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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Wizard vs Sorcerer

    I'm a total noob in terms of being able to argue a classes case. When my friend said that Sorcerers were better than Wizards. Knowing the people of the Playground, I knew that to be false, as Wizards were at the top of the power curve, but I couldn't explain why. Sorcerers get more spells to cast per day was the basis of his argument.

    Tell me why he is wrong.

    P.S. I usually play martial orientated characters, that's why in the magic department, my knowledge is lacking- a lot.
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    The main reasons that you are going to get are:

    1. Metamagic/Familiar: Sorcerers need to use more time to metamagic a spell unless they use the PHB 2 variant, in which case they lose their familiar.

    2. Versitility: Wizards aren't limited to a pretty small pool of spells known as Sorcerers are.

    3. Bonus Feats: Wizards get them, sorcerers don't.

    4. Spells sooner: Wizards get access to spells one full level sooner than Sorcerers.

    5. Skill points: Both have the same base, but a Wizard's most important stat is Int.
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    What AKA_Bait said is all true. (Although the Familiar isn't a big deal usually. The PHB II helps the Sorcerer overcome the Metamagic problem pretty well, really.)

    One more thing: In most campaigns, the casters never run out of spells anyway, so the Sorcerer's greater number of spells/day doesn't help. This isn't really true at Levels 1-4 or so, but after that ... yeah.

    The Sorcerer's biggest advantage over the Wizard is actually that he doesn't have to guess how many times he will need to prepare each spell; he's more adaptable on a short-term basis. But that's made up for by the Wizard being way more adaptable on a long-term basis.
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    What it comes down to is spells to choose from. Wizards can potentially learn every spell in the game. This means that with some preparation (meaning some divinations cast in advance) a wizard can have a spellbook that deals with whatever situation he'll be faced with. A sorcerer pretty much has to take spells that are useful 90% of the time, when cast over and over.

    That said, in my experience very few players are actually capable of that much preparation. It takes 4-6 HOURS for me to plan my level 24 wizard's spells for the day. There's a good chance that at some point during those hours I make a bad choice. And even if I don't, I'm so exhausted from reading D&D spells that I'm likely to play poorly. My sorcerer doesn't have this problem. I guess what I'm getting at is that the wizard has a ton more potential, but there's so much overhead that they often get dragged down quite a bit. (FWIW my sorcerer uses the PHB2 fast metamagic option, is about to take incantatrix, and regularly outperforms the party wizard).

    Sorcerers do have a few options for making up for wizards in terms of spell selection. Anything with spell pool (ie Mage of the Arcane Order) is helpful. As is shadow magic. It only takes 4 levels of MotAO to get level 6 spells out of your spell pool. I'd really like to see a 6 sorc, 4 MotAO, 10 incantatrix. Gnome sorc shadowcrafter seems like it would be tons of fun too, though none of my groups would allow it.
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by valadil View Post
    What it comes down to is spells to choose from. Wizards can potentially learn every spell in the game. This means that with some preparation (meaning some divinations cast in advance) a wizard can have a spellbook that deals with whatever situation he'll be faced with. A sorcerer pretty much has to take spells that are useful 90% of the time, when cast over and over.

    That said, in my experience very few players are actually capable of that much preparation. It takes 4-6 HOURS for me to plan my level 24 wizard's spells for the day.
    Although this is true, it can be much alleviated by the use of scrolls, wonderous items and wands. Wizards get scribe scroll for free and the bonus feats make CWI and CW pretty easy aquisitions. Scrolls for particularly unusual spells that they might someday need, wands (eternal wands usually for my wizard) of low level utility spells (Knock, Tongues etc.), and items of things they will almost certianly need on a regular basis (Mage Armor etc.) A Wizard with a big sack o' scrolls (many of which he bought for the explicit purpose of adding a new spell to his book that he hasn't used yet) is as, if not more, versitle than a Sorcerer.

    That said, the bookkeeping is still much much more for a Wizard. So, although they are technically more powerful than Sorcerers on paper I usually prefer to play sorcerers or to take reserve feats/prc into Archmage and use High Arcana.
    Last edited by AKA_Bait; 2008-02-06 at 03:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Easy, firstly, Wizards can learn all the spells on their spell lists, which sorcerers cannot. Due to this, more versatility.

    Second, if the wizard uses divinations right and is always prepared, he can thus choose just the right spells for anything and therefore be extremely hard to beat.

    Third, wizards get metamagic feats.

    Simply put, a Sorcerer is too specialized and doesn't have the metamagic feats and scrolls a wizard has.
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Sorcerers do have one great advantage.
    Take 1 Wizard, take his spell-book away and burn it in front of him.
    Watch him cry, Congratulations Level 20 commoner with a high will save!

