02-06, 09:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
EDIT:
This version withdrawn in favor of different build. You'll see why.Last edited by Zincorium; 2008-02-07 at 07:22 PM.
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
- Thomas Jefferson
Avatar by Meynolds!
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2008-02-06, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
Turn attempts also aren't hard to find a good use for. Look at the Divine Might feat in the SRD.Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2008-02-06, 10:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
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- Santa Monica, CA, US
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Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
Are we allowed multiple entries?
Action! (work in progress)
Build: Wizard 8/Spellsword 1/Swiftblade 6/Abjurant Champion 5//Warblade 16/Swiftblade 4
Starting Ability Scores: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 18
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Break: Multiple. Most significant is at 14, where it gains a free standard action per round.
Code:Human [Dodge*] Lv: Class 1 // Class 2 / Frt / Ref / Wil / [Feats] and -noted spells- 1 : Sorcerer // Warblade / 2 / 0 / 2 / [Heavy Armor Prof] -benign transposition- 2 : Sorcerer // Warblade / 3 / 0 / 3 / 3 : Sorcerer // Warblade / 3 / 1 / 3 / [Mobility] 4 : Sorcerer // Warblade / 4 / 1 / 4 / 5 : Warblade // Spellsword / 6 / 1 / 6 / [Improved Initiative*] -nerveskitter- 6 : Sorcerer // Swiftblade / 6 / 3 / 8 / [Combat Casting] [Spring Attack*] 7 : Warblade // Swiftblade / 7 / 4 / 9 / 8 : Warblade // Swiftblade / 7 / 4 / 9 / -Ruin Delvar's Fortune- 9 : Sorcerer // Swiftblade / 8 / 5 / 10 / [Rapid Metamagic] 10: Warblade // Swiftblade / 9 / 5 / 10 / -Arcane Fusion- 11: Warblade // Swiftblade / 9 / 6 / 11 / 12: Sorcerer // Swiftblade / 9 / 6 / 11 / [Quicken Spell] [Bounding Assault*] 13: Warblade // Swiftblade / 10 / 7 / 12 / [Combat Reflexes*] 14: Warblade // Swiftblade / 10 / 7 / 12 / -Bite of the Werebear- 15: Sorcerer // Swiftblade / 10 / 8 / 13 / [Versatile Spellcaster] 16: Warblade // Abjurant Champion / 11 / 9 / 15 / -Greater Arcane Fusion- 17: Warblade // Abjurant Champion / 11 / 9 / 16 / 18: Warblade // Abjurant Champion / 12 / 9 / 16 / [Lucky Start] 19: Warblade // Abjurant Champion / 12 / 12 / 17 / [Lightning Reflexes*] 20: Warblade // Abjurant Champion / 13 / 12 / 17 /
Prefers to pump Charisma with the stat bonuses.
This is a low equipment character that loves its haste. It wants to get mithril equipment (mithril breastplate with Twilight enhancement, most notably) as soon as it can... but doesn't necessarily require it. It also LOVES the belt of battle - the more actions, the better. Once again, doesn't require it however.
Offense:
Offensively, it wants to win initiative as soon as it can. Improved Initiative, Lucky Start, and possibly nerveskitter try to ensure this, as well as preferably a weapon of warning, and a reroll, pre-items.
Once it takes action, it keeps taking action. It tries to get haste off asap, possibly as part of a haste, or as part of an arcane fusion with benign transposition to set up a tactical position advantage.
It then combines multiple standard actions with greater arcane fusion, quicken spell, Versatile Spellcaster to keep power arcane fusion/greater, with a definite goal of putting bite of the werebear in there. Utilizing only a single round to full buff itself, normally.
It then closes in the gap quickly, and rapidly utilizes an assortment of maneuvers with its immense amount of actions available.
Not to mention the utilizing haste as time stop spontaneously.
Defense:
It has great saves most of the way through, as well as full base attack bonus. Coupled with Ruin Delvar's Fortune (+CHA bonus to a single save as a swift action for 1d4 rounds, + other effects), it is difficult for it to fail a save.
It has many rounds and chances to buff itself, and the party. As a full spellcaster, it has many many options available to it on this side.
Its AC is decent, thanks to the help of the ASF reduction of spellsword, and eventually the AC benefit for shield provided by abj champ.
It has decent HP, as well.
Weakness:
*still checking back through build*
(In Progress Build)
Other build (if only single build allowed, this one is just for personal amusement:)
Spoiler
I said... ACTION!
Code:(Ranger is UA Wild Shape Alternative) Lv: Class 1 // Class 2 1 : Ranger // Duskblade 2 : Ranger // Duskblade 3 : Ranger // Favored Soul 4 : Ranger // Sorcerer 5 : Ranger // Duskblade 6 : Planar Shepherd // Duskblade 7 : Planar Shepherd // Duskblade 8 : Planar Shepherd // Duskblade 9 : Planar Shepherd // Duskblade 10: Planar Shepherd // Duskblade 11: Planar Shepherd // Duskblade 12: Planar Shepherd // Duskblade 13: Planar Shepherd // Duskblade 14: Planar Shepherd // Duskblade 15: Planar Shepherd // Duskblade 16: Favored Soul // Abjurant Champion 17: Favored Soul // Abjurant Champion 18: Favored Soul // Abjurant Champion 19: Favored Soul // Abjurant Champion 20: Favored Soul // Abjurant Champion Planar Shepherd Advances Favored Soul. Abjurant Champion Advances Sorcerer
Last edited by Reinboom; 2008-02-06 at 11:28 PM.
Avatar by Alarra
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2008-02-07, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
Re: Gestalt Build Challenge II: Great Gishes (ENTRIES OPEN)
You can enter as many builds as you like... voting is based on build, not participant.
Please place each build in a separate post, however.Last edited by Duke of URL; 2008-02-07 at 10:12 AM.