    Take a Sorcerer, look ma! No Spellbook!
    However in 99% of DM's never pull this meaning that it goes to the Wizard every time

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragor View Post
    I'm a total noob in terms of being able to argue a classes case. When my friend said that Sorcerers were better than Wizards. Knowing the people of the Playground, I knew that to be false, as Wizards were at the top of the power curve, but I couldn't explain why. Sorcerers get more spells to cast per day was the basis of his argument.

    Tell me why he is wrong.

    P.S. I usually play martial orientated characters, that's why in the magic department, my knowledge is lacking- a lot.
    It depends on the player and the campaign and the main reason I prefer the variant spellcaster. The advantages are pretty obvious comparing them in core side to side since the sorcerer classs was nerfed mechanically when compared to all other spontaneous full casters. A sorcerer is pretty good for a first caster to get a handle on spellcasting.

    IMO the sorcerer class actually benefits a little more from an open source game since the sorcerer PC loses nothing for PRCing and gets better spell selection and class options particularly with the Mage of the Arcane Order or Guild Wizard of Waterdeep PRC and Rings of Theurgy since the Player can master a few dozen spells and use them as desired in the game. Don't forget Abjurant Champion. (Notice there wasn't a corresponding Master Sorcerer PRC like the Master Specialist for the Specialist Wizards and only the Specialist Wizards)

    The wizard player with 30+ spells a level and a DM who monitors down time for scribing scrools and deducts experience and insists on a copy of the wizard's daily memorized spell lists is a lot of work.

    So in some games he is correct. In tight low magic campaigns where it is tough for wizard's to get new spells without original spell research or treasure from a DM (Yes people actually play those games) sorcerer can be very nice especially with a few variants like going Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with a Reserve feat Fiery Burst at level 1 fueled by Precocious Apprentice Scorching Ray. He is correct with Players and DMs who don't like to do a lot of book and record keeping.
    Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2008-02-06 at 07:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Another very very important thing to note about higher levels is quicken spell metamagic.
    Even with the PHB2 alternative class feature, the sorcerer is still limited to using it only 3+ int times a day. 3+ int times a day at an extra action in a round, that is.

    Actions per round is one of the, if not the, most powerful immediate resource in the game for higher levels. Which a sorcerer gets stripped of completely in core, and can only do so a limited times per day with extra books.
    If the game goes down to only 1 to 2 combats a day, so, the 3+int + metamagic rod eventually limit doesn't matter much, then the sorcerer loses one of its two benefits over the wizard, which is the number of spells per day available.
    On 3 or more combats a day, the sorcerer might have more potential spells total in that time, but, can't pull off as many on a per round basis as the wizard.

    Next is the spells known and when they actually get the next level. Sorcerers , as mentioned before, get their spells at a level later. 3rd level spells at level 6 instead of level 5, and similar. However, even when they finally get their new level, they still only know 1 spell for it. This makes them extremely cornered in the focus of versatility. In contrast, a wizard automatically gets 2 spells at each level AND can write more into its book. Which means, by the time the sorcerer gets the ability to cast Haste, and just Haste for the 3rd level, the Wizard could already be deciding between atleast Haste, Slow, Fireball, and Fly.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackadder View Post
    Sorcerers do have one great advantage.
    Take 1 Wizard, take his spell-book away and burn it in front of him.
    Watch him cry, Congratulations Level 20 commoner with a high will save!

    Take a Sorcerer, look ma! No Spellbook!
    However in 99% of DM's never pull this meaning that it goes to the Wizard every time
    Why wouldn't the Wizard have a spare?

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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackadder View Post
    Sorcerers do have one great advantage.
    Take 1 Wizard, take his spell-book away and burn it in front of him.
    Watch him cry, Congratulations Level 20 commoner with a high will save!

    Take a Sorcerer, look ma! No Spellbook!
    However in 99% of DM's never pull this meaning that it goes to the Wizard every time
    Any wizard worth his salt is going to take protective measures against this. There are also such things as a tattoo spellbook and similar feats and alternative class features that make it more difficult (if not impossible) for a spellbook to be taken or destroyed.

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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Has anyone posted a sorcerer fix in homebrew? I checked, but the search function is annoying and I couldn't find one.

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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by CASTLEMIKE View Post
    In tight low magic campaigns where it is tough for wizard's to get new spells without original spell research or treasure from a DM sorcerer can be very nice especially with a few variants like going Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with a Reserve feat Fiery Burst at level 1 fueled by Precocious Apprentice Scorching Ray. He is correct with Players and DMs who don't like to do a lot of book and record keeping.
    I am assuming that the "Precocious Apprentice" is a feat allowing you a higher level spell at lower levels. Can you post the feat and book here so I can look it over? I would really like to learn more as you have intrigued me...

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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackadder View Post
    Sorcerers do have one great advantage.
    Take 1 Wizard, take his spell-book away and burn it in front of him.
    Watch him cry, Congratulations Level 20 commoner with a high will save!

    Take a Sorcerer, look ma! No Spellbook!
    However in 99% of DM's never pull this meaning that it goes to the Wizard every time
    Also, Adepts are massively superior to druids, because you can dominate the druid and make him/her teach a non-druid the Druidic language. Seriously.

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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by shaggz076 View Post
    I am assuming that the "Precocious Apprentice" is a feat allowing you a higher level spell at lower levels. Can you post the feat and book here so I can look it over? I would really like to learn more as you have intrigued me...
    Sure here you go:

    http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...Apprentice,CAr

    http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...Fiery_Burst,CM
    Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2008-02-06 at 04:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackadder View Post
    Sorcerers do have one great advantage.
    Take 1 Wizard, take his spell-book away and burn it in front of him.
    Watch him cry, Congratulations Level 20 commoner with a high will save!

    Take a Sorcerer, look ma! No Spellbook!
    However in 99% of DM's never pull this meaning that it goes to the Wizard every time
    Note a wizard nearly always:
    A) Protects their spellbook.
    B) Has a backup
    C) Has a way to get another spellbook
    D) Still has many spells still prepared at the time of the F 451 of which to utilize til a replacement is found.

    Then... comes the issue if the above is not true.
    You just removed the sole class feature of a class in its ENTIRETY. It has no significant skills, BAB, Hit Die, etc. They are insignificant, and can perform nearly nothing.
    Thus, you just did not only nerf a class, you just attacked the ability of its player to have any reasonable enjoyment out of their class. To directly deny a player enjoyment out of a game so harshly, I consider, rather mean DMing.

    Quote Originally Posted by CASTLEMIKE View Post
    -snip-
    Don't forget that the wizard gets 2 spells free at each level.
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by h_v View Post
    Why wouldn't the Wizard have a spare?
    Not only a spare, but a few spares, hidden on the same plane, with an arcane mark on them and Spell Mastery with Instant Summons among the spells known. Any decent wizard who has his spell book destroyed will be a commoner for all of 8 hours, max.
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by AKA_Bait View Post
    A Wizard with a big sack o' scrolls (many of which he bought for the explicit purpose of adding a new spell to his book that he hasn't used yet) is as, if not more, versitle than a Sorcerer.
    Quite true. I didn't even bother mentioning this, because I feel that even without a Santa sack of scrolls, the wizard is still more versatile.

    Yes sorcerers can buy scrolls too, but the wizard gets to make them cheaper AND use his caster level instead of the default. At level 10, a level 5 caster's fireball isn't all that great, but a scroll the wizard makes will be at CL10.

    I think things might be even if the sorcerer got bonus metamagic and the wizard didn't (or maybe the wizard got crafting feats but not metamagic). I really like playing a sorcerer with tons of metamagic (incantatrix gives 3 mm feats) and spontaneously building up the spell I need. I've found that having lots of metamagic with residual metamagic does add some amount of versatility. It won't suddenly give you waterbreathing when confronted with an underwater situation, but it does let you empower and split that ray of enfeeblement when confronted with two casters.
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate Scribe View Post
    Also, Adepts are massively superior to druids, because you can dominate the druid and make him/her teach a non-druid the Druidic language. Seriously.
    OMG, I'm totally going to drop my druid character and make an adept instead!!!!!1!111!!.

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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    Has anyone posted a sorcerer fix in homebrew? I checked, but the search function is annoying and I couldn't find one.
    Many, I believe. I have, at least.

    Really, the simplest method at just "fixing" the sorcerer is:
    Add 1 spell known per spell level.
    Increase their skills to 4+Int skill points.
    Add Know(The Planes), Diplomacy, Intimidate to their lists.
    Give them eschew materials.

    These are the most common fixes. Giving them metamagic as a wizard, and similar, have also occurred.
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by valadil View Post
    I think things might be even if the sorcerer got bonus metamagic and the wizard didn't (or maybe the wizard got crafting feats but not metamagic).
    That particular variant is one I've always liked quite a lot. Sorc and Wiz both get bonus feats at the same levels. Sorc get metamagic, wizards get item creation/spell mastery. Bump them to getting into spells at the same level and I think they are close to even.
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by valadil View Post


    Yes sorcerers can buy scrolls too, but the wizard gets to make them cheaper AND use his caster level instead of the default. At level 10, a level 5 caster's fireball isn't all that great, but a scroll the wizard makes will be at CL10.
    A sorcerer can do that around level 12 for a high powered game via Mage of the Arcane Order or Guild Wizard of Waterdeep with a Ring of Theurgy and taking the Scribe Scroll feat since a PC can normally only scribe a single scroll a day.

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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    A sorcerer can only work a few synergistic (or broken) spell combos into their spells known. A wizard can have several of those spell combos prepared, and typically has every broken spell combo in his spellbook.

    That's where the wizard's greater versatility really shines.

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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by AKA_Bait View Post
    That particular variant is one I've always liked quite a lot. Sorc and Wiz both get bonus feats at the same levels. Sorc get metamagic, wizards get item creation/spell mastery. Bump them to getting into spells at the same level and I think they are close to even.
    Combining that with what I said:

    Sorcerer Variant
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Pat Buchanon

    Wait! No! I mis-cast my vote! The ballot was confusing. Anyhow, Wizard has been my fave, though the class does require some bookkeeping. This has been a turn-off to some caster-players. Me, I keep a little box of 3x5 cards which has my spellbook contents, and which spells I've memorized for the day. It's my favorite method so far. Others prefer to play the sorcerer, who has a limited spell list and casts as they like.
    "Everything is better on fire."

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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    There's a feat similar to Arcane Manipulation for Sorcerors somewhere. I think they should get both it and Eschew Materials for free. It might help somewhat.

    EDIT: There it is: Versatile Spellcaster.
    Last edited by Fax Celestis; 2008-02-06 at 04:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by CASTLEMIKE View Post
    A sorcerer can do that around level 12 for a high powered game via Mage of the Arcane Order or Guild Wizard of Waterdeep with a Ring of Theurgy and taking the Scribe Scroll feat since a PC can normally only scribe a single scroll a day.
    So... you are saying that with a PrC and a Magical Item, or by spending an extra feat a sorcerer can do what a Wizard does without needing any of those things? Not exactly a point in the Sorc. favor.

    Quote Originally Posted by SweetRein View Post
    Combining that with what I said:

    Sorcerer Variant
    Lets have a look see.

    Edit: Fantastic. Me like class table generator!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax_Celestis View Post
    There's a feat similar to Arcane Manipulation for Sorcerors somewhere. I think they should get both it and Eschew Materials for free. It might help somewhat.

    EDIT: There it is: Versatile Spellcaster.
    Frankly, I think inexpensive material components should just be done away with all together. They serve pretty much no real purpose and most of them are (literally) bad jokes.
    Last edited by AKA_Bait; 2008-02-06 at 05:13 PM.
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by AKA_Bait View Post
    So... you are saying that with a PrC and a Magical Item, or by spending an extra feat a sorcerer can do what a Wizard does without needing any of those things? Not exactly a point in the Sorc. favor.
    No what I'm saying is if it is that important to a player to have Scrolls it can be done in game. Say the group without magic stores or a wizard in the party because no one wants to play them or the Sorcerer who wants an occassional Limited Wish but can't take Arcane Disciple Spell domain.

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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by CASTLEMIKE View Post
    No what I'm saying is if it is that important to a player to have Scrolls it can be done in game. Say the group without magic stores or a wizard in the party because no one wants to play them or the Sorcerer who wants an occassional Limited Wish but can't take Arcane Disciple Spell domain.
    Oh sure. Just thought that was supposed to be a point against the Wizard being better... given the thread title.
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    Default Re: Wizard vs Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenos View Post
    Third, wizards get metamagic feats.
    Simply put, a Sorcerer is too specialized and doesn't have the metamagic feats and scrolls a wizard has.
    Rather, what you mean is that the Wizard gets Wizard Bonus feats, which may be used to learn metamagic or other specialized feats such as item creation, etc. The Wizard gets a bonus feat every 5th level, so they end up with 4 more feats (5 counting Scribe Scroll) than the Sorcerer by level 20. Of course, most Wizards go into PrC's, so they lose some bonus feats (but what they gain from the PrC is more than worth it).

    Sorcerers can take advantage of metamagic much better than a Wizard. A Wizard needs to prepare spells already megamagiced, while a Sorcerer can metamagic them on the fly. If a Sorcerer wants to nuke harder, they say use a 6th level slot to cast Maximized Fireball. If a Wizard wants to nuke harder, they'll probably cast Fireball and then Quickened Fireball (every Wizard takes Quicken Spell of course) for the same damage, taking up a 3rd level slot and a 7th level slot.

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